The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussionGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I'm a advocate of reading any material that can educate one 303guy. By all means get all the educational material to read in your hobby. Larry, how do you know I don't have the book or read it? Don't give me a smart answer saying that if I did I would know more what I'm talking about. About your reply to 45 2.1. Larry, rpm effects everything in the world that turns...you know that, I know that, most us know that. Most definitely it affects bullets, but cast bullets CAN be shot with very high rpm with very good accuracy....one just has to do his homework and making that cast bullet and fitting it properly to the bore's critical areas, and choosing the right powders. Every time I come up with a group fired from my various rifles with very good accuracy at very high rpm, you say they are exceptions. Like my 6.5 Grendel for example. No they aren't exceptions. I've done my homework to get them to do that. The Grendel took a little work to find the proper style bullet. The 7mm-08 did not. Want to know a secret? The rifles that I have that don't particularly have a fast twist I don't try to push because to get a very high rpm that would astound you is beyond the capacity of the case or rifle. When I get fast twist rifles I push them and you know which they are. | |||
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True!  I didn't mean to say I will not get the book but rather that it will take me a while. Anyway, I enjoy 'talking' to you folks and making my own mistakes - it's all in the fun.  I also enjoy finding out about the experiences of others.  Regards 303Guy | |||
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Starmetal How'd you know what my answer would be?  "but cast bullets CAN be shot with very high rpm with very good accuracy....one just has to do his homework and making that cast bullet and fitting it properly to the bore's critical areas, and choosing the right powders" I have always said just that. I have also always said the RPM threshold was not a limit, it is a "threshold" and that means it can be crossed. "Every time I come up with a group fired from my various rifles with very good accuracy at very high rpm, you say they are exceptions." No, that is not what I say. I ask you if you can shoot that good of group with consistency. You can't. We all have shot exceptional groups once but the question is can we do it on demand. Your Grendel does not have a fast twist as you mention and your loads do not have that high of RPM. So when you do "get fast twist rifles I push them and you know which they are" then please do "astound" me but kindly do it with consistency. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry I have reached high rpm with the Grendel. Take for example 2000 fps. It gives me 180,000 rpm. I believe that isn't in your threshold, right? That velocity is easy to get and I've exceeded it with accuracy. The twist is 1 in 8 on my Grendel, figure it out. About consistency. Well that's what the game is about, being benchrest, silhouette, whatever. If someone in benchrest could shoot those small winning groups consistently, nobody would compete again him. You know that it's hard to make a perfect cast bullet. It's also hard to shoot the same each and every time. Now if someone, me included, gets 4 shots into a very very small group, and the 5th is a flier, to me that's consistent and shows that something happen with the 5th shot, either the bullet was bad or fit bad, or I didn't shoot it the same as the other four. Now I think that if a person can do THAT consistent, then he's on to something and it's a good load. You know Larry the groups I show you or tell you about....I don't weigh the bullets or mike every one of them. I've only done that one time and that's with the 7mm-08 in Dan's 200,000 rpm contest. The rest of the time I cast the bullets, look for visible defects, and then load them. You agree with any of this, especially what I think about consistent groups? | |||
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Spin- I've read your Bullshit too many times now. You can't seem to keep the same answer from thread to thread or reply to whats written. but go off on some tangent when your caught. I have no use for you or your hairbrained theories. | |||
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Starmetal "That velocity is easy to get and I've exceeded it with accuracy." Once again that is fine. However, if you ever decide to understand the RPM threshold you will understand it is best accuracy. I have told you time and time again it is certainly possible to get "accuracy" above the RPM threshold. I, you and many others do it all the time. The point is even though that may be "accuracy" it is still not where the best accuracy for that bullet/cartridge will be. The best accuracy will come down in or below the RPM threshold. Please read the definition of what the RPM threshold is so you will quit comming up with the same stupid examples over and over again. I think you idea of a "consistent" load is out in left field. A consistent load is one that producess predictable accuray on demand. If you accept 4 good shots and a flyer then I guess that is ok for you. It is not for me nor most every one else. No one is talking about "small winning groups" Bench resters shoot small consistent groups all the time. Shooting a 1 moa group one day with a load and a 4 or 5 moa group the next day with the same load and conditions is not "consistent". If shooting five 5 shot groups with a load in a test if one is a 1 moa and the others are 2-3 moa that does not make that load a 1 moa load because of the one group. If shooting 5 shot groups and 3 or 4 shots go into 1 moa and one makes the group 3 moa that does not make the group a 1 moa group. If you shoot 5 five shot groups and average the groups the average is not the accuracy capability of that load; the largest group is the accuracy capability. Shooting one group means nothing. The rifle/cartridge/load must be able to shoot to its accuracy potential time after time when ever you want it to. That is consistency. Larry Gibson | |||
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45 2.1 I shall treat you here as on other threads when you post such. Come back with something pertinant and intelligent and we'll talk. I don't care if you disagree with me or don't have time for my "hairbrained theories". If you don't have time, don't read them and please don't waste your or our time with such drivel. To do so otherwise has you just pissing into the wind. Larry Gibson | |||
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...and that's not to say that I get four good shots and one out every time. I get those small five shot groups quite often. I know without weighing every bullet, not separating the good brass...aw hell, you know all the benchrest tricks....I'm not going to do that because I'm not in competition. I'm out to have fun and just shoot, but I do want something that doesn't shoot like a shotgun and I do want something with substantial powers. That's why I like high velocity and if the twist is fast, then high rpm too. I told you once that I hardly ever cast load my rifles down, that I started off cast in rifles with rifle powder. My handguns are different. I do have multiple power loads for them. Let me ask you this, say you get those four exceptionally good shots and a flier occasionally... what are you going to look for?or do? | |||
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Joe; I would think that would tell a normal person that he got a bad bullet(threw a check, air bubble in casting, dross, poor fill out on one side of a driving band). Now I assume it tells Larry he went beyond his imaginary RPM threshold.  I had to open up my notes and find my MOST accurate load with a cast 55 gr bullet in 9 twist 223 happens to be at 2049 fps(that's not to say I can't find one faster) lets see that's 163,920 rpms, huh THAT"S ABOUT 25,000 rpms above Larry's imaginary threshold. But you know what it's like trying to explain anything to an X-spurt but I do ask for his x-spurt-ise when uying doughnuts, the question remains Krispy-Kreme or Dunkin'? When you run a test you CAN'T have the answer BEFORE you do it, you savy Larry? Have a nice dayHi Bobby  | |||
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Ahem .... ! If I may interupt for another question -haven't found a book yet. All this debate gives me hope for being able to hunt with my own bullets, so, how advantageous is it to make bullets grossly oversize for the bore and grooves in order to get the bullet to closely fit the throat? And if the throat is the main consideration, what would happen if one found a different way to start the bullet accurately into the bore? (In my hornet I do it with a paper cup in the case mouth. Another thought is a 'healthy' coat of suitable lube on the nose and shank of the bullet to 'float' the bullet into the bore).Regards 303Guy | |||
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You can only make your bullet oversized/fat as the neck area of the chamber will let the case neck expand and release the bullet upon firing. Thing about it. If you load a real oversize bullet and it expand the case neck to be touching the chamber neck area you could run into dangerous high pressure. Most military rifles are generous there. Most new modern firearms aren't. Don't forget most of the ones today were designed to shoot jacketed bullets. There's a trick to try form a case from a longer thicker case. For example forming a 7x57 Mauser from a 30-06 will end up most the time with a slightly thicker neck. What this does for you, especially if you full length resize, is that it more centers the bullet with the bore. To give an exaggerated example factory ammo is made to fit all the different chambers out there, so it's pretty much on the small side. So rifles have exceptionally tight chamber, most don't. Imagine your rifle in the horizontal firing position. The cartridge, being undersized, is just laying on the bottom with most the clearance on top and the remainder on the sides. In an exaggerated example the bullet is actually having to slant up to the throat. Neck sizing and using thicker neck cases helps alot toward centering for better accuracy. Yes you can shoot the most oversize bullet that your chamber will let you to your advantage in most instances. Many of the cast bullet designers are starting to design a bullet to fit the throats now. | |||
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My most accurate cast load is about 1100 FPS in a 16" twist. My second most accurate load is about 1100 FPS in a 18" twist. Both of these rifles are equipped only with aperture sights. | |||
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swheeler let me ask a question; did you start seeking accuracy down in the 15-1600 fps range and work up or did you just go for the gusto? If you didn't work on accuracy all the way up you've no idea where your best accuracy is. It may very well be that the best accuracy you have so far is at 2000 fps. Now if I ask how good that accuracy is I'm sure you point out a sub moa group(?) so how about what kind of consistent accuracy do you get at 2000 fps vs say 1700 fps? Speaking of running tests; I'd ask you to go back and try the test I asked Joe to try. It might surprise you where the real accuracy with your rifle is. Second point I'd like to make is I continually ask you guys to read the definition of the RPM threshold. If you did you'd find it is not a limit as you insinuate ("huh THAT"S ABOUT 25,000 rpms above Larry's imaginary threshold") but that it can be crossed. I regularly cross it with 311291 in my 2 30-06s by pushing that bullet to 2300 fps with some very good accuracy. That's about 160,000 RPM BTW. If you had been following the "donut chronicles" with Hot Core you'd know I prefer Dunkin'. Larry Gibson | |||
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SR...I forgot to give you the velocity of that 150 gr cast out of my M1 Carbine. It's 1424 fps. Being I never shot this bullet I wanted to start safe. The load is very mild, but yet fully cycles the action. Feeds from the magazine too. The primers look very rounded on the edge as compared to ones fired with out of the book loads. If you want I can post a pic of a loaded round. | |||
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Larry, question, have you ever tried the Lee 312 155 out of the Carbine? I may give it a spin (how about that for a rpm thread?),but I will size the bore riding nose down to fit the Carbine's bore and will have to single load them. Now if I do that and it shoots will that impress you as it's a much longer bullet then my swaged ones? | |||
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303Guy See, what I tell ya? Starmetal does know some things! I concur with his last post. Now don't have the big "H" reading that but he and I agreeing does happen  Many times a 'healthy' coat of suitable lube on the nose and shank of the bullet to 'float' the bullet into the bore" is detrimental to accuracy as the bullet is swaged down and rides the lube instead of taking to the rifling. I have lubed cast bullet noses during several tests but found no advantage to it. One major disadvantage, particularly with a hunting bullet, is the amount of dirt and crud a lubed nose picks up, even in a magazine. Larry Gibson | |||
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Well Larry I have to disagree with that lubing the nose ruins accuracy. It's the only way my 6.5 Grendel will shoot those long nosed single lube grooves Saeco 140 bullets. Also that 3/8 inch group I shot with my 7.62x39 AR15 also had their noses lubed. | |||
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I thought about it but did not try it. I did try the RCBS 30-150-FN with about as much H4227 stuffed under it as I could get and still have it cahmber. The bullet holes were egg shaped at 50 yards and the group was 4 or 5" both of which indicate stability problems. Since it also was a single load proposition I quit further testing as a single load M1 carbine is about as useful as tits on a boar. I also wouldn't call it an RPM thread because those of you who have no understanding of the RPM threshold definition would, no doubt, confuse it with that. I would entertain it as a stability/twist thread. Larry Gibson | |||
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I did not make a blanket statement for crying out loud. I said "many times" and was refering to the "healthy' coat" 303Guy was talking about. Do you need glasses? BTW; speaking of lubing bullet noses, have you tried any of the graphite mould preps? I've tried Rapines and Midways on some 314299s I've benn pushing pretty fast in a Finn M39 7.62x54R. There "seems" to be a benifit but I've not thoroughly tested it enough yet to be sure. Both dry real well on the bullets and don't pick up crap like regular lube does. "If you load a real oversize bullet and it expand the case neck to be touching the chamber neck area you could run into dangerous high pressure" That may or may not be the case with cast bullets. I know it is the accepted "norm" but recent tests with the 7.62x54R show no increase in pressure, at least with cast bullets. I'm loading the GB314291s sized at .314 in Norma NS'd cases. There is no clearence between the the case neck and the chamber neck. Actually the case OD with that bullet is .0005-.001 larger than the chamber neck. If not for the slight taper of the chamber neck I probably couldn't cahmber them. Pressures with that bullet sized .314 are no different that if that bullet is sized .310 or .12". Loads are the same with the only difference being the diameter of the bullet and neck clearence with the 2 smaller bullets. More testing needs to be done obviously. Larry Gibson | |||
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Those certainly are below the RPM threshold. Please describe the rifles, loads and "accuracy" (range, # of shots and group size). Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry if your cast load is leaving really good lube star on the muzzle you already have a pretty healthy layer of lube on the bore. That's why I make this statement and also that my Saeco doesn't carry enough lube, nor does the Lee 312 155 for that matter. I've tried just about every lube known to man on bullets. I'm about to experiment with new lube again. | |||
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Starmetal That's pretty much what I've found out except that some designs are a little short on lube when you start pushing them like 314299. That's why I was lubing the noses with the mould prep. So okay, what concoction are you trying now? Larry Gibson | |||
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This is what I mean by a healthy coat of lube. This is 'waxy-lube' and is as hard as candle wax. There is a hollow nose under there.  This is a recovered bullet. It hard to see much in the pic but having rolled several of these in my hand in the bright sun, I cannot see any sign of lube impression on the bullets. But then again, these samples were not fired at high velocity. I could not see any lube star on the muzzle either but then the muzzle is covered by my device. However, there is lube around the exit of the device. At one stage, with full load cast bullets, I was getting flyers and there seemed to be leading toward the end of the muzzle but after cleaning, it seems that this was mistaken identity. No lead came out and it now looks like rust damage. Even after firing jacketed bullets, it still looks the same and there is no copper fouling either. Those jacketed bullets were lubed too. The middle bullet ws fired in my MkI five-groove and the bottom one was fired in the No4 two-groove. The two groove would impress more readily but still no visible sign. I do not have a way of capturing high velocity bullets (in identifiable condition anyway).  The bullet before loading.  How the hollow point behaves on wet-pack. There are remnants of lube in the nose and around the 'mushroom'. Note the defects near the base.  Regards 303Guy | |||
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Yes I worked up to that load just like every load I've ever worked up, since before you had your diapers off. Hell I know you can't do much shooting, your always too busy flapping your jaws(fingers) on here and castboolits. You can't have it both ways, keep talking out of both sides of your mouth, you'll bury yourself. Is your "threshold" 120-140Krpm's or isn't it. Oh that's right it could be, well maybe and if you are getting accuracy above that you must be doing something wrong. You getting into politics next?  | |||
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Having a closer look at the bullet that was fired into wet-pack, I see what seems to be an uneveness in the appearance of the trailing edge of the rifling impression at the nose end of the bullet. It does not look like lube impression but then again it is also possible that the bullet was bent (that can happen during swaging). So for now we still don't know. Regards 303Guy | |||
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Spin- Just like always, you don't , or can't, read. I said I had no use for you, not that I didn't have time. You should know the difference between the two statements.  Long time no see Scott. Hows it going.  | |||
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Looks like Starmetal has "idabul" along with that other guy and I have "45 2.1" along with "swheeler"  Larry Gibson | |||
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swheeler Why don't you tell us how you really feel? By the way I've been shooting cast bullets in .223 long before they started putting it in a 9" twist. You can't get your facts straight with your own BS and you criticise me! If you've something to contribute them provide some facts to back up your BS claims. Besides, it happens to be winter now and the weather has been nasty outside. That affords me the time to "flap my jaws(fingers) here and castboolits". You don't like it, don't read it. Your threat (you'll bury yourself) are just more BS. Larry Gibson | |||
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303Guy Was this with your .303? What was the velocity? Was there any leading in the bore? I notice there are no lube grooves on those bullets so lube has to go somewhere. In lubing the nose of the 314299s I was refering to pushing them up over 2400 fps. Theat bullet does not carry a lot of lube in it's grooves. Larry Gibson | |||
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It's simple Larry your blanket rpm threshold theory doesn't hold water. This "threshold" is affected by bullet composition, bullet hardness, bullet design,bullet fit,powder choice, bore condition, rifling form , lube and on and on. I can take an accurate load within your " imaginary threshold" change one/some of the above things and get an AS accurate load at higher rpm, if you know what you are doing-YOUR PROBLEM. Also your IMAGINARY RPM THRESHOLD leaves out bore diameter, I can push a 22 cal bullet faster easier than I can a 458 bullet all other being equal. The problem with your posts is you don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with your "THEORY". Many people have crapped all over your rpm threshold bologna, you just can't accept facts-UNLESS THOSE FACTS ARE WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR!!!! This is why people just make fun of you and call you names, because talking to a wall does more good. Think about it, have you ever been wrong? Not in you mind, like I said you are a legend in your own mind, another "THEORY" Roger wilco over and out | |||
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Larry if you were following all of 303guy's exploits with the bullet in this thread you would know what he's doing. I'll fill you in real quick. The bullet DOESN'T have any lube grooves. I believe he casts it with the gascheck inside the mould too. I think it's a very soft alloy and he shoots this thing remarkably well for what it is. That's why he is so interested in lubing bullet noses. | |||
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Yup. That's exactly it. The idea of going grooveless was to facilitate the casting/swaging in the same mould/die and of course, I do not have the means to make split moulds with lube grooves. Plus, it makes the bullet heavier for its length. This is what makes this thread of such interest to me - what I can actually achieve with my bullet! And of course, your collective knowledge and experience is great! When I tried lubing jacketed bullets, (I experiment with things for no apparent good reason), I set a ring of 'waxy-lube' around the boat tail of the bullet, loaded up then dipped the nose into molten 'waxy-lube' untill the ring would have softened, let the molten stuff drip down the nose until set then put down to cool. This coating on the ogive did get battered during chambering mut most of it stayed in place. I have no idea what good it might have done but what I was trying to achieve was leaving a layer of lube in the bore for the next shot. All I can say is there was no copper fouling and there did seem to be a residue of lube in the bore. When I tested my cast bullets in the field. I got a few flyers and a few good shoots. I thought there was leading but now realize it probably wasn't. I have also discovered that there would have been some defects in the bullet bases due to casting with the mould/gas check too cool. I have made no attempt to harden the alloy - I have to let the bullet set then push it out in the press then fit the next gas check (in the press) then put the mould back in the pot to heat up. By then the last bullet it too cool. I have found that the lube coating is quite robust on lead and chambering then extracting the round leaves a rifling impression in the lube. It's copper that the 'waxy-lube' does not adhere to. As to velocity? Well, I was shooting 220gr bullets with a 90% bearing surface on top of 32grs of Varget/AR2208. 2000fps maybe? 1900? Regards 303Guy | |||
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swheeler The RPM threshold is supported by facts that came from considerable testing plus the observations of many. Since you know so much about the RPM threshold theory please give us the definition of it. But since it is obvious you don't understand it either then let me further explain. The RPM threshold does have a wide band of RPM where accuracy will begin to deterorate. Yes, you can change one or more of the things you mentioned and get good accuracy a higher RPM. Duh, I have been saying that all along. I have also said that the band of RPM is dependant on caliber. The larger calibers have a higher band. To demonstrate where the RPM threshold is for a .30 caliber cartridge let us take the simple 30-06 with a 311291 for example. Let's assume we have a good fit, the proper alloy, a proper lube, the proper medium burning powder with consistent ignition, the rifle with a 10" twist is accurate, etc. We load it in velocity increments of 50 fps from 1650 fps to 2400 fps. We will find accuracy to be good from 1600 fps through 2000 fps with an exceptional "sweat spot" of very good accuracy between 1800 and 1950 fps. As we increase accuracy above 2000 fps we find the groups begin to enlarge to 4-5+ moa at 2400 fps. If we put a target at 200 yards, assuming testing was at 100 yards, and test the sweet spot load (best accuracy) and the loads over 2000 fps we find; the sweet spot load group opens at a linear rate compared to the 100 yard group. We also will find the other groups over 2000 fps begin to open at a larger non-linear rate at 200 yards. Now it just happens that the .30 caliber band of the RPM threshold is 120,000 to 140,000 RPM. It so happens that with a 10" twist 1650 fps generates about 119,000 RPM. 1950 fps generates about 140,500 RPM. The sweet spot (best accuracy load) was lets say, 1850 fps. That is 133,200 RPM. If we change to a slow burning powder we can boost the "sweet spot" (best accuracy) up to about 1950 fps or right at the top end of the RPM threshold which is 140,000 RPM. Now then, I have repeatidly said that the RPM threshold can be pushed. To do so requires techniques and methods that are not found in most cast bullet reloading books or articles and are not used by but a few cast bullet reloaders. Using the same example; I and Bass have pushed the RPM threshold of the 311291 bullet to get acceptable accuracy (some call it good and some call it very good considering the velocity) in the 2300+ fps range out of our 10" twist 30-06s. That accuracy is in the 2-3 moa range at 100 yards. Still tests at 200 yards show that even that load enlarges at a non-linear rate indicating it is over the RPM threshold even though giving 2-3 moa accuracy at 100 yards. However, "best accuracy" for that bullet in our rifles was still down in the 1800-1950 fps range which is in the RPM threshold. The proof is that the "best accuracy" loads groups open in a linear fashion at 200 yards. What Bass and I did was to tame the adverse affects of the RPM on the bullet by lessoning accelleration and ensuring better fit and alignment of the bullet. But the further tests prove our high RPM loads were still adversely affected by RPM as they was over the RPM threshold. Because of our advanced technique those loads just were not affected as much. When you can provide such facts and information that refute this come back and then tell us about it. The fact that you've shot one or two groups at one range means nothing. I do have to say that the obvious intelligence of this statement you made astounds me; "I can push a 22 cal bullet faster easier than I can a 458 bullet all other being equal." I'm sure most here too can push a .22 cal centerfire faster than any .458 caliber centerfire. Even the .22 Hornet is faster than most any .458 centerfire. Your ability to do the obvious is just plumb amazing. Larry Gibson | |||
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303Guy That is interesting. A .303? What was the accuracy like compared to other cast bullets or jacketed bullets out of that rifle? Larry Gibson | |||
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Yeah, but you admitted Larry that the 30 caliber cast bullet you used wasn't all that good, supported by the fact that you sent the mould to Bass and he cast from it and said that lousy bullets came from that mould. I believe undersized? So how could your threshold test with "that" bullet be solid proof? Let me add too that the test would have to be repeated over and over with the same results AND also with three or more other different rifles to qualify as conclusive. | |||
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Joe; might as well forget it, he's a "legend in his own mind" an x-pert on every subject. I wonder if his arm is sore from patting himself on the back? Hell I got kids that can out shoot this blowhard!  What kind of idiot chooses a mold that casts undersized to conduct a test with, one that doesn't know shit from shinola!  | |||
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Starmetal That bullet (311291) was the one you, Bass, 45 2.1, leftiye and Tiger all expected Bass to shoot more accurately than I was doing at 2500+ fps or some such. The fact is both he and I (I did it in 2 different '06s BTW) pushed it to 2300 fps with 2-3 MOA at 100 yards. It was only the nose of the mould that was 1 or 2 thousands undersixe in Bass's rifle's bore. It was .001 undersize in one of my rifles and .005" undersize in the other. That is not much by normal useage. That bullet was also used in 3 different .308W rifles so that makes 6 different rifles "the test (was) would have to be repeated over and over with the same results AND also with three or more other different rifles to qualify as conclusive." So with numerous tests that Bass did pluss over 500 rounds with that bullet tested in 3 addtitional rifles for a total of 6 rifles make it "conclusive"? It does to me and most everyone else but I imagine you will renig on that statement just as Bass renigged on his. Considering the results both Bass and I got with it in those 6 different rifles I'd say the max effective range of your snivel is zero yards. The point is it was affected by the RPM threshold the same as all others, just not as much because of the techniques Bass and I used. The best accuracy was still down within the RPM threshold. You continually fail to recognise that fact. Let me list the bullets I have tested for you that consistantly fall prey when they are pushed over the RPM threshold; 225415 225438 225462 257420 266455 266469 28-168-FN 311359 311291 311041 30-150-FN 311284 311299 311413 311416 313316 313631 314299 C312-155-2R C312-185-1R GB314291 GC314041 GB312-150 GB326-190 323470 323471 377449 + numerous other moulds that I've sold or traded off. These were all tested in one or more of the following twists barrels; 7.5, 9, 9.5, 10 and 12". All of my rifles of larger caliber have slower twists (excepting the 14" twist .308W) and cast bullets are not pushed over the RPM threshold. That has been a lot of cast bullet shooting over the 38 years that I have had chronographs and recorded the actual velocities. Those cast bullets mentioned have been shot in various cartridges from the 22 Hornet up through the .375 H&H. That has encompassed thousands of loads and tests over the years. I have gone over and over my records. Every single time any cast bullet in any of those cartridges began to lose accuracy it was in the RPM threshold. Even with all the loading techniques applied I could never get the best accuracy out of any of those cast bullets with a velocity/RPM that exceeded the RPM threshold of 140,000 RPM. That's the fact. Now you, swheeler, 45 2.1 and whoever will want to snivel and moan that the reason must be because I can't shoot. Sorry but that os not the case. I do have the credentials to prove it. Besides, unlike swheeler and 45 2.1 I post pictures of targets I shoot and give the actual group sizes over on the Cast Bullet Forum. I'm not afraid or embarassed to shoot with anyone and expect to go shooting with you when I get back that way. I've 38 years of data with 30+ different cast bullets of 8 different calibers that were tested in a multiple of different cartridges and rifles. The data all says one thing; There is an RPM threshold. That may not be "conclusive to you but it is very conclusive to me. Larry Gibson | |||
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swheeler Since the best you can do now is challenge my shooting ability and make dumb remarks it is apparent you've run out of BS. I make no secret of who I am or where I live. If you want to come out with your kids and shoot against me be my guest. However, don't expect me to apologise to your kids for showing you up. I do love a good shooting challenge. You are good aren't you? We've seen nothing to prove it but I'll assume at least you think you are. PM me and we'll arrange the time and the weapons. The ball is in your court now with this challange. I will tell everyone here you chicken sh*tted out. Yoou know you will so why don't you just save yourself some embarrassment and fess up? Or you could just quit with the BS comments and stick to the discussion by bringing some facts to the table instead of BS. That's what is called a "thrown guantlet" BTW. So until you can come up with something relevent and discontinue with your 45 2.1 type comments I shall do with you as I do with him. Larry Gibson | |||
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HOW FUCKING IGNORANT ARE YOU, never mind I know the answer. You/we are talking about RPM's-hence faster, easier- ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL!!!! now tell me I'm wrong, idiot. For love of Jesus first year casters can tell you if you take a 22 cal bullet and a 45 cal bullet, both cast of same alloy, same hardness the 22 cal bullet will take almost twice the pressure as the 45 cal bullet before alloy failure SO YOU CAN PUSH THE BULLET FASTER EASIER ALL ELSE EQUAL< jack ass. You can't read can you, 45 right.  | |||
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Larry you can't take the same bullet and shoot accurate at low rpm then make it shoot just as accurately up through the rpm range. You understand that right? Seems that is what you've tried to do. Fit, lube, and alloy have to be different going up the rpm scale. Throw powder in there also. Grant you one alloy and size goes quite a ways. Is your and Bass's test conclusive? No, because myself and others have pushed many of the bullets you listed to high rpm with accurately in the various twist you listed. Don't forget what I told you about my beginning of rifle cast bullets....that I never started with pistol powders and low velocities. I more or less substituted cast bullet for jackets loads. It took lots of learning and shooting to get there, but I've done and so have others that know the technique. You think that you do, but you don't. You never answered my post as to what you have to say about Lyman emailing me back and saying that tested each and everyone of their loads in their cast bullet book by actually shooting them when you stated that shot many, but calculated just as many others. You know you said that too, don't renig. I talk to Bass on the phone regularly and he didn't have one good thing to say about the bullet he tested for you. He said this to me in a recent email: There will be some that learn and move ahead. And these will make your efforts worth while. Sadly, there will be those that won't and they will be RPMists (and democrats) for life. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Cast Bullets Continued RPM threshold discussion
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