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From the www.huntingreport.com African Lion Hunting In Crisis (posted January 27, 2009) I just received word from John J. Jackson, III, of Conservation Force regarding the impending doom of African lion hunting if the hunting community does not take immediate action. You may remember his report about this issue in the November 2008 issue of Conservation Force Bulletin, which is delivered with your monthly issue of The Hunting Report. In his cover story, Jackson explains how African lions are on the verge of being listed on Appendix I of CITES, which would spell the end of African lion hunting. The only way to prevent this from occurring is the creation of country-by-country action plans to conserve lion. Since Jackson's report, the situation has become even more urgent. Although Jackson has successfully lined up the experts and government authorizations to conduct the necessary field studies in various countries, funding has failed to come through and time is running out. If there are no concrete conservation plans for presentation at the 15th Conference of CITES in January 2010, we will lose the ability to hunt African lion altogether. So, what will it take to get this very important project done? In an urgent note, Jackson writes, "We need $60,000 this week and $200,000 more from now through April. Eric Pasanisi of Tanganyika Wildlife Safaris has just contributed $20,000, and Michel Mantheakis of Miombo Safaris has contributed $10,000. Conservation Force needs another $30,000 more this week! "Our campaign to raise the funds over the past few months has been a dismal failure. Worse, Conservation Force has had a serious shortfall in its own operating funds due to the state of the economy. Nevertheless, this is the very last window of opportunity if the lion is not to be listed. When it is over, it is over." Conservation Force and International Foundation for Conservation of Wildlife serve on the African Lion Working Group and the IUCN Cat Specialist Group. They are partnered to make the hunting community the Ducks Unlimited of the African lion and enhance the profile of hunting in turn. Please make a tax deductible contribution to Conservation Force and help save the African lion and our ability to hunt this magnificent species. Send donations to PO Box 278, Metairie, LA 70004-0278. Credit card payments are accepted. Call 504-837-1233 for more information or visit the Conservation Force web site at http://www.conservationforce.org/. Seloushunter Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | ||
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No surprise. I predicted this was coming 10 years ago and have advised repeatedly that if you don't have your Lion, you'd better go get him sooner rather than later. You may now only have 12 months to try as there is never a guarantee of success on Lion. This is a sad situation. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Anybody read the latest issue of American Hunter? There's an article by Joe Coogan that says lions are doing just fine! From what I can gather, I tend to disagree with Mr. Coogan. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Personally, I think lions are in trouble. I have spent a hell of a lot of time in Africa in my 14 safaris. While it may not be difficult to see a lion, it is very difficult in my experience to take a fully mature trophy male. Why? Who knows. Certainly habitat destruction. The locals have likely killed many to protect their cattle. Sport hunters (me included) have shot many that probably should not have been shot. I am not proud of my first lion. In my last 3 trips to Tanzania for lions, I have been very disappointed. In the worst trip, I saw lion tracks only 4 times. I never saw a lion on that trip. I haven't seen a mature male during those trips. That is a hell of a lot of time, effort and money to not see a mature male. Perhaps I am just unlucky. I think the ability to hunt them is in real jeopardy. However, I see the Kenyans as complete morons on this point. After all, their closure of hunting hasn't helped their populations at all. I believe money is going to have to be spent to save our right to hunt lions. Further, I think we are all going to need to live with restrictions on what we can take if we are going to ever allow them to rebound. | |||
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Larry, Who have you hunted with in Tanzania? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I just went to the Conservation Force web site and made my donation. They need all the help they can get. This is something we can fight and win. The studies they are doing are essential to presenting a strong case at the next CITIES meting. I urge everyone to donate what they can, every little bit helps. Thanks | |||
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Why doesn't SCI contribute to this? They are very happy fleecing the safari operators with demands for "donation". SCI collect millions of dollars every year, I would REALLY love to see where it actually goes to help the hunting community? | |||
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Saeed makes a very valid point. Look at the money they have recently shelled out regarding the importation of sport hunted polar bears into the USA. Surely this should rank right up there as a fight worth getting into. I personally will never hunt a lion, but for those who can and choose to do so, I hope they will be able to do so for many years to come. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Like Saeed, I see this as the perfect cause for SCI to support. They must have just made millions of dollars from the donations/auctions etc they extorted from those that had booths at the show so I'd imagine a measly quarter of a million (probably tax deductable) dollars to such a good cause wouldn't go amiss........  On the other hand, it might be a repetition of the giant sable appeal which they also failed to support.  What was that someone said about SCI doing just sooooo much for hunters worldwide?  | |||
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Very well said SAEED !! SCI are the ones always blowing their horn on conservation, etc. What has their level of contribution to this cause been other than requesting for donations from the hunting fraternity ? | |||
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Saeed, I would think you have more in your coffers than SCI, step up if you haven't. | |||
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The difference between the two is that SCI are an organisation that extorts an immense amount of money and goods from hunting companies and hunters whilst they host a commercial show and puport to help hunters and hunting worldwide. (Although I've never seen a sign of it anywhere in Africa) whereas Saeed is our gracious host and does do an awful lot for hunters worldwide. This forum and his other activities are excellent examples of that. - Incidentally, while he's doing it, he doesn't ask anything of anyone in exchange.... You'll excuse me saying so, my friend, but I reckon that comment was uncalled for in very poor taste. The good news is that Saeed being such a nice guy, probably won't say anything about the comment. | |||
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Should this hapen it will be the death knell for many outfitters, the cat hunts are often the hunts that make an area truly viable and profitable. Very few big game areas will survive doing only buffalo and plainsgame hunts. Zim with its affordable elephant hunts may be different but i foresee that this will be a major problem in Zambia and possibly also Tanzania | |||
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Scott, As far as business viability goes, I don't think it would affect the Tanzanian operators much at all. The usual quota is 4 per area per year and most don't take anywhere that number anyway. I'd be bloody interesting to see what affect it would have on populations and trophy quality though. Personally, I reckon it's an emminently suitable project for SCI to finance........ whether they will or not, remains to be seen. | |||
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I find it interesting that I have a an article in front of me by Joe Coogan in Feb 09 "American Hunter" which claims "despite notions to contrary lions thrive across Africa." So which is it? Jeff | |||
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In my 16 days in Tanzania, this past Oct. and Nov., I saw three mature males and took one of them. In our discussions, My PH, Paul Jelonek of Bundu Safaris, did not mention any decrease in the number of lions in the Kilombero. In addition to the 3 males, I saw four different females and one with cubs. I do not believe that there is any shortage of mature males in his area. At night I would hear a good number of them calling. Dutch | |||
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Steve, you will have to forgive me as I work hard for my local SCI chapter and just get a bit fed up with all the crap thrown SCIs way. I have one question for you and other posters. Hows many members does SCI have? As to outfitters paying for their share of the "comercial show" the outfitters don't have to attend their show, but do because it is in their (outfittrers) interest. As to not seeing any benifit then you must be truly blind. As I am not here to hawk a product or service I am not beholding to anyone and I did survive for 60+ years with out AR. That is not to say I haven't received benifits from this board i e the many friends I have made and get to visit with in Dallas, Reno, The Pa AR gathering etc. Just my 2 cents. | |||
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DOJ, It's Saeed's forgiveness you should seek, not mine. Your comment was aimed at and insulted him, not me. Regarding your 2nd para. The guys go because they feel they have to......... but I don't know a single one that doesn't resent having to make a donation after they've paid for the booth and services etc. As I've said before, I'm actually suprised it's not illegal to then demand a donation after a price for services have been paid. - As to benefit....... all I can say is that despite all the many claims of SCI helping hunters and others worldwide, in the almost 30 years of kicking around Africa in many different countries, I've never personally seen a single sign of them doing anything for anyone here. Sure it could be that they do, do things, and I just haven't seen them..... but perhaps you could give me some examples of their good works here in Africa? 3rd para. I don't hawk my business here either. Even our new site at www.shakariconnection.com if you care to visit it, you'll find it's completely unbiased and doesn't have and sales pressure to my company at all. - Actually, to be entirely accurate, the site comprises something like 350 pages and my company has precisely 1 advert in all that 350 pages. Like you, I've made a lot of friends here, but unlike you, I don't feel the need to insult my host. What he does or doesn't do and what money he has or doesn't have has bugger all to do with the fact that the Lion project would be a good place for SCI to donate some if it's money. After all, it is an organisation that does a lot for hunting and hunters worldwide isn't it? | |||
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Thank you for your excellent reply.  Of all the members on AR, how many have actually hunted Africa? Of all who have hunted Africa are members of AR. Time for a reality check Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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I will repeat my question. Maybe it was overlooked in the bickering about who should pay up. Why would a well respeceted African writer like Joe Coogan assert that there are plenty of Lion??? Jeff | |||
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I saw the same thing Jeff. I wondered about it. My understanding is that Joe works for Benelli now. I wonder if he is up on things. | |||
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Steve we have had our say and I will end it with that. But I would still like to know or a guess as to the number of members of SCI. PS the "donation is just part of the cost of the booth. Call it what you will. | |||
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Because there are?  I thing we should look at both sides of the issue and follow the $$$. Which side has the most to gain?Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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The outfitters that don't like this need to look a little deeper. The cost of the show is the booth fee and the donation. I would bet that the reason it is split has to do with the US tax code and how a non-profit can earn/accept revenue. But regardless it is a private organization, no one is forced to go. They go because it is in there best interest. In any event the industry "allowed" SCI to become the dominate venue for booking safaris... and now they are going to pay. That is what happens in any industry when you allow a single player to become overwhelmingly dominate. That said... I am going to DSC next year. Sounds much more pleasant and I can go hunting nearby with my friends. Back on the topic of lions. I just made a $100 donation to Conservation Force. I hope it helps and I hope others on AR do the same. We need wild Africa. | |||
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We have had these discussion on WHAT actually SCI does for African hunting. We get answers that they do a LOT. But, so far I have not seen any examples. Would someone please enlighten us? African outfitters and PHs go to SCI every year, despite their utter disgust with SCI's policies of providing them with booth space, because they have NO choice! I repeat my question, would someone PLEASE give us an example or two how SCI is helping hunting in Africa? | |||
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They have these little blue bags... | |||
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DOJ, No personal offense intended but I didn't see what one had to do with the other and felt you were being unfair at the very least to our host. I've no idea of the membership numbers of SCI and as you're active in your chapter, I'd have thought they could tell you. - I'd also be interested to know and I'd be even more interested to know what they actually do here in Africa. | |||
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I suspect one thing they do in Africa is lobby the US congress on hunting related laws. If the American hunter stopped coming over the pond that would be a negative impact. Here's something when I googled it (a little dated maybe). Also I seem to recall that they are official NGO's. The only pro hunting one with a seat at the table. SCI Foundation is refocusing its efforts in Africa to build on lessons learned from CAMPFIRE and other community-based wildlife management programs, as well as develop partnerships with wildlife agencies, communities, private sector hunting companies and other conservation organizations. Mr. George Pangeti, SCIF's African Program Coordinator, helps facilitate and initiate our projects in Africa. In the early 1990's, Pangeti was the Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife's deputy director and now is on the Board of Directors of the Zimbabwe National Parks and Wildlife Authority. He plays a major role in helping communities, government and private sector partnerships work together for wildlife conservation. In addition, the Foundation partnered with IUCN to sponsor a workshop to develop the community involvement in the program. The 2005 Western and Central African Lion Workshop held in Duala, Cameroon was a success. Bob Byrne, Conservation Program Manager and George Pangeti both attended this workshop, which was divided into two separate sectors. The first, convened by the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS), focused on the current status and range of lions in the region. The second meeting developed a management strategy for lion in these regions. This conference developed a Region Wide Vision, Mission, Strategy, and Action Plan for lion management. This strategic plan strongly endorsed the use of lion hunting as a conservation mechanism. The Eastern and Southern African lion workshop took place in January 2006 in Johannesburg, South Africa. Both of these workshops set the stage for improved management and conservation of African Lions. The 2005 African Wildlife Consultative Forum (AWCF) meeting was held in Mauritius from November 6-10, 2005. SCI representatives included Ron Maddox, Chairman of the Conservation Committee, Bob Byrne, Conservation Program Manager, George Pangeti, SCIF African Conservation Consultant, and also Linda Venter and Tersia Pelser from SCI's South Africa office. Participants at the meeting included senior wildlife governmental officials, outfitter representatives, and environmental non-governmental organizations from southern Africa. The AWCF meeting received progress reports in respect of the African Lion Workshops and the Regional Elephant Management strategy. Also discussed was the need to extend the range of protected areas to include those already guarded by the state, provincial and local communities and the private sector. The meeting unanimously agreed that hunting enhanced the conservation status of protected areas. Each attending country provided overviews of their management programs based on the questionnaire sent out by SCI. The reports are very useful in terms of enhancing the knowledge base for the better management of hunting in Southern Africa. | |||
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FWIW, Whilst I have every respect for ordinary individual SCI members, I have absolutely no respect for SCI as an organisation. From my point of view, they're a bunch of people dedicated to their own self aggrandisment with inner and outer circles and all kinds of other BS, who's only other interest is to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible, mostly from memberships, donations and entry fees for the show and of course their record book, which incidentally, is unrealistically easy to get into so that more trophies get entered and more fees paid. As I said, in almost 30 years of travelling round various parts of Africa, I've never seen them do a single thing here. They ducked the giant sable issue and I'd be very suprised if they didn't duck the Lion issue as well and if they don't duck it completely, I'd expect them to make a token payment that isn't going to achieve anything. Now I'd better duck the flack that I'm sure will be coming my way!  | |||
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John, Our posts overlapped. - Sorry about that! Attending a conference isn't much more than a jolly.......... As far as I'm concerned, I've never seen them achieve anything on their own merit here. I've never seen them dig a well, establish a clinic, finance a wildlife project, supply a single vehicle or even put up a sign that say SCI etc. I don't see how lobbying the US congress on hunting laws can affect the various countries in Africa. Those countries have their own Governments, Game Depts and hunting laws. | |||
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I don't think we are all that different in our views. I think SCI could do some projects that they have the lead on. But don't underestimate the conference thing. The politics of hunting are ignored at our peril. As for lobbying congress you can look at black faced impalla or cheetah. (not that SCI is or isn't doing anything aobut it) but consider how the hunting of them has changed now that US citizens can't bring back the trophies. I think US laws do have an impact on the ground in Africa. And frankly the hunters are losing this war. The anti's have the initiative and the energy and the youth. They are running circles around hunters and all we do is respond while slowly losing ground. If we truly want to keep hunting around for our kids and there kids then we had better figure out a new game plan and stop letting the anti's set the agenda and own the press. Just look at the latest ploy by PETA. The come up with a racy "superbowl ad" that they know would not be acceptable to the NFL or the TV networks. So predictably it gets rejected. Then they send press releases to all the news outlets and guess what, every news channel in the country gives them free publicity by writing a story on it and probably even linking to it youtube. They get the publicity without having to pay the $3million dollars for it. Very well played. How do we change this game? It is very hard. | |||
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Steve the post above your latest point out some areas they are working in. I just wanted to know how many people were aware of the SCI membership. The latest figure I was aware of was 75,000. For such a small group they do many good works. It is a shame that all the attention is focused on the one item the national convention. The truth of the matter is outfitters KNOW the value of SCI as many donate not only to the national convention but also to local chapter fund raising banquets. This string is getting alot like the Political forum and I guess I better leave it at that. This is all about opinions and you'll know about those, like Assholes every one has one, nuff said, eh. | |||
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John, As you say, we are on the same wavelength in many ways. I agree with you hunting politics are important and it's for that very reason I'd like the see SCI put their hand in their pockets to help this particular initiative, whose aim to stop Lions being moved up the CITES schedule. Another thing I'd like to see them do is apply leverage to USF&WS to get them to allow importation of Mozambican Elephant products..... after all, their Elephant management policy is no worse and probably a lot better than Zimbabwe's..........and that's without even mentioning their lack of ethics on who they accept donations from and/or allow to display at the show. DOJ, I don't doubt they do many good works........ but I've never seen them do any good works here and I've never been able to get a member to actually name any. Sure, they all claim they happen, but no-one seems to be able to name them. If they could, I'd be very happy to try to make a point of visiting one or two. | |||
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Here is one example of what SCI has done/is doing in Africa: http://www.safariclubfoundatio...df/antipoaching2.pdf "There are worse memorials to a life well-lived than a pair of elephant tusks." Robert Ruark | |||
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DOJ, First, I applaude your work in your local chapter, but I generaly have a hard time understanding why SCI supports some of the things they do, while turning their back on others items that might be just as, if not, more important than those supported. For example, SCI has, and still is, fighting tooth and nail for sport hunted polar bear importation into the USA. I hope they do the same of sport hunted lions. Grantetd, I do not have as many 'connections' in the hunting community as others, but I personally know of two people who I have personally met, with one being a great friend, who has actually taken a lion. On the flip side, I know of not a single person, nor have a met one, that has hunted polar bear in my sheltered little part of the world. I don't know the actually stats, but I would hedge a guess that there are more lions hunted every year than polar bears. If not, then I would assume those numbers are very equal. I know it is hard to compare lions to polar bears, but how does SCI make the determination to fight for polar bears and not lions? I hope they step up! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Yep, making such a bloody fuss about donating $6,260? Give me a break! What happens to all the millions they take at every convention? Especially those forced out of outfitters so they can have a booth? | |||
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Graybird, I disagree a bit with on you on SCI fighting "tooth and nail" for the Polar bear issue. In fact they jumped in the middle going off half cocked and buggered up or complicated the work of John Jackson and Conservation Force. They put very little effort into their work. Just IMHO a publicity grab to attempt to be seen as doing something. Yes I have shot lion. Yes I have a Polar Bear I can't bring in. Would someone answer my question about Coogan's assertion that there are plenty of lion? PLease!! Jeff | |||
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Saeed, just how do you know how much SCI takes in on their convention - show? I guess they get the facalities for free and the people they employ work for nothing. The SCI is a non-profit org. and to remain so in the eyes of the IRS they must be a non profit, their funds must be expended for a common good. Steve asks for examples and when some are provided well lets get on with something else to bitch about. It is not possible but I would love to see what the safari industgry would be without the org like SCI DSC. Like I said this is getting like the Political forum. People from outside the USA know what is best for all of us. Just a quesation why dosen't Dubia make a strong push for the UN to reloacte their headquarters there? I know this is not African hunting but just an interesting thought. | |||
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Ummm, you certain or your first statement there? "...Africa. I love it, and there is no reason for me to explore why. She affects some people that way, and those who feel as I do need no explanation." from The Last Safari | |||
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