I shot the Mod 58 quite a bit, I reloaded for it as well.

Baised on its own ballistics it is a fine cartridge. [I hope RJM dos not see me write this ]

However, for Police, use I think Remington and S&W dropped the ball on this one. IF they had marketed a load with a 170 to 185gr jacketed HP at 150 to 950 fps they would have a winner.

They should have even called it the 41 Police on the box. Later the word "Magnum" became a bad one for Police duty guns, seems we were killing the bad guys to much with them...

With the cheaper Mod 58 Military and Police fixed sighted gun for departmental purchase, and the finer target sighted Mod 57 for the serious police shooters, they might have had a winner...

Even today, the Mod 58 has a Cult following and demands a Premium in $$ if you want to buy one.

Back in the day I always wanted a M&P fixed sighted 44 Mag, for rough duty...

NE, in a moment of impulse a few years ago, I swapped a mint nickel 58 to a friend for a 4" Model 29 nickel. I love "yellow" Smiths, and my buddy Moose had a hankering for my 58. I honestly felt like he would sell the revolver back to me a year or so later; we were friends and both 41 mag freaks, and he was an MD, so he had plenty of cash. He bought what he liked, and well, it was just a deal among friends...

Well, Moose died December will be two years ago. His sons scooped up his 470+ firearms and sold them all at gun shows; turned everything into cash... The Model 58 disappeared before I even knew Moose was gone.

I lost a good friend and a very fine revolver; I miss them both.

Doubless

Sorry to hear about your friend.

I too like the "yellow" S&W's.

My long time work partner and I both carried Yellow 4" 29's on duty for several yearswhile we worked together.

Many years later he was killed in a tragic accident, he fell to his death.

I still have my Yellow 29 and I will never part with it.

...seems we are all missing friends... My 40 year hunting partner died of a heart attack in February...we had just made all of our hunting plans for the year. Sucks...

Yes, NE and I go back too far...he would be a .41Man but his favorite load is the Speer Shotshell and since Speer wisely doesn't make shotshells for real Magnums NE is stuck with .44s...well really they are just .43s but I hate to hurt his feelings any more than necessary....

But in honor of NE I did go out and revisit my long lost affair with .44s over the last three years. Of the probably dozen handguns and rifles that came in all but two are gone...a 629 Mountain Gun and a Ruger 77/44 Carbine... But all I shoot out of them is shotshells cuz NE says they are the best....

Bob...the .41 Guy

ps...NE memory is fading...when we were on the PD together I started off with a 6.5" 29-2 and later went to a 4" "S" prefix gun that was stolen in a burglary. I HATED THAT GUN...and whoever did it did me the greatest favor as it took me from "The Dark Side" to the .41... .44

I spent the day yesterday shooting a Freedom .454. I used a gentle roll crimp and loaded all chambers. Loads were max. I kept taking out the last round and not a single boolit moved.
I hate the saying that you NEED a hard crimp.
When will that crap go away?
Sorry that some can't see the grease grooves in my loads through the brass, my camera is not that good. They CAN be seen if you hold them in your hand.
Get over it, the crimp can ruin a good load and the brass if it is more then needed.
Gun comics make it worse when an "EXPERT" says the case needs a hard crimp.
If you need nails driven through the brass to hold boolits, you have no concept of how to load.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I spent the day yesterday shooting a Freedom .454. I used a gentle roll crimp and loaded all chambers. Loads were max. I kept taking out the last round and not a single boolit moved.
I hate the saying that you NEED a hard crimp.
When will that crap go away?
Sorry that some can't see the grease grooves in my loads through the brass, my camera is not that good. They CAN be seen if you hold them in your hand.
Get over it, the crimp can ruin a good load and the brass if it is more then needed.
Gun comics make it worse when an "EXPERT" says the case needs a hard crimp.
If you need nails driven through the brass to hold boolits, you have no concept of how to load.

Hey, you're not allowed to post on this thread any more, bfrshooter!

quote:

Posted 31 August 2010 19:14 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I spent the day yesterday shooting a Freedom .454. I used a gentle roll crimp and loaded all chambers. Loads were max. I kept taking out the last round and not a single boolit moved.
I hate the saying that you NEED a hard crimp.
When will that crap go away?
Sorry that some can't see the grease grooves in my loads through the brass, my camera is not that good. They CAN be seen if you hold them in your hand.
Get over it, the crimp can ruin a good load and the brass if it is more then needed.
Gun comics make it worse when an "EXPERT" says the case needs a hard crimp.
If you need nails driven through the brass to hold boolits, you have no concept of how to load.



Hey, you're not allowed to post on this thread any more, bfrshooter! Big Grin

Yes I am, I have not said Freedom.
I want to talk about the wonderful .41 too. It scared the POLICE, too much recoil for many of them. They love the nine, bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang and then "THUMP" when the BG hits them on the head!
Had a guy here from White House security with his Glock. He couldn't hit anything at 10 yards. Puffed out chest and all. Pete asked to shoot his gun and poked the center out of the target. Mr. big never said a word after that.
I asked him if he wanted to shoot my revolver and he got a little white.
I hope he is protecting Obama!

I know I am in the presence of those that don't have a 60-caliber revolver only because no one makes one, but here goes:

There is nothing you can do with a 44 Mag that I can't do with a 41, and I wlll do it with less recoil, less noise, a flatter trajectory, and a better ballistic coefficient. And yes, that includes a 300-grain bullet. The only drawback is that most .41 revolver twists are too slow for a heavy bullet, and it is somewhat like pushing a pencil.

Okay, I have the flame suit on, fire away. But I will say this in advance: the NEI 290-grain flat nose pushed with 18 grains of H110 is plenty of medicine for just about anything out there, and it is quite pleasant out of my 6" Model 57.

And that projectile gets even better looking when launched out of my FA 654. (Sorry, couldn't help it... )

I too believe that the .41 really isn't giving anything up to the .429 magnum.

Have to agree with bf on that one...most LEOs are not shooters...like 95%. 80% of them that I worked with in NH ran qualification scores in the mid-70s to mid-80s... The big problem is that most departmental instructors are little more than Range Officers. The Academy isn't much better.

Doubless...no flames here on the .41 as it is my favorite revolver round, but if you run the numbers and compare SD to SD and BC to BC the .44 really comes out a little ahead. If you check the reloading manuals you'll find in comparing the nominal 210 grain .41 to the nominal 240 grain .44 both the BC and SD are greater in the .44. Where the .41 wins however is that it takes less weight to make the same SD or BC vs. a .44 or .45...meaning less kick.

One can also push a .44 or .45 of equal SD/BC to that of a .41 at a higher velocity with less pressure than a .41...

But when it comes to shootability with hot loads the perceived recoil of .41 is much less making it easier to shoot.

Bob

Nothing wrong with a .41. The only reason I never bought one was the lack of good bullets, boolits long ago.

I would guess that alot of the crimp pulling problems are due to useing older tired brass more they anything. As to the 41 im not a big fan. Sure it will kill things just fine but ill take the other side of the argument. What advantage does it have over the 44 and 45 colt. It may kick a bit less but not enough to make any differnce. Niether to me has much recoil and even to some recoil sensitive if you can handle a 41 you can handle a 44 in the same gun. 44s have a much better bullet and mold selection there eaier to find brass for. They are capable of shooting much heavier bullets if you want and are lighter in the same gun. Id use the old arguement that you can walk into walmart and find factory ammo for them too but who the hell uses factory ammo anyway.

No, Lloyd, new brass is the very worst.
The 1-5/16" group I shot at 200 was with brass shot over 40 times.
Ask me if I ever toss brass!

Bullet crimp is something that takes a little experimenting, getting the correct bullet pull does make for nice little groups.
I use a 41 maggie a great deal, both for long range shooting and on game but the 44 has a slight edge at least for me. Not that any critter could live on the difference, its just my personal preference...by a little bit! Put a good 250 gr LBT or Keith slug in both & you're pretty well "gunned".

Dick

I have been spending the last few days shooting a Freedom .454. I made a tool to drill out the primer pockets for a LP mag primer. Groups tightened. I then went to a Lee 300 gr boolit with cat scratch crimp grooves, shot 4 and looked at number 5, the boolit did not move.
I then went to 40,000 PSI and primers looked normal so I took the load to 55,000 PSI and that still did not flatten a primer. Things are looking up.
I am using the seat die to crimp and only rolling into the tiny groove, it works just fine. If I can hold in a Lee boolit, I can hold anything.
Federal 155's are taking all the pressure I can develop. I went to 31.5 gr of 296 with a 300 gr boolit. Groups are too large at that velocity so I am going to work around 25 gr.
The LP mag primer allows working all loads from starting to over max.