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| One of Us |
that said, a perfectly placed hardcast will surely kill the animal. | |||
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One of Us |
The simple fact is a 25 cents diameter through the heart is enough and will kill as quickly as a silver dollars size hole through the heart. I have tested a lot of the XPB bullets and some of them is certain calibers I like and some of them in a few calibers I do not like and was dissapointed in their performance. Did you notice the size of the wound channel that Ccottonstalk got with his 45 Colt using a wide Meplat Hard Cast? If not I will post it. You continued to shoot and that was the correft thing to do. But the results were much the same as Eland Slayers despite the larger diameter expansion, which proves my point The wound in Cottonstalks Deer
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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yup, if you go through the heart, however, you cant' use the same logic and then imply there's really a difference b/w a .44 mag and .45 colt based on caliber size, and the same thing to be said b/w .475 and .454. my point has always been that they'll all do the job and if you need a bigger hole, you don't necessarily need a bigger caliber, sometimes just using the right bullet will do the same. so for the life of me i can't understand how .01" in diameter on a meplat is significant or the magical .023" matters b/w calibers but literally doubling the size of the hole doesn't. that's just not consistent. | |||
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also, and this is just basic trauma surgery anatomy type info, is that tissue varies, the heart muscle has a tendency to rupture, lung tissue does not, so what appears to be the magic of a big bore bullet making a huge hole is simply the heart muscle rupturing open as it does in so many ways, not all tissue does that so in a nutshell, the size of a hole through a heart is indicative of the amount of muscle, where exactly it's hit. i've had people shot in the heart that came through during a pathology rotation and the hole size in the heart was not always indicative of caliber but of placement, caliber, and dare i say it......velocity. | |||
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If you can't see the difference in the wound channels by increaseing the meplat, well I am at a loss because it is there. The difference in time of death betwwen a 475 and a 45 is not what I am talking about when I say that there is a difference in the 2. I am talking about the visual reaction when a large animal is hit. It is visable. Either will kill for sure and for certain Shoot enough game with enough different calibers and bullet and I believe that you will understand at some point. There is most certainly a visual difference in impact. I am not a light for caliber fan, but I one time I was and over the years have realized the difference. Every animal is a law unto its self as to how it will react to being shot. Every wound channelo is not exactly alike in every animal even when shot with the same load _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I prefer the added penetration of hard cast and do not want to sacrifice penetration fo expansion. Personaly I would not be happy recovering abullet from a 454 in animal of that size. I go up in meplat and caliber to get the wound channel size up and then it's all about penetration But that's just me  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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well on the shot into the rock slab where it was lying you would've never ever gotta any bullet to exit on that one unless ya got something that'll penetrate a few feet of rock. two, everyone at the processors was suprised including our guide (who is a dedicated handgun hunter) were surprised it penetrated the spine fully and they had seen plenty of larger calibers hung up in the spine on these animals. two, going up in caliber with hardcast you're not gonna match the wound channel these provide. no consistency in your posts, first a bullet doubling the diameter and that doesn't matter but somehow it does with and icrease of 2 hundredths' of an inch. wow. velocity will increase it as well as long as the bullet stays together. lots of much larger rifle calibers have been recovered out of these animals so there's certainly no shame in it. wish i was using it when my hardcasts blew up on an elk shoulder a few years ago. | |||
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The bullet does not ned to penetrate rock to leave a hole in the hide. One can place a hide on a rock and hit it hared enough with a hamer and a hole will be in the hide Every one was amazed at the 3 1/2 to 4 inches diameter of lung tissue missing on this Fallow shot with the 500 JRH and hard cast  Here is an excellent write up on hard cast bullets and resulting wound channels http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm Your loads were about 1600 FPS is what I believe that you stated With a hard cast we can expect the following; Wound channel diameter of 1.48" with a bullet with a meplat diameter of .370", and a striking velocity of 1600 fps. Wound channel calculator here; http://www.beartoothbullets.co....htm?v2=1600&v1=.370 This about what one will expereince in the real world give or take a little _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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keep posting the saaaaaaaaaame old stuff. i've read all that. the last fallow i shot with these bullets, everyone was amazed that the exit wound was larger than my fist and the spine was broken as well, and i didn't hit the spine. dead is dead, but you preach dogma of which you will argue to the death if someone disagrees. you sure as hell arent' the only one here with big game shooting experience. fact is there's two ways to reach the same end, both efficiently and sometimes one's better than the other, sometimes the reverse is true. that's why we all "discuss" it. i've read all the wound calculator and most of this is the saaaaaaame stuff you've always posted. hammer and hide, it's all part of the angle of incidence and i'm sure you have a great grasp on that aspect of physics dontcha. | |||
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| Moderator |
tradmark, you may want to get your keyboard checked out; that "a" key seems to be sticking there bub. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Those jacketed bullets seem to rely heavily on velocity to work -- then they may or may not. You can slow that cast bullet down and it will still punch through. The Punch bullet will only really out penetrate a good hardcast bullet if you insist on driving them to Casull-like velocities. I used to always strive for max speed, but not so much any more....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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whitworth, very true, and a good point, sometimes though i'd just rather have more damage imho if i'm sure i'm gonna get the penetration, with the barnes it's by far the most reliable bullet and i am extatic that it has thus for myself and all my friends that have used them not need to be driven hard to open and be reliable and at the same time can be driven as hard as a 460 can drive them and hold together. to some that's not a trade off they want to make, for me on this size animal it's one i chose to make and one my guide who's very experience said he'd recommend as well. just different ways to sink a battleship. | |||
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When 2+2 stops being 4 I'll post something different for you _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I have found, particularly in the bigger calibers like the .475 on up, that there is no real limit with regards to damage using a good hardcast bullet with a wide meplat. They flat out wreck the innards, and always exit and that is definitely good enough for me. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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and, lost in all this is the fact that the original poster was discussing his disappointment in performance in his opinion of 44 mag hardcast performance not 475 performance. that said, barnes bullets in your 475 would do even more damage, if whatcha get is fine, then great, keep on truckin'. jwp 2 + 2 is 4 and 3 + 3 is 6. the same points the same examples the argumentative nature and attitude still get old but please continue to make them by all means. | |||
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| Moderator |
In measuring a wound channel many folks seem to overlook that the length of the wound channel (and whether or not there is an exit), also needs to be factored into the "damage" equation. That said, I may get a bigger primary wound channel intially, but it may not go nearly as far or deep. To me if there is no exit, my bullet failed to perform to my expectations. No expansion needed in .475 on up IMHO. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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What is lost is that you used a larger than 44 caliber with expanding all cooper bullet and still had to shoot the animal 4 times Not much different results than the 44 with hard cast yet you and many blamed the bullet. What is the excuse this time, both of you shot your Oryx 4 times. doesn't look like all of the expansion helped you any _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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the only thing lost, and perhaps this is a reading comprehension thing, is that i didn't HAVE to shoot it 4 times, i very very clearly stated the recent experiences many had shooting these with larger calibers and i chose to shoot it that many times. shot until it quit moving at all and i readily admitted the limitation on the second shot and that it was an attempt on a spine shot that didn't hit the spine and wasn't in the vitals, what's lost here is that it was dropped on the spot where it would've died and never ran off through the woods to perhaps not be found for a while, not long before this at the ranch my bud shot his gemsbock in new mexico they had a guy shoot one with a smith 500 and a corbon 440 grain hardcast that ran off. it was found 3 weeks later by the guide he had used. that hunter didn't shoot again, i did. i did not ever post this as a comparison of calibers nor hardcast versus anything else, you took what you wanted from my post and pics at the other site and misrepresented it here to make your point when it clearly did not. four shots were fired, four were not required. btw, my friend that shot his gemsbock with a 300 weatherby and barnes bullets, hit a major artery coming off the heart and passed through both shoulders, that animal was next shot at over 400 yards after running with 3 working legs and that damage being done, i personally don't feel that dropping it on the spot and in the end the animal going a total of 25 yards is bad performance at all. in the end my bud's gemsbock was shot four times through the vitals, had they not walked up on it and just back off a few it would've taken one shot, he decided to keep shooting until it quit moving and fired four. it didn't require four. | |||
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Looks like you needed to shoot 4 times _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
tradmark: check your pm. | |||
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| One of Us |
if you're in anyway implying that no animals you've shot with a hardcast were still alive and able to run if pushed after 5 or 10 minutes then really you're just lying. it's simple hunter ethics to finish an animals as fast as possible if it's not completely still. how many animals that are large have you shot that ran off and died 5 or ten minutes later when ya tracked them, would ya shoot again if they were in sight and range? if they weren't and expired in 10 minutes or so would you somehow consider that a one shot kill? i've shot a buff not unlike the one in your sig years ago with a 460 weatherby and it ran off in the brush. shot dead through the vitals. maybe it lived 10 minutes, maybe only 2 who knows, but it was dead when we found it. having that happen you surely don't expect anyone to believe with your "vast" experience none of these large animals ever ran off and were found a 100 yards or so away, and surely you don't think ANY of your pistols produce more trauma to an animal hit in the vitals than the 460 weatherby do ya? | |||
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Let go from saying that you shot him 4 times but the animal didn't need to be shot 4 times. I post your exact words from your own post about the animal still try to get away and you shot him until he stopped. No one is saying that you should not have shot until he was finished. But to claim that your bullet were more effective because of so called expansion does not match the events The above rant is a bit confusing, I mean do you have a point?  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I'll tell ya one thing, I am really confused by all of this. It starts out that hard cast dont work, and then ends with jacketed bullets work, but it takes four shots!!! Am I missing something here? | |||
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| one of us |
No, not a thing. Each and every bullet works within it's design range. As velocity, distance or size of the animal changes, you need to change the boolit. Unless it has a flat nose of course. they work from 20 fps to 3000 fps!  | |||
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| One of Us |
bfr; Many bullets come with an operating parameter (velocity), and some dont. Many of the bullets used for large game (African) from major manufacturers... Woodleigh is one of them, will state the velocities that the bullet is made to work within. Properly alloyed cast bullets work at all velocities. I use cast in all my large bore handguns and rifles for North American game. I would use tough soft points (for lion), and monolithic solids for large African game. I use jacketed expanding bullets in my medium and small bores. Every bullet has its place in the scheme of things. I would not use a cast .224 bullet for groundhogs, prarie dogs, crow, or coyote at 300 yards, and I would not use jacketed expanding bullets in a large bore handgun. Where I see the difference in choice of use, is big bore versus medium and small bore. If you produce a big enough hole from the get go by using a large bore, there is no sense in giving up penetration to try and make the hole bigger....regardless of the size or ferocity of the game animal...except for the lion. Its ferocity is all out of proportion to its physical makeup...thus requiring a tough expanding jacketed bullet to make a decisive kill. | |||
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| Moderator |
Well said, Flat top! Yes, the big bores come pre-expanded....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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............some, more than others.  | |||
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| one of us |
Let us take a meplat of .335" (My boolit.)in the .44 and .375" in the .475 and shoot them at 1000 fps through an animal. WOW, that is .020" larger on each side. Does that mean I cut 10 times more tissue and arteries with the .475? Stop and think, it is ONLY .040" difference total. Measure the in and out holes, strange they are only boolit size. Look at the lungs, do you see a difference? NO. Speed up the .44 to between 1300 and 1400 fps and leave the .475 at 1000. Which lungs have more damage? Darn tootin, the .44. Now take the .475 up to 1300 to 1400 fps and which is better? I bet on the .475. Was it the meplat size? NO, it was the energy transmitted because of the heavier boolit that maintained velocity better. Now take both to 1700 fps, which kills better---NEITHER because they poke a caliber size hole and are too fast to transmit energy where needed. Take a hard WLN in the .44 and shoot a deer at 50 yards or less. Nice fast kill. The .475 does as good from 50 to 75 yards. But at 100 it acts like the .44 at 60 yards. Heavier boolits hold velocity longer and punch harder at longer range. Some of you still think energy is not needed, it really is but muzzle energy figures are useless. Book figures suck. Energy must be applied inside the animal in the correct way at the correct time. But I am stupid because the flat nose does the same at any velocity. Magic boolit! Nobody can prove that a hole .040" larger bleeds more. That must be a massive size larger hole. | |||
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| One of Us |
bfr; As I see it, energy is only a means of comparing one cartidge to another...What kills an animal is wound trauma. Wound trauma is a cumilitive effect of bullet mass, weight, shape, and momentum. We can all prove that mass, weight, shape, and momentum kills, because we can visually "see, and measure" the effects... (this is the standard of "proof" used by science...called "Scientific Measure"). We cannot prove that energy kills, or has any part in the process, because there is no way to see or measure the effect....no "material proof"...energy has no physical properties (weight, mass, etc) to measure it with. Some shooters feel that energy translates into "shock effect"...hydraulic (or hydrostatic....an incorrect term, but used often). I used to think that of my high speed 224 wildcat cartridges for years, but, in realty they just delivered mass, weight, shape and momentum in a different package...creating a different set of visual and wound measuremant effects, but, killing none-the-less. Energy is mathematical, theoretical, mystical.........and until energy can be measured on the game animals we are shooting, by the process of Scientific Measure we will never know for sure what part in the process it plays. | |||
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Since bfr shooter seems to believe that the meplat doesn't matter then why doesn't he shoot round nose? The is a seeable difference is the wound channel of a LFN and a WFN of the same caliber and speed _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Caliber sized hole at 1,700 fps? Are you kidding? Do you really think the meplat stops working because you sped the bullet up? Come on now, that is absurd. Energy is fantasy -- a figure that is calculated and not measured, or measurable. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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you'd have to shoot an insane amount of game, more than any one person, shooting max tags in any state of the exact same size, from the exact same angle to be able to tell that a wfn or a lfn created a measureable difference b/w the other. we all relate to our experiences and in ALL our cases, they are limited compared to what would be needed to make a scientifically sound statement, what we learned in our trauma surgery rotations b/w different bullet types and high velocity vs low velocity rounds hitting the human body were based off of thousands of case studies most coming from the military. NO ONE here has shot that much stuff. not even close. | |||
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You said it just right! There is no way to measure energy transfer and that is not what I try to explain because I do not believe in it. What I see is the change in internal damage caused by velocity changes with a hard FN boolit. Nothing at all to do with energy transfer, just the velocity point where the boolit does more work inside. Change the alloy for expansion and you can work all around where the hard boolit works. JWP asks about a RN boolit and yes, the right alloy and expansion will make them also a good boolit but I would never shoot any deer with a hard RN. Save those for large, dangerous game. I can make any boolit do what I want it to at every velocity but the very hard, non deforming, FN boolit always works best at a certain range. Notice how Whitworth grinds his teeth when I said I will load all of his boolits to 700 fps!  | |||
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I didn't ask about round nose. I comiited that if you truly think that meplat doesn't matter then you should just shoot round nose. The fact is meplat does matter and I have posted PROOF and it is ignored. 2 animals laying side by side on the ground and even Ray Charles can see the difference in wound channel size by simply looking. The larger meplat bullet leave a larger wound channel. THESE ARE HARD CAST Bullets that I am talking about. No need for voodoo or soft alloy BS to see the difference. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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bfr; I have heard that WV deer are very easy to shoot with expanding bullets. To have deer that will actually work with you, and stand precisely where you need them to stand for perfect expansion at a set velocity is something that we dont encounter up here. Our deer are ornery...hoodlums....outlaws, and will place themselves at the darnest distances just to avoid a properly expanding bullet! Thats why I have to use wide meplat hardcast...there is no telling at what distance I will have to take my shot, but, I know that regardless of the distance (or velocity), the wide meplat hardcast will perform uniformily...one hole in...one hole out. | |||
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I can say with certainty that no commercial ammunition manufacturers have the resources to conduct such testing. But you can draw reasonable conclusions by simply observing the damage produced by the bullets being used. It doesn't take a PhD to see this, and to suggest (as some do) that a hardcast bullet with a large meplat doesn't do damage out of proportion to what one would think, is simply a matter of poor observation in the field. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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What in God's name are you talking about? You may be hearing me grind my teeth, but it's because of the inconsistency of your posts -- one moment energy is relevant, the next "you don't believe in it." Well? Which one is it? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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And a whole lotta damage between holes..... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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| One of Us |
The above picture show a wound of a the damage of a wide meplat hard cast bullet with a muzzle velocity of about 1150 FPS meaning the 50 yard impact velocity was around 1070 plus or minus To infer that a wide Meplat hard cast bullet lacks wound channel size because the muzzle velocity is less than 1350 FPS is idiotic _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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you sure don't need a phd, just some consistency in shot placement, game size, load and then the same load different velocity, same caliber out of a different gun sighted in for said load, then do it all over again a couple hundred times exactly at a minimum. i know this is not practical, but that's why ammo companies make several types of bullets. i believe alot of people take a position and see what supports it, that's why science has it's methods, to do our best to alleviate those biases. | |||
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