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Originally posted by tradmark: believe alot of people take a position and see what supports it, that's why science has it's methods, to do our best to alleviate those biases.

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Originally posted by tradmark:
and......discussing those differences in experiences is fun, except when doing so with crusty ole' boys that have some experience, a god complex and keyboard courage, then get irritated and attack, not discuss, when someone disagrees.

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Originally posted by tradmark:
and......discussing those differences in experiences is fun, except when doing so with crusty ole' boys that have some experience, a god complex and keyboard courage, then get irritated and attack, not discuss, when someone disagrees.

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Posted 27 December 2010 18:53 Hide Post
bfr; I have heard that WV deer are very easy to shoot with expanding bullets. To have deer that will actually work with you, and stand precisely where you need them to stand for perfect expansion at a set velocity is something that we dont encounter up here. Our deer are ornery...hoodlums....outlaws, and will place themselves at the darnest distances just to avoid a properly expanding bullet! Thats why I have to use wide meplat hardcast...there is no telling at what distance I will have to take my shot, but, I know that regardless of the distance (or velocity), the wide meplat hardcast will perform uniformily...one hole in...one hole out.

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What in God's name are you talking about?

You may be hearing me grind my teeth, but it's because of the inconsistency of your posts -- one moment energy is relevant, the next "you don't believe in it." Well? Which one is it? fishing

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Posted 27 December 2010 22:24 Hide Post
bfr; I do not shoot deer with handguns at 100 yards (thats what rifles are for)....my shots are always within 50 to 60 yards at most. I do not hang scopes on my handguns, and my barrels are 5 1/2" max...iron sights....always have been, always will be. I try to keep in mind that "handgun" hunting is just that...you know....hunting with a "handgun"...not a short rifle! I favor the high shoulder shot, so I get the same performance regardless of distance. I have on occasion taken frontal chest shots and the deer dropped soon after. On only one occasion did I ever take a heart/lung shot....the deer ran about 30 yards and dropped. My cast loads are always around 1000 fps or so, and have always performed as expected with wide meplat cast bullets, and even the old 250 Kieth. When I first started handgun hunting I shot jacketed expanding bullets at high velocities, and had nothing but inconsistant performance. A buddy of mine was a cast shooter, talked me in to changing over, and I havent looked back since...that was over 30+ years ago.

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Originally posted by michael458:
sam

I am afraid that you are 100% correct!


JWP

Well you handgun boys have been trying to tell us hard heads for years about flat meplats! You guys are pretty close on meplat size.

I remember you, me , Whit talking about penetration dropping off at 80% meplat, which it does, starts at 75% in fact with rifles. Now, also with each increase of 5% over 60% meplat, we start see start seeing more trauma transfered to the target too, just as both of you said a long time ago.

Validated!

Michael

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Originally posted by flat top:
...........Ok, I hate to ask this question, and maybe I should just start another thread, but, what is the "magic" meplat?

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Originally posted by tradmark:
so jwp, according to the beartooth bullet calculator and your own summations, which i admire. a flat meplat .44 mag wouldn't show any real difference in wound channel size and real time incapacitation versus the largest meplat 500 linebaugh load available.........hmmm.

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Posted 27 December 2010 23:20 Hide Post
Jim, go back and read the two consecutive posts where you said: "NO, it was the energy transmitted because of the heavier boolit that maintained velocity better." And then you said: "Energy must be applied inside the animal in the correct way at the correct time."

A post or two later you said: "There is no way to measure energy transfer and that is not what I try to explain because I do not believe in it."

Now, is it clear where my confusion lies? I merely pointed out a rather obvious inconsistency, and you made it into loading ammo at 700 fps...... Confused

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Posted 28 December 2010 04:49 Hide Post
One can place a 22lr into a deers lungs and kill it so any thing that is bigger then that well get the job done.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:

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Posted 27 December 2010 23:20 Hide Post
Jim, go back and read the two consecutive posts where you said: "NO, it was the energy transmitted because of the heavier boolit that maintained velocity better." And then you said: "Energy must be applied inside the animal in the correct way at the correct time."

A post or two later you said: "There is no way to measure energy transfer and that is not what I try to explain because I do not believe in it."

Now, is it clear where my confusion lies? I merely pointed out a rather obvious inconsistency, and you made it into loading ammo at 700 fps...... Confused

This is entirely true and if you read back over and over, it is not how much energy there is, it is how the boolit applies what it has. The boolit can be slower with less energy so if you have a little expansion, the boolit will apply what it has where you want it.
Speed the boolit up and a little expansion will let the boolit apply more of what it has in the correct place instead of zipping through.
It has nothing to do with how much energy a boolit has or how much muzzle energy or velocity it has, it is where what is needed is applied.
Every single post I have made is based on soft tissue shots with very hard boolits.
I just don't know why it is so hard to understand that as you change velocities, you should change the alloy a little to take advantage of what energy it has in the correct place in whatever animal you are hunting.
Larger animals can use a harder and faster boolit because somewhere inside, the boolit has reached optimum damage.
Too slow with a hard boolit means you wait for bleed out. Soften the nose and bleed out is faster.
Nobody can dispute that a slight mushroom on a boolit kills faster.
What I have been saying all along is that at the correct velocity range, a flat nose needs NO expansion and the boolit can be very hard.
It has not a single thing to do with how much energy a boolit has but how what it has is applied inside an animal.
Boolits NEED energy and if that was not the case, the blunt arrow that weighs 700 gr with 80 ft pounds of energy should blow a huge hole in a deer. In fact, it would probably bounce off after crushing some ribs. The deer might die in the end but do you have meat?

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Boolits NEED energy and if that was not the case, the blunt arrow that weighs 700 gr with 80 ft pounds of energy should blow a huge hole in a deer. In fact, it would probably bounce off after crushing some ribs. The deer might die in the end but do you have meat?

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You are joking, right?
It was common for squirrel hunters and poachers in PA to shoot at deer with a .22. I can count back at least 10 deer I killed there that had .22 bullets healed in gristle on the insides of rib cages. It is scary to find a lump so I cut them open to find a bullet.
How about arrows? I shot one deer here and gave it away. The guy cleaning the deer found an arrow in the chest cavity near the heart and almost cut himself. I don't have that arrow but I have two removed from two other deer. These were in the chest cavities and the deer were fine when I shot them, like nothing happened to them. Kind of strange that 6" of arrow and broad heads were inside the deer and they healed up.

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Originally posted by tradmark:
here's the difference jwp, until pushed, first shot dropped my oryx on the spot, his ran 300 yards. you know my guide, go to the other site and ask him, that animal was bleeding out profusely and would've died on the spot, once again, the other oryx ran 300 yards and then some, mine never traveled over 20 yards my whole event didn't last even 1/4 of the time his did. once again for the retarded, i chose to push the issue and fire that many times, had i just left it alone for 1/2 an hour or 20 minutes it would've died on the spot, his would not have, therein is the difference summed up for the old and thick headed.


now answer the point i just posted above, you love to argue to shift the point away from your inconsistencies

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Originally posted by tradmark:
here's the difference jwp, until pushed, first shot dropped my oryx on the spot, his ran 300 yards. you know my guide, go to the other site and ask him, that animal was bleeding out profusely and would've died on the spot, once again, the other oryx ran 300 yards and then some, mine never traveled over 20 yards my whole event didn't last even 1/4 of the time his did. once again for the retarded, i chose to push the issue and fire that many times, had i just left it alone for 1/2 an hour or 20 minutes it would've died on the spot, his would not have, therein is the difference summed up for the old and thick headed.


now answer the point i just posted above, you love to argue to shift the point away from your inconsistencies

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Posted 28 December 2010 19:03 Hide Post
bfr; I knew an old timer here named Flo...I had hunted with him for most of my life...he shot over 70 deer with a single shot 22lr, and all were one shot kills. I witnessed a number of those kills. He had photos of every deer he had taken in his lifetime, and all but two were with the 22lr. Those other two were taken with a 30-30....which Flo felt was too much gun for deer. Its not the size of the bullet, but, where you put it that counts.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:

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Posted 28 December 2010 19:03 Hide Post
bfr; I knew an old timer here named Flo...I had hunted with him for most of my life...he shot over 70 deer with a single shot 22lr, and all were one shot kills. I witnessed a number of those kills. He had photos of every deer he had taken in his lifetime, and all but two were with the 22lr. Those other two were taken with a 30-30....which Flo felt was too much gun for deer. Its not the size of the bullet, but, where you put it that counts.

Exactly right and the .22 even kills polar bears for Eskimo's. You still wander from the type of shots that go behind the shoulders through both lungs and I am afraid you will not recover deer hit there with a .22.
I have only, each and every post, talked about lung shots with no bones hit.

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Originally posted by flat top:
Whit!!!! This is no laughing matter...this is SERIOUS stuff!!!!