The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is??? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Bigger IS better. Yet the velocity is also important. How about 14 gallon jugs. Blew 4 sky high, split 2 more and went through all 14?  | |||
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| one of us |
By the way, that was with Whitworths revolver. I made the loads. But from now on he gets only 700 fps from me. He also has to come and cast his own boolits and I will lock his 296 in my safe!  His big guns only get Bullseye or Unique from now on. I will have a very hard time making his .50 Alaskan shoot that slow. All he needs is a flat nose! I also have a good slingshot. I have a real good spear too!  | |||
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| one of us |
Yeah, you are right because I made the loads. But there was one gun that even my loads pulled with. Forgive me for forgetting which. I do know we had trouble. | |||
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Hey flat top, bfrshooter just put the picture up of the .475 test we did and it went through 14 and would have gone through 20. On top of that, the splash was huge, destroying completely the first 4. I doubt your 405 will come close. So, how many have you managed to punch through? We even video taped the test. I'm waiting...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| Moderator |
Why are you stroking yourself? Where is this complex coming from? You have NEVER been one to chronograph loads and now all of a sudden it's important. Why is it that even John Linebaugh recommends 1,200 fps as the high end? Our velocities end up where they end up, with accuracy being the most important factor. I don't think deer are particularly hard to kill. Put the bullet in the right place, and go collect your deer. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| one of us |
OK, I will make all loads to 1200 fps.  | |||
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| One of Us |
As a point of pure curiosity, if that is your belief, why all the brouhaha over the 454, 475, and 500 JRH? In my estimation, hogs are easier to kill than deer. And I have shot a lot of both... maybe not with a handgun, but to me that matters not. Your point about bullet placement is right on. | |||
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| Moderator |
I completely disagree that hogs are easier to kill than deer. They are a hell-of-a-lot denser in construction, and heavier boned, than deer. If it's a boar and it has a gristle plate, it's even tougher. I am not saying that they are bullet proof by any stretch, but they are way more substantial than thinly built deer in my estimation. I too kill a lot of hogs a year -- mostly with handguns. No brouhaha from me about the .454 as I have never been a fan. A .45 Colt loaded properly will do everything a .454 will in my opinion. Why the bigger calibers? They're fun to shoot, a challenge to master, and they make really big holes. If that isn't enough, all of mine are inherently accurate. So why not? But there is still no replacement for placement...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| one of us |
Whitworth knows I am just pulling his chain and I would never give up accuracy. He asked what happens with my velocity at a longer range and I said YES, it will be less effective at the same POI on the deer. I dearly wish a boolit would never slow down. I have never found a magic gun so I adjust what is needed. Whitworth knows I went to a jacketed bullet in the 45-70 once and a too soft boolit the next time and damage was too much but the hard cast was too hard. It all comes down to adjusting the boolit alloy. Just what is the problem? | |||
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| Moderator |
Oh, so you're going to start using your chronograph??  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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One of Us |
Whitworth has already shot completely through 14, 1 gallon jugs of water and couldn't catch the bullet. I don't think that 20 jugs is out of the question _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
bfr; Other than the Lee Factory Crimp die suggestion, I have been turning down expander plugs for over 40 years....probably even more than that, but, I do not want to give away my age, because some here will think I am an old fart...and that would really hurt my feelings!  we are just the opposite....my guns shoot terribly, but my superb skills make up for that).  | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit; What was the velocity of your loads and the weight of the bullet? I am still working on that horse!!!  | |||
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| one of us |
NO LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE FROM ME, hate the things. They size brass AND boolits. And I am an old fart, be 73 soon. Use Hornady dies and see what decent dies do. The next would be special BR dies. My guns will out shoot me over and over and that is what I want. I could throw my guns on the bench and they would hit where pointed. The stupid P.O.C. behind the grip is the problem! | |||
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| One of Us |
bfr; Put your bifocals on and read what I wrote....cylindrcal grind the sizing ring in the Lee Factory Crimp die to + .0005 over the nominal diameter of your "loaded" cartridge...this will eliminate the sizing effect, yet, allow the cartridge to center for the crimping operation....it works extremely well!!!! The Lee "crimp" is absolutely the best I have found to date for straight wall cases, and I use them exclusively in my handgun and straight wall rifle cases. One you learn to use them correctly...they apply a uniform crimp where as the yeild and compression resistants are unequaled by any other type of crimp or die. As far as factory made dies...I use only RCBS...always have and always will. As far as Benchrest dies...I was a competitive Benchrest shooter for many, many years, and have an excellent working knowledge of custom hand die sets. I must have a garbage can full of them in my loading room!.... | |||
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| Moderator |
I have a .500 Linebaugh load that clocks a scorching 1,100 fps that will shame even that .475 load. What does it matter what the velocity is? I thought you said you can beat whatever I have -- gettin' cold feet?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
whit; proof is on the way...email sent. | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit; As you can see by what I sent you, our 44 mag "powderpuff" load will get the job done with ease....no more is needed....and, if it is, I have a long way to go to get to the top load....I would imagine that I could load that thing to penetrate 54 one gallon jugs...but, I cant drink much milk anymore because it irritates my stomach. | |||
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I know how you fell, I'm lactose intollerant!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| Moderator |
Okay, here's the film clip again. 14 jugs, straight through. It would have gone through 20 had we had 20 jugs. The mighty .475 Linebaugh......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Just in off the Sports Wire, "NO NEED FOR THE MAGIC VELOCITY IF YOU USE THE PIXIE DUST"  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
14 and still going........ _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
That's the same bullet/load combination that beat the (expensive) .470 Nitro Express loaded with solids (at 2,150 fps) that we pitted against the .475 in wet newsprint testing a couple of years ago. It is a hard combo to beat. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit...and the load and photos I sent you is the same load that beat the 50mm Howitzer in a heads up test that we conducted at Fort Leonard Wood Missouri. | |||
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| Moderator |
I don't doubt it! Heads up? Are you a drag racer by chance? I love conducting water jug tests, but it's so damn hard to locate enough in a reasonable amount of time."Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit; Yes, the mighty 44 mag can out penetrate just about anything....Remember the bunker buster bombs of WWII? Need I sat more?  I am "involved" in drag racing, but, I am not a "drag racer". I have...and I am speaking literally ...hundreds of one gallon plastic jugs. I have a source. Thats why we use them for most of our comparative testing. I would like to build a "box" and set it up with wet newsprint, bone etc, but, we cannot get "animal parts" like shoudler bones and such here.....so, we just have to use what is available. From what I have heard and read, from folks who have used the jugs for testing, and, who have regularly shot large North American game animals: The penetration of 9 jugs by a large bore rifle or handgun is enough to do the deed on any large game animal....whether that is true or not, I cannot say. | |||
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| Moderator |
Are you saying that the .44 magnum was used as a bunker buster in WWII -- even though it was introduced 11 years after the war? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit; No...I am saying that if you compare the penetration of the bunker buster to that of the 44mag....the buster dropped from 30,000 ft, and the 44 mag fired from 30,000 ft, that the mighty 44 mag out penetrates the bunker buster. Its all "fizziks", and just goes to prove my point about the larger the "bullet" the less penetration that can be had. | |||
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| one of us |
That is true. What counts is what happens to the first jugs and whether you get enough penetration to go through the animal. You don't need 14 to 20 jug penetration. Penetration tests are only that---tests. Blowing up only one jug does not sit well with me, four would do more damage inside an animal but on deer with the .44, two is plenty. Nothing you can shoot at equals an animal. Even ballistic gel will hold a secondary wound channel that has little affect inside an animal. Whitworth was here one day and I told him to shoot through a 16" tree. He looked at me funny so I shot my .45 Colt through it. He was amazed so he shot his .475 through it. That does not mean my .45 kills as good as his .475---it doesn't by a long shot. You still need energy applied correctly in the right place. I do not believe in energy figures or velocity figures, I believe in boolit work at the proper time and place. | |||
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| One of Us |
bfr; I sent Whit some photos of our "test" with the 44 mag...a 405 grain bullet...at 1020 fps (chrono'd). The bullet penetrated in a "straight" line through 13 jugs...was trapped by the 13th. The first four jugs were spit open by the impact. In other tests, we sent that same bullet through a 2" aged/seasoned (very hard) walnut plank...very close grain. The same load penetrated the plank and went through nine jugs never to be found. A friend of mine who developed this heavy bullet, low velocity load, and who by the way lived and hunted big game in Alaska, said that this load would do the trick at handgun range (out out 50-60 yards or so), on anything that he had ever encountered. The real plus to this load, is that it shoots like a 44 Special, and recovery for second shot is very fast. I love this "creampuff" load. It will stop anything, and is easy to shoot "controllably"...what more could one ask for? I learned a long, long time ago by hunting deer, that it does not take a full steam handload to kill a deer. I have taken deer with the 45 ACP and the 44 Special, and they did just fine....no issues....no drama! My go to load for the 44 mag had been a 250 Kieth at 1000 fps for years...it did just fine. The load I want to try now is the 325 grain at 1063...very accurate...very flat shooting out to 100 yards. The topic of this thread...the magic velocity: From what I have garnered over the years playing with velocities in the 44 mag is that the magic velocity is between 1000 and 1100 fps. The weight of the bullet should match the game (the larger the game, the heavier the bullet), but, the velocities that those bullets are pushed at should remain within the 1000 to 1100 parameter for decent penetration....all the results that I have experienced show me that this is true. This is why, I feel that the 44 mag is all I need for anything I may ever encounter...anywhere. Are the "bigger bores" better....I guess that depends on how dead you want to kill something. For me, dead is dead. | |||
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| Moderator |
Here is the aftermath video......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
Whit; You are truly the Steven Spielburg of the handgun forum!!! | |||
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| Moderator |
Hey, I've been called worse -- a lot worse...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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one of us |
Hay by me at one time....lol.. Did bfrshooter say energy... If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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| Moderator |
Yeah, I was going to pretend I didn't see that! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| Moderator |
I guess that would depend on the application being applied and the applicator used to apply the application. Is that clear?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
....I thought "wound trauma" is what killed...from the affects of a bullet. Maybe things have changed with these new fangled wide meplat bullets. | |||
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| One of Us |
Pixie Dust is recomended............. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
.........do I sprinkle the pixie dust on the bullet or mix it in with the powder....and where do I get that stuff, anyway?!?!?! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting Anybody Know What The Magic Velocity is???
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