That was the last test with 3 shots each, ran out of loads and extra shots were a waste.
When the last barrel was installed, the cylinder was also changed and I don't know why, the original was perfect.
This is why I want to shoot any Freedom I would buy. I do NOT want to deal with the man with any returned gun.
My friend has had the gun on consignment a long time to get rid of it and even after chopping the price a bunch, he can't sell it.
Is it one gun? Why with 3 different barrels and a new cylinder?
If I had a good one, I would never sell it. When I see a bunch for sale, I have to wonder if there is a reason.
By the way, I have been shooting and working with revolvers since 1954, shot IHMSA for years and my best, lowly Ruger, International production score was 79 out of 80. And that SBH with over 60,000 rounds through it still did this at 200 yards while doing a drop test with a new boolit I made.

Please post a photo of that revolver. I want to see what one run over by an 18 wheeler looks like... And while you are at it, tell me where it is posted for sale.

Oooops, did not see your last post BFR.
I will have to say that if I had your experience here I would be pissed as well.
This IS inexcusable!
Has this been rectified since? Again I will agree and say Baker can be an ass for sure. It would be extremely agravating to spend this much money and get sad performance like that.
Thanks for posting your results BFR. Explains a lot.
How about your BFRs, how well do they perform?
Cheers!

This is what I expect from BFR's.
These are 50 yard groups from the 45-70 and .475.
Notice the sight in target, last five shots are 5/16".
Of the seven BFR's we are shooting, not a single one fails to do this.
Take note, these are cast boolits and that is all I shoot.

That's pretty damn good shooting BFR!
Thank you for your reply. Much appreciated!

quote:

Posted 14 July 2010 17:23 Hide Post
Please post a photo of that revolver. I want to see what one run over by an 18 wheeler looks like... And while you are at it, tell me where it is posted for sale.

Photo is gone with the last hard drive crash. I have not talked to my friend for a while but I believe the gun is in the gun shop in Leesburg VA. I will E mail him.
I won't get in the middle of a sale, I would not forgive myself helping to dump this thing.

I would expect Baker to want to do all he could to make the thing right, even to go as far as replacing the revolver. For the money, it would be the right thing to do as far as I'm concerned. I would demand he do so. It is no money out of his pocket, and will surely cost him customers from the bad publicity.

I am thinking exactly the same thing, DWright... Something is rotten, you know?

Ya, makes me wonder if baker ever even shot the revolver in question to determine it's worthiness. Since he is so protective of his stuff, I would assume he would not want such a lemon in the field.
And I do much appreciate BFRs latest replies. Very informative. And looks like the man can shoot!

Yeah, it is disappointing to be sure.
The .357 is notoriously accurate and easy to work with but we both gave up.
Back in 1954 I had a S&W 27 with an 8-3/8" ribbed barrel and put the first Bushnell pistol scope on it. From prone I was shooting targets no larger then 2", (Those little frozen juice cans full of water.) using the old 358356 HP and 2400 powder.
I started shooting 400 yards and farther in 1956 with my Ruger Flat top. Paid $96 for it from Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago. Got it in the mail. I have owned many, many Rugers and at least 7 model 29's. I used the 429421 and 2400 back then until 296 came out.
IHMSA in the early 80's is what made me figure out the revolver and how to make them shoot like a rifle. I am not happy with anything over 1" at 50 and have shot many, many 100 yard groups an inch or under with out of box revolvers. Even my old SBH will still do 1-1/4" at 100. I am the weak link and vision is getting worse.
This is what I got testing the Ranch Dog 265 gr boolit. Target at 50 and can at 100. I was nicking the rail so I aimed higher for the last shot. I used a red dot.
This boolit shoots great from Whitworth's S&W too.

Sweeeet!
BFR, I have a tremendous amount of hangun experience under my belt; but I have to tip my hat to you sir. Looks like I can learn a thing or two from you. Hell, I wasn't even around till '55.
Nice shootin!

Have handled said .357 -- hey, at least it looks good!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Have handled said .357 -- hey, at least it looks good!

LOL!
Nice!
well, maybe it will sell quickly then. Just wouldn't want to be the seller.
Well, gotta go tend the melting pot to try a cast wadcutter.

BFR: sent a PM

Fun is ready to start soon. I made a few molds for this BFR .500 JRH and I just cut but need to finish another mold for the .500 Linebaugh and .50 Alaskan. Making the sprue plate is no fun and the blocks need holes drilled and tapped yet.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Fun is ready to start soon. I made a few molds for this BFR .500 JRH and I just cut but need to finish another mold for the .500 Linebaugh and .50 Alaskan. Making the sprue plate is no fun and the blocks need holes drilled and tapped yet.

Oh joy, more sessions on the bench.....

Moulds?
I must know more!
Are any for sale?

quote:

Posted 14 July 2010 18:44 Hide Post
Moulds?
I must know more!
Are any for sale?

I PM'd you.
Takes me too much hand work and days and days to make one. I have cheap Smithy.

i have had 3 FA 454's and have had no probs getting good accuracy with them even with downloaded rounds, that said, my son's bfr 454 has a 1/16" twist which should stabilize 300gr bullets better but this has not been verified. it is a nice piece and i had a .475 bfr that i sold more for caliber consolidation than anything, it was an outstanding gun. they do not have the fit and finish of the FA but they are waaaay above the ruger SA i have shot imho. if money is in any way an issue i'd just get the bfr 454 and never look back, it'll do ya right. if not an option, you can't go wrong with the FA and my issues with customer service there have been top notch.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 14 July 2010 18:44 Hide Post
Moulds?
I must know more!
Are any for sale?

I PM'd you.
Takes me too much hand work and days and days to make one. I have cheap Smithy.

I agree, projects like that are labor of love, and would take time. Cheap Smithy or not, looks like you do a damn nice job! wish I had the tools to produce something that nice. They look similar to my LBTs.

While I appreciate the peacemaking attempts, personally I believe that bfr's comments are simply a vendetta against a person or a company, and has little to do with keeping us poor innocent ignorant folks away from making a big mistake. Witness:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/355103176/p/1

back in 2008! Same s--t different day. My FA is probably the "best" handgun I own in terms of a combination of beauty and accuracy. I own several Ruger revolvers which are simply amazing for the price point that they are sold at. I honestly can't see myself buying a custom handgun at the prices that they go for. Somewhere I posted a 50 yard target from my FA. I will see if I can find it.
End of story!
Peter.

Hang on, Peter. You can get a great custom built for the same cost as a new premium grade FA83 -- obviously a donor revolver is also required. So why close yourself off from the possibility?? Try it, you'll like it......

That IS a good point Marko, but I did buy my my FA used (around $1200 or so). I am not sure I would want to pay the price for a new one! There seem to have always been good buys on used big bores with little use! Several years ago I was interested in a (used) Gary Reeder, so, a used custom gun might be a possibility!
Peter.

Look around... I bought my Field Grade FA in 454 brand new in the box for slightly less than $1200, including the $175 micarta grip upgrade!

Yes Peter, we have had trouble with a few for years.
Not all, mind you, some are super accurate. It is those few and that is enough for me. My friends .475 has done several 3/4" groups at 50 and it loves a 350 gr bullet. But he will not part with that one even though he is kind of afraid of the recoil.
Then another friend has a .454 that shoots decent, not great but Whitworth and I have worked with the .454 and we have a tip that can cut group size in half.
Dump the .454 brass and cut down .460 brass so you can use a LP mag primer like the Fed 155. This will allow you to work loads with any slow powder from starting loads of H110 or 296 with no squib loads.
Sure I have shot a lot of Freedoms that were perfect and shoot like they should and always wanted one but those that I know are good are just not for sale and I don't trust one I can't see for myself what it will do.
So there you have it, they are not all good and the friction of the owner of Freedom is wrong. Too bad his father is still not there, I don't think he took any shortcuts. Barrels are cheap, throw out the bad ones or get them somewhere else. With the cost, every barrel should be air gauged and stress relieved.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
I find myself agreeing with you Whitworth, to agree to disagree peacefully. OK, all said, I do believe FA to be the finest factory revolver made, but now will add a little to BFRs argument against FA.
Now, I am looking for a well made revolver in a small package, and I think FA meets my needs here.
OK, now that said, I will give BFR his due. With one of the FAs I had, I was hunting varmints in the eastern part of the state, bout 300 miles from home. While popping away at a grey diggers the revolver suddenly locked up tight. Would not cycle! Inspection proved a small pine needle had somehow lodged itself between the recoil plate and the cylinder. The worst part was that I had forgotten to bring my screwdriver kit. That left me dead in the water. I have to admit that I was madder than hell, and for a long while angry that a revolver made for use against an angry Bear or such, was put out of commission so easily. I knew that anyone of my Rugers would have not even slowed down with a hunk of brush lodged in the cylinder. I now bring tools to take all my guns apart if need be, but it took a long while to get over that.
And to further agreee, I myself had a conversation with Baker of FA, and also found him to be quite self obsorbed. But I want a revolver, not a friendship with Baker. Also, if he did not feel so strongly about his 'babies', then his guns would also be the typical gun that needed a lot more then an action job, so, that may not be a bad thing for us shooters.
I've also found that folks that do have a fair amount of experience with firearms tend to form some pretty strong opinions about them one way or the other. Myself included. I know by reading several of the posts that 'Whitworth' has a LOT of handgun experience, and respect his comments regards revolvers, as well as Mr. BFR, as coming from such.
BFR, can you give us some actual details of just what you have gone thru with the FAs?
I would also like to know if in fact the quality of the BFR revolvers has come up in the last few years. A friend of mine is considering buying one of their .475s. as I mentioned earlier, the one I handled years ago, was pretty dismal. Thanks.

DWright,

I had the same scenario happen when I didn't have one primer seated deep enough. My 97 locked up tight and I didn't have a screwdriver. For me, I like the little differences in the FA rather than a Ruger for instance. The reason I bought the Freedom Arms was that I have a Ruger Blackhawk 44 spl that I replaced the base pin and a stronger spring in the base pin latch and the base pin still jumps on me when shooting heavy loads. The fit and function and thought behind the 97 makes it worth the cost.

I am sure a few sour apples have been made by Freedom Arms but I believe it to be less than the average company. I am one who believes you pay for what you get. I appreciate bfrshooters insight and opinion but am careful to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


ddj

dont know about the first sentence of your post but i agree with most of the rest of it. My FA guns shoot. Im the last one that would defend a gun just because i bought it and especially if i paid big bucks for it and it wouldnt shoot. Like i said earlier if i would have copped the attitude bfr has about fA guns i wouldnt have a single ruger in the safe and probably not a smith either as ive had good and bad from both of those manufactures. The only bfr i ever had was a 480 and i thought the fit and finish left alot to be desired. the grip frame didnt fit right and the edges on the frame were sharp and rough enough that it would cut your hand. I wasnt impressed with the fact it didnt have a cross pin in the base pin, just a screw and also the grip frame is only attached by the screws and doesnt have the dovetail setup that even ruger uses. the sights were a joke. Who would ever put a stainless front sight blade on a hunting gun! The grips well if you like steal belted radials you will love the grips they use but then fa uses about the same on there field grades. I also didnt like the fact that it was heavier even then a fa and there heavy! What did i like. well it was freewheeled from the factory something every single action should be. It locked up well. It had a 5 lb trigger with some creap compared to a ruger that has about a 10 lb trigger with a mile of creap. I bought this gun to build a 475 on. I didnt have a linebaugh and didnt really have the money at the time to have john build one. Well after talking to him he agreed to do it. Mostly because we share a best friend. When we started figureing all the things i needed to change i was looking at almost the same money as having one built. John made up my mind for me. he said as a favor hed build me a ruger for a pretty cheap price one i wont even put in print so i sold the gun the next day. I took a 300 dollar hit on a gun that had exactly 2 rounds though it to see if it went bang. I sold it at a local gunshop a buddy owns and that gun sat on his shelf for over a year. he said everyone that picked it up commented that it was just to big and heavy. It finally sold and i contacted the new owner and he did say it ended up being very accurate. Peronaly i think a bfr is a decent gun but is more comparable to a super black hawk in quality then it is a fa gun. Sure they may shoot but so does about any super blackhawk or super redhawk for 300 bucks less. I really dont see where everyone sees the great value in them. To me its about like one of the jap v twin motorcyles. Cheaper then the harley the guy really wants so he justifys it by saying its just as good and takes it in the but when he goes to resell it. As to bob baker. I totally disagree with you on him too. He is the salt of the earth and will bend over backwards for about anybody. Only thing i can figure is you came at him with guns blazing and come at me that way and we will go to war too. Treat me decent and ill do about anything for anyone. I can remember back in the days of your 357 problem. You took great pleasure in bashing him about every day on every fourm i go on. What do you expect when you call a guy out in front of the world before he had a chance to try every route to make you happy. You cant expect him to drop everything right now and just deal with you. hes running a business and cant stop the world to take care of one guy. What i know for sure is hes a stand up man that would have done anything to help someone with a problem with one of his guns that was civil to him. Problem is your like me, a bullheaded sob and to be honest i didnt spare any words when i was dealing with Magnum research either. I ordered a 6.5 inch gun from them and the picture had differnt sights and it came as a 7.5 inch gun. I called them and asked what the deal was and they told me they measure guns from the end of the frame not the start of the forcing cone like every other manufacture in the fricking world and that sights were subject to change at any time in other words whatever they had in the junk parts box when you put your gun together. I asked if they would make it right and they told me that for 200 bucks they would. I blew a cork and probably shouldnt have but they treated me like I was a dumb ass that didnt know which end of the barrel the bullet came out of. So i will no longer give them a penny and either should you give fa any of yours if your not happy but ive posted this maybe 3 or 4 times not every fricking time i get a chance to bash them. Sorry my friend and i do consider you a friend but it gets old.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
DWright,

I think you are on the right track. I picked up a FA97 in a 44spl here a few months back and it is without a doubt the finest revolver I have ever shot or handled. It locks up extremely tight and the fit and finish is superior to any revolver I've owned. I have shot mainly 250 gr. Keith style and accuracy is great. These are just my experiences and opinions but I believe I have found the epitome of a hunting packing revolver in my mind.


ddj

Ya, I'm thinking the same thing. I have yet to see a better built revolver, and the smaller size of the 97 seems like it would be the absolute berries. I'm with you here.

Boy guys, from what I have read so far from ol' bfr, I would have to step out a little here and say I do not believe the man has much real world experience with revolvers. I have handled but about 4 of the BFR revolvers, and I honestly
have to say that they have been the worst put together guns I have ever seen, period. They were like a Ruger that did not go through the funishing process at all. Extremely rough, and a loose piece of crap all around. Now I have heard that the quality has picked up a bit in the last few years, but it would have to be a LOT for me to even think about buying one.
And as far as a product made 'for putting money in a companies hands', THAT is what ALL companies should strive to do if they are to remain in business for any length of time.
BFR, to be honest, if you want to maintain any dignity at all, I would recommend you remain quite from here on out regarding this subject, as you are sounding more and more like an idiot.
Cheers!

Okay guys, chill out. I know bfrshooter personally, and I can say with certainty that he has a boatload more experience with revolvers than any two or three guys on this site, myself included. He's a bit long in tooth and cantankerous, but he is legit. Yes, he had a couple of bad experiences with FA so he has trouble wrapping his head around a $2,000 + revolver that requires a trigger job -- I too have some issues with that. That said, I have shot quite a few that have shot well, and a couple that haven't -- what I would expect from any manufactuer. The fit and finish has no equals -- we have already established this. BFR doesn't claim to build pretty guns, but what they do sell is a revolver built like a tank, that is reliable and most importantly, accurate. That they use Badger barrels doesn't hurt. I personally think the grip frame of the FA is tops as well, bfrshooter, with his bow-knotted knuckles doesn't like Bisley-style grips. If you want a good hunting revolver, no need to look further than Magnum Research -- this is the handgun hunting forum, is it not??

I might add that this coming weekend we will be playing with an FA83 in .454 Casull -- bfrshooter can't wait!

Again, I think they are fine revolvers and have had this argument with him in person. We are all entitled to our opinions.

Personally, I can rationalize buying an FA used, but if I plan on spending in an exess of $2K, I will go custom and even though it will be based on a Ruger (how is this a bad thing?), the fit and finish will be top rate and well, I know it'll shoot as well, and that my friends is more important to me anyhow.

So, boys, why don't we all agree to disagree.

Bowen's point was that no matter what he does, an FA is going to be stronger, better fit then anything he can do with a ruger. Just better metal, tighter tolerances.

If you are going to load a .44 special or .45 colt to .44 magnum and .454 levels, this might be very important to you.

Also, he might have been hinting that the market value of an FA is higher then that of a custom, used, but at least in my area, that hasn't worked out.

The internet has certainly, at least here, pretty much increased the used FA value to around 1300-1500 for a used gun. Customs are non-existent, and BFR's used, are selling for around 1000 dollars. Your area and prices maybe different.

Would I buy a new FA? One could argue that for a couple hundred bucks less you could get a custom BFR that was as strong, if not stronger,
and beautifully done.

I've found that the answer to the question asked changes according to the times, and economy, and your willingness to be patient, and shop.

Ya, all considered I have absolutely decided to get the FA 97. I truly understand right where everyone stands here, and can appreciate it all. Though I do not have much, the money factor; well, is not the deciding factor for myself. It is more a matter of what I want.
As for money, it's just 'dirty paper', and I'll get more!
Also he one thing I do have going for me is that I work at a gun shop, and can get smokin deals on new guns. I can probably get the FA for just a little more then what most would have to pay for the BFR.
And if it don't shoot, or if I can't make it shoot, I can easily sell it, and do it again.
Now if I got rid of all the Rugers, S&Ws, and Colt's that I was not happy with. . . . . O wait. . . . . I did, and it was quite a few.
Interesting comments all. I figured it'd be good.
And I understand that ol' BFR can get on something as this and take to things a might bit crouchity for sure. . but as Whitworth pointed out; we should probably just agree on some subjects to disagree, and let it go at that.. . and besides that, hell. . . . .
I kinda like him.

One of the reason I love accuratereloading is the fact that I can read the posts or reviews of different guns and make up my own mind. In this case we have several positive comments about the Freedom Arms revolvers and one negative. I think there is a risk in every purchase but I am extremely pleased with my 97 44 spl and would recommend one to anyone. Personally I think they are worth the cost even though I bought mine used.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
One of the reason I love accuratereloading is the fact that I can read the posts or reviews of different guns and make up my own mind. In this case we have several positive comments about the Freedom Arms revolvers and one negative. I think there is a risk in every purchase but I am extremely pleased with my 97 44 spl and would recommend one to anyone. Personally I think they are worth the cost even though I bought mine used.

ddj

Heh, do you happen to have a pic of your 97? Would love to get a close up view of it. Have not yet seen one, except for the pic on FAs site. Not the best pic.

Here you go. They aren't the best.



Here it is next to a NM Flattop in 44 spl.



ddj

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Bowen's point was that no matter what he does, an FA is going to be stronger, better fit then anything he can do with a ruger. Just better metal, tighter tolerances.

I have to disagree with you. While there are design and strength advantages to the Freedom, the Ruger can be brought up to same strength level -- i.e.: cylinder stop support. As far as tollerances are concerned, it is up to the discernment of the gunsmith.

The larger diameter cylinder you would use in a custom 5-shot Ruger, it is inherently stronger than the Freedom. Are we splitting hairs? Yes, as you would have to be a complete moron to hurt either. But, I don't buy into the "it's only a Ruger at the end of the day" arguement.

That is a sweet looking gun ddj.
Thanks much for posting them.

I also agree with you Whitworth about a custom ruger being more then just a Ruger when it's all said and done.

I do have a Ruger .44 flat top already, and it may be possible that I will keep it as is, or send it to Hamilton, AND get a FA 97 as well.

I will say however that I did check out the BFRs on their site, and am still not impressed at all with their appearance. Big and clubby. Bordering on damn ugly! Nope, not for me at all.

Yup, damn fine lookin' gun there ddj. Damn fine.

Thanks DWright,

I really like it as well. I didn't know about the over travel screw or the fluted cylinder. I really like the fluted cylinder due to the fact that it give a bit more grip in loading and unloading. This was the first over travel screw I have had on a revolver and I like it.

I have thought in the past about having Hamilton Bowen turn an OM 3 screw into a 44 spl for me. That feeling is gone after the FA 97. My friend has a Hamilton tuned 45 Colt on a Ruger Blackhawk and it is nice but in my opinion, the FA is in a different league.

The best compliment I can give the FA is that it makes me a better revolver shot.


ddj

For what it's worth, there is a Bowen .44 mag for sale for 1000 bucks and no one has bid on it. It's a ruger base gun.
I'm constantly looking for FA's, and, the last one I bought was 1100.00, and, that was a 757. A gun I bid on, and didn't get, FA old 83 454 went for 1125. That's a great deal, if you don't have to pay 9% sales tax, and a 100 bucks for Kali paper work.

Seems the 97's are fewer on sale, and, higher priced when they are.

"I have to disagree with you. While there are design and strength advantages to the Freedom, the Ruger can be brought up to same strength level -- i.e.: cylinder stop support. As far as tollerances are concerned, it is up to the discernment of the gunsmith.

The larger diameter cylinder you would use in a custom 5-shot Ruger, it is inherently stronger than the Freedom. Are we splitting hairs? Yes, as you would have to be a complete moron to hurt either. But, I don't buy into the "it's only a Ruger at the end of the day" arguement."

Kind of curious how the steel used in a ruger becomes as strong as 17-4, no matter what you do? Also, I guess you could argue that the super tight tolerances of an FA make it less
a defense tool then a hunting tool, since things that lock up an FA don't lock up a ruger.

By the way, I do have a Ruger maximum, and, I have NO intention of finding out if you are right or wrong...it's strong enough for what I want to shoot through it, and some of the stuff I don't.

strenght wize its not worth the argument between a bfr,FA,or a custom ruger. All are built like a tank and can take pressures that only a fool would load to. I like my FA guns but if i had to choose between a custom 5 shot from bowen, linebaugh, clements ect and a FA and it was going to be my one and only big bore i would probably go the custom route. theres just more options for making it the way i want it. I would think it would be easier to recoup more of your money reselling a FA then a custom but the customs from bowen and linebaugh seem to hold up pretty well on the used market as long as there not to specialized when you have one made. Dont get me wrong in this argument. Im not totaly bashing bfrs. they fill a niche. They alow someone who doesnt have 2 or 3 grand to spend to get into a big bore gun that is going to shoot well and hold up well. There not custom guns or even semi custom guns though. If you go into it with your eyes open and realize your buying a gun that is more in line with a factory ruger then it is with a custom you can walk away with a 475 or 454 for less then a grand that will serve you well. Guys are constantly trying to compare them agains 2000 dollar guns and they just dont hold up to the argument. Take them for what they are and there a decent gun.

Well I don't want to argue any more because I proved a point!
Go back and read this entire thread, maybe twice or three times if you get dense.
More of you cut down BFR's and Rugers with maybe a touch against S&W but I never jumped down anyone's throats and maybe I should bookmark all the nasty things said against them so I can bring it up over and over. Some almost scream at a fella that is thinking of a gun, telling him NOT to buy that one. Many of you turn into nasty, blathering, froth at the mouth hypocrites when Freedom is mentioned.
Now who here has an agenda to bombast all the other gun makers?
Just why do you want to do harm to Ruger and Magnum Research and even S&W?
See my point? Some of you are doing EXACTLY the same thing I do with Freedom, what kind of a vendetta do the rest of you have?
If someone wants to buy a Freedom, I say good, you might get a good one, maybe not.
But pages are devoted here to say EVERY RUGER AND BFR IS A PIECE OF CRAP!
Sit and look in the mirror and see who are the hypocrites!
I rest my case!

Yeah BFR, you really should go bookmark all the nasty things said against the BFRs and Rugers. I darned sure didn't see them... (But I can clearly see your prejudice against what the majority of the posters on this thread see as the finest production revolver on the market!)

And while I am at it, yes, Lloyd, the BFR does fill a niche... So do the Kel-Tecs, Hi-Points, Lorcins, etc. Would you own one? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to debate the strength between a Bowen or a FA. I believe they are both equally strong. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am glad that some of us like blued guns, micarta grips, 5 or 6 shots, ect. Isn't wonderful we all have our preferences and our opinions? But, they are just opinions.


ddj