The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting hard cast bullets.....disappointed hunterGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| hard cast bullets.....disappointed hunter | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Being new to handgun hunting.....I asked for lots of advice recently when setting up my handgun. The bullets I decided on using were Federal CastCore 300 gr. and I had a chance to try them out for real this weekend. To say the least, I was horribly disappointed with the results and will not use them ever again. I seriously doubt I will ever shoot an animal with hard cast bullets again. To read the report, please click on the link below, but I would appreciate any feedback about the bullet performance to be posted in this thread. Thank you. http://forums.accuratereloadin...3411043/m/2561071631 _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | ||
|
| One of Us |
You need to match bullet hardness and pressure (velocity). Try the Laser-Cast ones, they have good load data. Rich | |||
|
| One of Us |
I can't say much as to the bullets performance, but it sounds like you did a great job and the pictures were excellant. Curtis | |||
|
| one of us |
ES You can never draw hard conclusions on only one animal. Were you present when the animal was gutted? If so what EXACTLY did the first bullet destroy? Some animals are just tough, and do not "play" by the rules. I have shot some animals that just dropped to the shot, and others that ran a considerable distance, using the same gun and bullet in both cases. My thoughts are if you had shot an expanding bullet, and got the same results, you would be now saying "next time I will use Hard Cast..." You cannot form a hard fact "basis" with only one animal killed... Think about this, I shot a giraffe with my 450 No2, using Solids. All rounds were good hits. It took 8 rounds to knock the giraffe down. A few days later I shot a giraffe with my 9,3x74R. Two rounds the giraffe was down... Also I will add that you did some mighty fine shooting. For big game do not give up on hard cast just yet. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
Moderator |
That is a great trophy and I congratulate you on a job well done. But, you cannot draw a conclusion on one animal. As I see it, your bullets performed as advertised. Had you punched a shoulder bone, the results obviously would have been different, and the animal would not have run off like it did. But, each animal is a law unto itself and they all react differently. This experience makes you an even more well-rounded hunter. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yall are correct that one cannot form a conclusion based on one instance. I just know how it made me feel, and it wasn't a good feeling. N I 450 No2, Yes, I was there when he was gutted. The lungs were pretty tore up and there was a perfect .44 hole in the heart, but I believe that was a result of the last shot. There's no doubt the first shot was double lung. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| one of us |
First, let me say that this is a fine animal and trophy. You shot well. That being said, I think the bullet performed as advertised. It appears that the errors were shooter errors. It looks like you made some incorrect assumptions. It appears you assumed the Oryx anatomy was like a whitetail deer, it is not. The heart is farther forward. You assumed that the Oryx is not 10 times tougher than an Elk, which I believe they are. You also assumed "knockdown power" which doesn't exist, as you saw. The one that I think really got you to thinking was when you assumed the Oryx was more dead than it was when you approached it. If you had let it lay until you KNEW it was dead, you would feel better about it. If I sound too critical, I apologize. That is not the true intent. It was a learning experience, and a darned rewarding one. I just hate it when the darned animals don't cooperate properly. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| One of Us |
One animal - with a any bullet - is too little to make a conclution. 15 - then you can start thinking of make a conclution. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm thinking of trying these bullets on a couple whitetail does this fall to see how they do. I appreciate the constructive criticism. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| one of us |
I have killed deer and pig with 240gr cast SWC with good results, but I do think for Texas deer that a 240 SP or HP will kill them a little quicker. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
| one of us |
BY THE WAY.....the most important part......since I know you will graduate, CONGRATULATIONS on that front! That took more effort than the rest of this combined. I have a daughter that graduated with a degree in economics last December and one that is a Junior, so I know how proud your parents must be. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thank you very much. It's hard to believe I'm almost done. The last 4 years FLEW by!! _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| One of Us |
CONGRATULATIONS on your hunt. And thanks for the pics and story. Loved it all! I intend to try some hard cast on deer this fall here in Texas. Richard | |||
|
One of Us |
So, where's the problem with the bullets? Seems that they did as the were designed to do, tear stuff up. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with jwp. That, and oryx are tough. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well.....you are somewhat correct. However, I don't believe they are anywhere near as effective as an expanding bullet. I think the wound channel created by a cast bullet is just too clean and neat. To me, no animal should live for an hour after a double lung shot. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| One of Us |
Your experience makes sense to me - hard cast drills tiny holes. You get excellent penetration, but you don't get a wide wound channel. Well, at least have an OK day  | |||
|
| Moderator |
It wasn't supposed to expand. You want bigger holes, you need to step up in caliber. I have seen plenty of expanding jacketed bullets fail to expand at handgun velocities. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Congradulations on your trophy and your degree.What a present!You have some great parents there.Like most have said keep shooting.I am a running gear type of guy,and we can only guess what would have happened had the shot been placed a little different.Take out the front gears and the rear can only do so much.Good luck. "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
|
| One of Us |
no offense but i've not seen a monumental difference in wound channel from my .475 to my .44 mag. i've shot numerous hogs with both and just didn't see a huge difference, that said, i didn't see a huge difference in wound channel with a solid on a hog from my .375 with tons more velocity, however, i did see massive wound channels with expandables in the .375 and i know everyone will chime in with handgun vs. rifle comments but i do see bigger wound channels with expandables and they just have to be matched properly to size game and velocity of the revolver, i have yet to see a barnes handgun xpb handgun bullet not open up and provide an incredible wound channel even on game as large as elk. i will be using them on even bigger game soon to see how they do. i guess it all comes down to our different experiences. my bud's elk ran alot longer with a hardcast from his .500 smith which did as it should than the elk from a .460 with a 275 grain barnes. only 2 animals for sure but the wound channels were noticeably different. | |||
|
| One of Us |
in short, to use expandables well, you need velocity imho and pick the proper bullet, with hardcasts, you still gotta pick the proper meplat and hardness, and why it's hard (i.e. water dropped etc.) with the right velocity. velocity with the hardcast can definitely hinder things the same as it can with an expandable if you go to high on the velocity. | |||
|
one of us |
I had a similar experience to yours this spring when I shot a bear with hard-cast bullets out of my .45 Colt. When I posted about my experience, it led to a 70+ pages of comments. From all of that, I came to a couple of conclusions. Cast bullets will reliably penetrate at handgun velocities 99% of the time, which is why so many of the experienced handgun hunters swear by them. By the same token, they do not create that big of a wound channel, so unless you hit the CNS or the heart, you're going to have to wait a while for something to bleed out. It's not like making a double lung shot on something with a rifle where it dies within a minute or two. I think for large (and for me that would be animals over 500 pounds or so) animals, cast bullets probably are the way to go in a revolver. But for small to medium sized animals, I'm going back to jacketed bullets. I just picked up five boxes of 300 grain Partition HG's. That bullet has a metplat of .3 inches, so even if it fails to expand, it's still going to do some damage. I use a Ruger .44 Carbine for whitetails in the woods and black bear over bait. The 250 gr. Partition HG in that rifle does a lot of damage when it hits and kills very quickly. In a revolver you're going to lose some velocity, but I would guess that you're still going to see significant increase in the size of wound channel, and not be in any danger of not getting sufficient penetration. Pete Pete | |||
|
| Moderator |
The .44 mag is a .429 diameter. How big of a wound channel can one expect? Hardcast flat-nosed bullets in the larger calibers do indeed create quite impressive wound channels even on lighter game. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, .429, .430 if shooting hard cast (typically...). The almighty 475 is exactly .045"-.050" larger,(I am guessing... isn't the cast diameter for a .475 actually .476"?), leaving a .045"-.050" larger hole, all things being equal. As I see it, just ain't much; even if both expand to 1.5 diameters you get .645" and .714" or about 70 thousandths. I guess if you are a machinist that measurement is huge. I just don't see a big enough difference to justify the increased powder, recoil, muzzle blast, etc. Again: not badmouthing you for wanting what you want, simply stating my position. And thanks for not pinning some rather uncomplimentary nickname on me for taking a different view. You are much kinder than some on here, Marko! | |||
|
| One of Us |
whitworth doesn't bad mouth and he just states his observations based on his experiences. i guess we'll have to find out what results are found with different calibers and meplats and the best way to do that is a hunt.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
The OP's experiences pretty much mirror my own and a lot of other handgun hunters I knew in in Alaska. Non-expanding cast bullets with a large meplat will kill, and anyone who says otherwise has little hunting experience. But in our experience, expanding bullets work better on most game. Heavy-for-caliber jacketed bullets - the right ones - will expand while giving deep penetration. Modern jacketed bullets work. A 0.75" hole is larger than a 0.430" hole. All one needs is complete penetration, more is wasted. Expanding bullets simply kill better - millions of dead game animals prove it. Buffalo hunters from the 1870s used expanding bullets from .40 to .50 caliber to kill many millions of animals. No complaints there. Use "hard cast" bullets if you want, if you are cheap, or if you have some agenda to further. Use expanding bullets if you can use the right ones and can make humane shots. If you can do neither, then stay out of the woods. . | |||
|
One of Us |
There is sometimes no telling how an animal can take this hit and survive as well as this one did. But don't give up. I personally prefer hard cast bullets in my hunting handguns. Take a look at Randy Garrett's website some time. His hard cast loads are tough medicine. I shot a buffalo in Argentina with my 45-70 using a 405 grain hard cast bullet and he ran about 75 yards and died. My hunting pal shot one with his 500 S&W revolver and it dropped on the spot. Hard cast, jacketed, solid copper...all work if the shot hits the right spot, and that is sometimes easier said than done. "When you play, play hard; when you work, don't play at all." Theodore Roosevelt | |||
|
| Moderator |
I have to respectfully disagee. The key to your argument is "complete penetration." I have seen too many jacket expanding bullets fail to achieve complete penetration. Not a problem with a good flat-nosed, hardcast. I tend to like expanding bullets in .44 mag as I think it is on the small side. That's just not the case with the .475 and the half-inchers, and it becomes readily apparent when you use them in the field enough. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
Should have lubed them Alox. Products springing from the mind of Richard Lee produce quick kills on everything.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Seems to me that in the last 15 years or so the cult of hardcast has come to power. I used to catch a lot of flak for not using holy WFN hardcast in my 45-70 when hunting Elk - supposedly modern Elk are a lot tougher. The cult seems even stronger when it comes to handguns. I'm happy for casters as they are able to get a decent profit from those pretty lbt-style hardcast bullets. Sometimes "forum" wisdom, dominated by the cult, isn't very helpful. I think the OP should be congratulated for objectively posting his experiences so that the rest of us unwashed can learn something. Well, at least have an OK day | |||
|
| Moderator |
The same argument could be made about the KoolAde drinking jacketed bullet (talk about a cult) set. You'll notice that more than a few experienced handgun hunters use flat-nosed hardcast bullets and it's not because they are cheaper, they actually work. Now if you are hunting primarily with a smallish .429 magnum, I can understand the need for expansion, but when you move up to the bigger calibers, it really isn't necessary. Now if you would like to discuss this in a civil manner, I would suggest taking a different attitude. Both bullet types have their place in the hunting fields. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
|
| One of Us |
"Seems to me that in the last 15 years or so the cult of hardcast has come to power. I used to catch a lot of flak for not using holy WFN hardcast in my 45-70 when hunting Elk - supposedly modern Elk are a lot tougher." Well animals aren't any tougher and they were taken for years by so called under powered cast loads long before a jacketed bullet was thought about.I don't know but I feel confident in thinking sometime or another a frontiersman or cowboy dispatched just about everything in NA with an underpowered cast load. If this OP had of been with a jacketed bullet and he was willing to throwem all away and do something different would we be having the same discussion?One animal does not a decisive decission make.If that were so we would change vehicles according to what manufacturer won on Sunday. "If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence,try orderin' someone else's dog around" unknown cowboy | |||
|
| Moderator |
Sounds like ES hit the bull higher than he should have. I do not say this to disparage ES, just based on what I read from his report. I have shot too many animals with cast bullets of various calibers, weights and styles to believe for one moment these bullets do not work well. I seriously doubt a jacketed bullet would have dispatched the bull any quicker had it hit the same spot from the same angle; but maybe. It is very hard to tell based on a single animal. Besides, I would never recommend shooting oryx with a JHP; rather a tough JSP if jackets were required. I am glad he got his oryx; proud for him for graduating, and hope after some water goes under the bridge, he will be willing to try cast bullets again when the game and hunting conditions require complete penetration. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You can plainly see my first shot in this picture.....right on the the line that divides the bottom 1/3 of the chest. I don't think it was too high.  _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've started a new thread about finding a good expanding bullet to use. I'd appreciate it if yall could make some comments..... http://forums.accuratereloadin...741073631#3741073631 Thank you. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| Moderator |
I stand corrected, except for the following statement; "I shoot him high at the back of the ribs since we are above him on the dam and he is quartering away". So if your bullet exited on the right side as shown in the photo, you very well could have been too high in the lungs. Oryx have tremendous lung capacity and I would not expect a high lung shot to have much effect. Which side did you shoot him on? If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The statement you quoted me on was describing my second and third shots. The shot you are looking at in the picture above is the entry of my first shot. The exit is in the exact same place on the opposite side. There is no doubt whatsoever it went thru both lungs. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
|
| Moderator |
Not trying to argue, just wasn't there to see how things unfolded. My eland took a 300 grain slug through the lungs and ran a long way. I've been where you were and know how it feels. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Eland Slayer, First off congrats on the upcoming graduation, there is a LOT more to sticking it out and making it through for a degree than meets the eye. Also that is one fine example of the species you got yourself, despite the BS from the one fellow. As to the shot placement, your right, I would have figured it to be a great spot myself. However as have you learned, I learned that MY thought on where things should be aren't always in line with where they actually are. I went on a ram hunt this past May. Knowing about what it was going to entail, I was more or less going with some co-workers, and my hunting bud and very close friend, just to get out and do something different. This was strictly an archery hunt and I was not expecting much out of the latter part of that. When I shot this ram,  he was at 22yards, and ever so slightly quartering away. I put my pi right in his onside armpit, and touched the release. Well from the time I released the arrow until it got there he had moved maybe a half step which still resulted in me hitting what I thought was a double lung shot. I watched him staggering off and heard what I thought was him in his last effort. Then after waiting some 30-45 minutes I went to find my arrow and my ram. Didn't take the bow since I was VERY confident in the shot. What I found was the ram still standing, some 60yds from the initial hit. He was pretty sick but still up on his feet. It took a second shot, which is visible in the pic, which was a hard quartering shot from above down through the offside shoulder to do him in. What I later found out was that these like yours have the vital area much more forward than a deer, and they are MUCH more tenacious than I would have ever given them credit for being. In fact there were quite a few more that weekend that learned the same thing. Others who shot for the shoulder had them drop within seconds. As for the cast bullets, I myself have only started using them in earnest over the past couple of years. I have found that they do a much better job IMO for me, when they hit something solid like the shoulder. Is this necessary for every critter, no, but for the hogs I use them on it sure does seem to drop more on the spot than when shooting for a double lung. In fact I took down a big boar a few weeks ago which took 4 shots from my 454 using the 265gr Cast Performance bullets. I do admit one of them wasn't a good one, but the others in my mind should have done him in very quickly. Does this mean the bullets weren't a good choice, not in my mind. It simply showed me again that even with a good hit, some critters just seem to be able to soak it up and keep on trucking. Congrats again on both the graduation and the trophy. Mike / Tx | |||
|
| One of Us |
No, I am 100% correct, if the lungs were " The lungs were pretty tore up " as you started then there is no problem with the bullets. I have taken several truck loads of game with wide flat point hard cast bullet without "DRAMA". Here are a few;     Here is a photo of the damage to a Hog created by a wide flat point hard cast  Mayby my "Hard Cast Bullets" had Pixie Dust put on them before I bought them, since I haved experienced "NO DRAMA" with them
Mike, is spot on the vitails are much farther forward than one would expect _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting hard cast bullets.....disappointed hunter
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia