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Hot Core is a piece of work. He acknowledges that every firearm is different and he attacks piezzo electric sensors on the basis that they are different, but PRE/CHE is just fine although they are dependent upon measuring and comparing a reload in a brass case from a lot undoubtedly different from that of a factory load (I'll assume it is from the same manufacturer.) Hagel, Waters, Sitton, Ackley, are persons who he says use this system. I believe Hagel has published articles using modern pressure measurement and Ken Waters has also indicated that web measurement is no longer his means of determining pressure. Ackley died before the advent of modern systems for measuring pressure, and I don't know about Gary Sitton. (I could not even find out if he was still living.) Arguing about this with HC reminds me of the old warning about mud wrestlin' with pigs: Only thing gonna happen is you're both gonna get dirty, and the pig is gonna' enjoy it! | |||
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This happens quite easily in the 7x57 mm and the 9,3x62 mm that the CIP P-max is exceeded and one thinks that the pressure is not excessive. I will try to post some pictures later today if I get a chance that have been pressure tested. Warrior | |||
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If the brass is the weak link in a strong rifle, and we could either know the threshold of the brass deformation or the exact pressure in psi of any load, which would a hand loader want to know about his brass, powder charge, and rifle? 1) Beginners should want the psi information and compare it to some SAAMI registered pressure. 2) Advanced should want the threshold of case failure information. HC has picked the more advanced answer. It is not the right answer for loading commercial ammo. It is not the right answer for beginning hand loaders. But it is the right answer for the level that advanced hand loaders can attain with their own brass in their own rifles. So if you are stuck in the beginning level using some technique other than Hot Core's, don't give Hot Core disrespect. | |||
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Hey Kudude, Perhaps if you got a 1st Grader to read the post to you with emphasis on the highlighted part you would understand you have misread some of the posts. No, I was highlighting larry's contention that Obviously kudude's and larry's vast knowledge base believes a Copper Crusher works without "causing the Case to fail". For those Beginners (and kudude and larry) the Copper Crusher ALWAYS causes the Case to have a Hole in the side of it - that is the way they work. I've never seen it. Dosen't mean kudude is incorrect. Just know they all used good old CHE & PRE for at least 30 years, before I quit taking the Gun Rags. If anyone can provide a Link or a cut/paste of Hagel/Waters/Sitton articles where they deride CHE & PRE, I'd sure be interested. Reminds me of the fools who can't read, take things out of "obvious" context, and misquote people. Huuum, kudude does come to mind. | |||
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I saw a large group of liberal reporters addressed by a panel of liberal reporters that were on Bush's campaign plane. All the audience wanted to know was why the embedded reporters didn't nail Bush for everything he says is a lie. The more advanced liberals on the panel tried to explain the difference between a provable lie and a difference of opinion. Then I realized that I thought everything Kerry said was a lie. It is not that easy to be objective. But I think if you have someone without a dog in the fight to count barbs in Hot Core's interactions on AR, I think you will see he is a pillar of restraint, and most often swallows the turd of unrequited abuse and focuses on the subject, not the personal attacks against him.
Those who measure psi in their rifles and think it is more important than the limits of brass ignore logic. | |||
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Here is a picture of two 9,3x62 cases (difficult to get more cases into the same pic at close distance) that we pressure tested. The pressure was 7% over P-max. Primers show flattening, but many who would judge soley by primers and brass flow would find this acceptable, when in fact it was a very hot load.  Warrior | |||
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The 'right answer' is a subjective statement. If the 'right answer' by way of CHE/PRE is a way of saying it is OK to be way over P-max, then I rather shy away from it. Driving a car's revolutions in the red zone is not for me, and the same applies to my rifle that I have no need for to subject to undue pressure. Warrior | |||
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 Warrior,Looking at the photo of the two cases it almost appears that they, accept for the eccentric firing pin craters, were not fired in the same rifle at the same pressure. If you say they were I certainly believe you. There are subtile differences in markings on the brass and primers. It may be possible that this is attributable to the lighting. However you are right. It appeared to me that although close to a max. pressure the one at the right was just fine. When you say 7% over, what values are you speaking of? 7% of 65,00 PSI ?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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He stated 7% over P-max. P-max for the 9.3X62 is 3900 BAR/56,565 PSI. ------------------------------------------------ "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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It isn't either/or. CHE/PRE can't provide the threshold of deformation alone.
No again. If he's getting case deformation at what he knows to be standard pressure, then he knows that the brass is too soft to be safe at standard pressure and should be destroyed. CHE/PRE alone can't tell him that, because it doesn't quantify pressure.
More like the beginner's tarot card/ouija board method. Suggesting that its "advanced" is simply ignorant.
...and never was.
Of course not. The industry, including the publishers of handloading manuals, abandoned it when advances in technology revealed how inaccurate it was in providing information about pressure.
Nope.
Some never make it past "beginner" status in many pursuits, no matter now long they're engaged. They're unable to advance due to the fear that knowledge might undermine their deep faith in their own personal brand of voodoo. Others have advanced and know that faith in CHE/PRE alone is badly misplaced. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Hey Funz, Since you have not provided any Links to Mrs. Brooks or General Boddington, I did a quick search myself. Still can't find where I've ever "discussed" anything with Mrs. Brooks. Did find a link to General Boddington where I welcomed him and mentioned there are a lot of experienced people on AR with strong opinions. Is that the post you mentioned as somehow causing him a problem? ----- Hey 400NE, Somebody wham you upside the head with some of that British chequer that the American Gun Smiths never get right.
 ----- Hey Warrior, 1. How much CHE did you get? 2. How did the PRE compare to a Factory Load? ----- Hey tnekkcc, I skipped right over this: I do believe there is something we can disagree about.  I really do need to go back to ignoring all the fools and idiots just the way I ignore alf - but,... I feel sure I'd miss making fun of them. By the way, I actually spotted a portion of one of larry's posts I can agree with in a different thread:
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I am going to enter this 'test'.  I read way too much pressure for that class of cartridge. I also read a good firing pin strike and a good firing pin fit. I see the difference between the amount of flattening shown and a little more edge roundedness as being quite a large difference in pressure. I have seen 'flatter' primers but there was also a corresponding insipient head separation ring.You may now all 'mark' me.  Regards 303Guy | |||
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I can't ask you to face your fears, only you can do that. | |||
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bartsche, The test Lab fired these cases in their test barrel. The primers are flat, but obviously they will be flatter when subjected to higher pressures such as 62k psi or 65k psi. The point I am making is that it is a very hot load for the 9,3x62 mm. Point being, we cannot trust primer inspection to ensure one stays inside the CIP max pressure. For this very same reason CHE is in the same position. We have alreay made out that those mavericks that exceed CIP's max pressure are outlaws. Warrior | |||
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  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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After a little brain action and some time, I like what you say here with one small change.The word "advanced" be changed to knowledgable and inteligent. Some dyed in the wool older loaders who might think themselves advanced, have no greater clue than a novitiate with limited knowledge and experience. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Looks like a lack of response. Must not have used either one. Of course had they done so, the problem would not have occurred. | |||
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Since funz has not produced a single link, I'll simply call it like it is in each case -  Just as I thought in the beginning. | |||
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This Hot Core guy.....he sure is a "high pressure Poster"  I'd have thought you'd have gotten tired of it long ago. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'm honored that my name is mentioned, but some of the quotes seem to have been taken out of context. I keep reading these threads in hopes of seeing reports of results from shooters who have actually attempted to measure pressure (in psi or other recognized units). It doesn't really matter if you used conformal transducers, gas transducers with drilled case, case-mouth transducers, force-gauge-on-piston, or even the maligned strain gage. It would be even more interesting to hear from those who have used and compared two or more methods of measuring pressure on each shot or to hear of actual results of CHE/PRE versus measured pressure on the same shots. If you haven't tried to make two pressure measurements agree on the same shot, you're missing most of the fun. "The guy with one Timex is quite confident of the time. The fellow with two Rolexes is not sure." Ken Oehler As it was explained to me many years ago, "I feel sorry for those who think ballistics is an exact science. They just don't understand the problems." | |||
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Ken, When I put 18 gr Blue Dot .223 35 gr Vmax jammed into the lands, half the shots show no pressure sign at the extractor groove and 4050 fps, and half the shots have the primer falling out leaving a huge primer pocket and .005" expansion at the extractor groove, and show 4150 fps. My monitoring of the effects of pressure is good enough for handloading. If one of your products associated pressure measurements to my shots, there would be no value added for me. It doesn't really matter if the two groups of shots are 75,000 psi and 85,000 psi or if they are 89,000 and 91,000 psi. Does it? But I am glad to see capitalism at work, with you filling the perceived needs of others. | |||
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I will be glad to point out that Dr. Oehler is selling high-quality, well-regarded, and useful equipment. when I go to the range, and I see an Oehler product, people are impressed. but not nearly as impressed as you seem to be with yourself. in fact, nowhere near. not even close. though the people are very impressed with the Oehler products. "it takes money to buy whiskey." Dr. Oehler has earned his whiskey. literally. and you? you and a few others have aspired to nothing more than a mutual admiration society of self-declared "advanced reloaders" who have "faced their fears." might I suggest you are sooooo far beyond us, you should face that final fear, cut your umbilical cord, and leave us behind for good. and soon. please. thank you. | |||
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Well, we bought an Oehler Ballistic lab, complete, for pressure testing. We are going to try it first on a 223 rifle, as we have ammo from several manufacturers. So it would be interesting to try these and see how the pressure readings relate to other signs we usually consider in checking the pressure of our loads. We are planning to do this in early May, when my friends Roy and Alan Vincent come over to visit. These two spend most of the year guiding hunters in Africa. And when they come over they like to more or less LIVE in our shooting room, shooting everything they can lay their hands on! I normally have a few thousands rounds of assorted military ammo gathered here for them, so they can occupy themselves in between driving Walter up the wall. Which is nice to have, to pay him back for all the hassle he causes us for the rest of the year! Any guidance from Dr. Oehler on how to run these tests would be much appreciated. | |||
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The basis for such tests has been done and presented here before. Instead of debating the method and science of the experiments, the proponents of CHE/PRE have attacked the author personally. http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/dbramwell%20july%2019%2004.pdf You learn something new everyday whether you want to or not. | |||
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Saeed I also have a M43 Personal Ballistics Lab. I am currently runing tests on .308/7.62 and 30-06. I have a strain guage attached to one .223 barrel; a TC Contender Carbine wich has a pretty tight factory chamber and the .223 commercial throat. I will be conducting tests of commercial, military and handloaded ammuntion with it shortly. Only two of my .223 rifles have enough of the short .223 chamber part of the barrel sticking out in front of the reciever; the TC and a M70. So far A couple pointers for use of the M43; Read the instructions and go through the familiarization part with the computor hooked up. Pay close attention to the required information for the test templates. I made a spread sheet (after mucking it up the first use) that records all required information on the firearm used. Do this prior to going to the range (best to take measurements when the rifle is apart to apply the strain guage). Connect the M43 to your laptop to make sure it will "initialize" with your computor. The range is not the place to discover this won't happen and how to make it happen. Also plug in the strain guage cables you have affixed to rifles to see if the connextion/guage is good to go. A screen will tell you. Make test templates of the ammo you are going to test BEFORE you go to the range. Enter as much data on the ammo and rifle as you can (that will be most of it except for a couple screen measurements and the weather data. Have a means for accurate weather measurements at the range. Have a GOOD 100' measuring tape. Plan on a couple test runs (rehersals) to the range testing some ammo before serious testing of good ammo. You will forget something. Make a check list of things needed at the range from these test runs and use it. This will save you time and frustration when serious testing begins. I have made 4 trips to the range with my M43 so far. The first two I did not follow the above advice and the readings were not correct. I had forgotten things, did not have the extra gear I needed and was to distracted. The distractions come from trying to figure out how to set it up at your range and other shooters coming over, asking questions and ooohing and aaawing. I sat down and spent two more days rehersing with the M43 program on the computor, developing the check list and making the spreadsheet with correct information on it. The last two trips went like clockwork. I had every thing I needed, I knew how to set up, I was able to pay attention to what I was doing and answer questions and I had all the required information to enter in the last required information. Plan enough time to complete the test(s) without hurrying. Be consistiant with your testing technique and shooting technique. I clean the barrel between each 10 shot string. I may or may not shoot 2 foulers depending on whether I want the cold, clean bore info included in the test. Cleaning the rifle also slows me down, cools the barrel, lets me reflect on the data input and it lets me put up a new target (it's a small window through the down range screens at 100 yards) as I only shoot one test per target The data obtained was consistant and in the ranges it should have been. I was also surprised by some pressures I got with one of my handloads and some factory pressures that were not as high as expected. Keep in touch. Larry Gibson | |||
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ALF: The M43 reports pressure, in psi, to an absolute accuracy we regard as comparable to the absolute accuracy of conformal, case-mouth, gas piezoelectric, or other recognized systems. The problem is that we do not know, and cannot measure, the absolutely accurate pressure we would like to use as the standard of comparison. Notice that I deliberately chose to use the word "comparable". I don't know how to make measurements that would justify a stronger word for the precision and accuracy. I can conduct many comparison tests, but when the "standards" don't agree, what is truth? If you will send me your email adddress via PM, I'll forward a report detailing a rather extensive (and expensive) comparison test we did a couple of years ago. I'll even include a copy of the M43 instruction manual so that you can read first-hand the claims we make and the limitations we express. There seems to be a fuzzy pressure range between the published "maximum average pressures" and the pressures at which you are likely to see any damage to the gun. Most proof pressures fall in this range, and I try to keep the pressures of my "using" ammo below this range. Certainly any shooter is free to load his ammo with pressures in this range without my permission or blessing. It is my opinion that most of the observed CHE/PRE effects take place in this range, and I have yet to see comparison data to dispute this opinion. Advocates of CHE/PRE are certainly entitled to their opinions based on their experience, but I'll keep my opinions until shown data to the contrary. Ken Oehler As it was explained to me many years ago, "I feel sorry for those who think ballistics is an exact science. They just don't understand the problems." | |||
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Alf Since Dr. Oehler responded I have deleted my response. He says it much better than I. Larry Gibson | |||
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The differences in stresses my .223 Ruger #1 rifles sees with 1) SAAMI pressure or 2) the primer falling out are of little consequence to the rifle. The difference IS is important for you selling pressure sensing to cowardly hand loaders. If I were you, and greedy, I would encourage shooters to avoid that proof range. Encourage fear and ignorance, make money, what a system! What does it all mean? Hot Loads? There is no change to my rifle. There is change in Ken's bank account. | |||
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tnekkcc I may be "dumber than Denton" and a "coward" by accursation but you sir, are an idiot by choice. You suggest to reloaders to "load them up until they blow primers and "that's" ok.....You think a load of Blue Dot that only blows half the primers is ok....you "think" there is no damage to your Mausers or Rugers.....now you criticise Dr. Oehler with such comments......yes, you are an idiot and not to be taken seriously by any means. Larry Gibson | |||
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Signs of pressure? If an IDIOT shows up wearing this at the range  That's a sign of high pressure #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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when the ad hominem attacks come out, the argument has gone. nice name-calling. did you learn that in science class, engineering classes, or the like? certainly not in the "school of hard knocks," as your teeth would have been knocked in. | |||
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This is one of the most stupid, ignorant, rude, and uncalled for post I have seen for a long time. tnekkcc, What is your problem? | |||
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 ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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The problem in discussing pressure in handloading is the confusion of pressure and the effects of pressure. There is a breakdown in communicating to some people that measuring pressure is not an end in itself, but rather a means of assuring that certain effects of pressure are avoided. That breakdown, over the course of this thread, has caused me to show great patience in tolerating personal insult after personal insult, while I maintained my pleasant demeanor. Ken's name wan invoked in the course of me tolerating all these poor manners. Ken appeared and jumped in on the side of the poor manners people in a partisan way. The only thing rude about my post, is I point out Ken's financial motivation in managing his customers risk perception. Re read the entire thread from my point of view, and you will see what I mean. Do a count on how many times I have been insulted in the thread, including your post, Saeed, and you will find dozens. Count how many times I have insulted someone and you will find none. I don't need to insult anyone, as I am usually right, and thrilled and curious to find out when I am wrong. I have been through the same sort of problem in engineering again and again, where someone is angry, and they must be broken down with the question, "What is it that you really want to accomplish here?" When they finally redefine the goal, they are finally free of going in the wrong directions. Measuring pressure in a strong rifle with a strain gauge for personal handloading is just such a mistake, if the goal is to find the max load before the limit of the brass. The catharsis of an individual coming to grips with redefining their goal may be a threshold some will get through and some will not. That painful threshold is what causes all those personal insults [that you just counted, right?] aimed at me. | |||
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Hey Larry, My compliments on your post. Seems like a good bunch of first-hand experience in it. I'll take a few minutes and compare it to the best Pressure Indication Method of all times - good old CHE & PRE. Cost would be a consideration for most folks, so you can get new 0.0001" capable Micrometers for about $25. And if a person looks around in Pawn Shops they can get the Thin Blade 0.0001" capable Micrometers fairly reasonable - I got mine for $25. Total cost for CHE & PRE = $50 - maybe $75. Totalcost for a HSGS + laptop = $$$BIG$$$ Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? Very interesting point. Which also brings to mind Revolvers(rotating cylinders) and Pistols(Chambers enclosed by the Upper). How would a person easily go about attaching the Strain Gauge and wiring for a HSGS on these common firearms? Of course, not being able to see the Chamber, having it rotate, or too short to extend far enough to attach a Strain Gauge is of no concern for CHE/PRE. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? I agree there is a real advantage to getting the best possible data by following the Instructions, whether it is the excellent, time-proven, never-fail CHE/PRE or a HSGS. But, you really do not need a computer, nor do you need to lug one to the Range with CHE/PRE while it does seem to be a requirement with any HSGS. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? I agree that having some form of Data Entry Sheet is needed at some point with both. However, you don't have to take your rifle apart to ease any portion of using CHE/PRE. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? No need for a Laptop at the Range with CHE/PRE. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? It looks like this is what I call a Load Data Sheet. Good advice to pre-enter as much as you can on it before going to the Range. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? I'd call it a draw. Larry seems to be implying the HSGS Data can be greatly effected by the Weather. Weather also affects the Pressure Indications of CHE/PRE due to the effects on the Powder. If you are using CHE/PRE, there is no need to establish a satellite weather link and down-load the critical weather parameters for the Data to be useful. If it is HOT, wipe the sweat off your brow, if it is cold, put on a coat, if it begins raining stick the Micrometer in with your ammo carrier, make two quick trips to the truck and set back watching the HSGS users in a complete panic, falling over wires and dumping the laptop into the mud. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? This may be useful to see how far you toss the HSGS, but is no use for CHE/PRE. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS?
I've done that too. It is possible to forget stuff. Stick the Micrometers in with the Ammo. Then if you make it to the Range with the Ammo, firearms and Targets, you are ready to get good Data.Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? If you are into ooohing and aaawing, then the HSGS and all the associated and asundry boxes, gizmos, wires and space requirements should make your day. Oohing and aawing advantage? HSGS Excellent advice. With CHE/PRE, it takes about 2hrs to get the prep work done the "First" time. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? This is also excellent advice. I like to take 5-6 firearms when I go so the Barrles can be cooling between shooting. Uh-oh, that would mean unwinding wires, hooking-up, then unhooking, rewinding and repeating for each and every firearm if you are oohing and aawhing them with an HSGS. With CHE/PRE, you just set the firearm you are using aside and pick up the next one. Advantage CHE/PRE or HSGS? You are not "shooting through" anything with CHE/PRE, but hopefully your groups will be small. No Advantage ----- Nice post Larry. | |||
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Hey tnekkcc, Most ANYTIME a person agrees with my thoughts, or even appears to, it seems to be very difficult for some folks who disagree to remain civil. Strange that it is ALWAYS OK for them to go on personal attacks when it comes to me, but when I return it, some folks do seem to get upset. But, just like you, I do "prefer" to remain civil. And, I still prefer this to the Boards with the Thought Police squads. ----- Also look forward to ANY "non-biased" Test Results concerning the non-calibrated, guessed at dimension HSGSs when compared with the excellent, time proven CHE/PRE.  | |||
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