I was just told from someone I will not name that SCI will contribute substantial funds for the lion issue, if they do not accept money from the Dallas or Houston safari Clubs. Personally, I don't know. I am just passing a long what I heard.

JTHunt, I was also just told that one can sign up for internet through the Reno/Sparks Cenvention Center for $9.95 a day.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I was just told from someone I will not name that SCI will contribute substantial funds for the lion issue, if they do not accept money from the Dallas or Houston safari Clubs. Personally, I don't know. I am just passing a long what I heard.

Having been an exhibitor at an unrelated tradeshow those internet connections are killer. Trade shows in general are a huge racket. With union contracts that require you to have them set up your booth, hire line men to drop an internet connection, want pad under that carpet?, how about an extra chair?

Some of it might be SCI, SCI might be adding a %, but the venue is certainly getting there share.

One thing everyone seems to be missing is that an motivation for SCI to charge they way they do... booth fee then a "donation" may be a tax stragegy. I don't know this but is certinaly could make sense.

While hanging out at the local gun shop I heard that SCI will be offering free lion hunts to all DSC members if they will renounce their membership.

Guys, get a life

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

We were discussing the case of that South Africa PH, who a few years ago got the SCI PH Of The Year ward, he then ran off with many owing many people money.

Anyone remembers his name?

His name was David VanDerMeulen. He fled to the UAE after arrest warrants were issued by Tanzania and RSA. Extradition from the UAE was refused. He still lives there I believe, although the Statue of Limitations may have expired.

Saeed, perhaps you could track him down and let us know how much he had to pay to avoid being extradited?

Let us know how David's Golf game is going.

quote:

Anyone has any information on what SCI did to help those same hunters get any sort of redress from that "Professional Hunter Of The Year"/

SCI is very quick to boast about what they are doing in Africa, but it is the same old story, we don't see much of it.

SCI arranged for all of the Members, and some non members trophies, to be shipped from Tanzania. A Taxidermist in RSA (can't remember his name but he did a great job) acted as SCI point man.

VDM's money trail was followed by RSA investigators and the FBI but a member of the SCI Ethics Committee tracked down his banks on the Isle of Man and in the Caribbean. Unfortunately the money could not be attached and most was subsequently transferred to the UAE. Dubai perhaps?

quote:

$1700 mentioned above for 4 days of Internet connection?

4 years ago SCI paid the Reno Convention Center $350/day/computer for High Speed Access. They had +/- 6 I believe. I don't believe you can get HSI for $9.70/day from any Convention Centre in the US. We paid $565/day in Chicago last Spring. I won't even try and scare you about how much we had to pay for a Union set up/take down and rented furniture. Let's say it is cheaper to buy Broyhill and throw it away after the Convention than to rent it. I'm not saying SCI isn't marking it up but not $415/day like what is being suggested.

The criteria for PH of the Year used to be a Free Hunt to the President, among other things. It changed for awhile after VDM but reverted 5 or so years ago. It is a worthless award and should be viewed as such. Think Academy Award for Best Picture. 90% of SCI Awards are meaningless and are for Political payoffs or recognition for friends. I don't see them as being any different than any other Organizations Awards though.

I think that African Outfitters in particular are sticker shocked at all the costs in the US, not just the Shows. Things cost more here than in Zim or TZ or RSA. You don't hear nearly the amount of complaints about costs from the Aussies or Europeans where costs are similar for similar events. Ask your African Outfitters how much it costs for the JAGD & HUND in Germany. Most don't know because they can't afford a ticket let alone a booth.

Gator1, Oh My God, you mean SCI didn't help David excape to be hidden in UAE and they helped the fleeced clients, please tell me it isn't so. You know they (SCI) have jacked up those internet fees because that is the only thing they do is jack up fees.

The SCI Exhibitors site

Shows A/V rentals fron the convention center. A WiFi point is quoted at $45. It is obscure if that is four the show or per day, maybe per hour to get to $450!

Well at least the UAE is doing what it can to help hunting in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:
Well at least the UAE is doing what it can to help hunting in Africa.

In the same way they are helping Pop Music by letting Michael Jackson live there?

DSC's 2007 grants. I'm sure that SCI has a similar list.

http://www.biggame.org/index.p...=view&id=10&Itemid=4

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:
Well at least the UAE is doing what it can to help hunting in Africa.

In the same way they are helping Pop Music by letting Michael Jackson live there?

If your knowledge of geography is the same as of SCI dealings, then it is not correct.

Bahrain is NOT in the UAE, and that is where Michael Jackson is living

can you get much farther afield from the original title of this topic than these lasts dozen posts- Michael Jackson, David van der Meulen, UAE, SCI internet fees, etc??????????? Jesus, guys, just kill this topic and get back to the original discussion. what can we as individuals do to protect wild lion hunting? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Gator1:

quote:

Originally posted by Pauly3511:
Well at least the UAE is doing what it can to help hunting in Africa.

In the same way they are helping Pop Music by letting Michael Jackson live there?

If your knowledge of geography is the same as of SCI dealings, then it is not correct.

Bahrain is NOT in the UAE, and that is where Michael Jackson is living

Sorry Saeed. I get all those little City States you have over there confused.

quote:

Sorry Saeed. I get all those little City States you have over there confused.

You are not kidding there.

I once shot a bird, and it landed in thne next emirate, and had to talk myself out of trouble with the police there

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Sorry Saeed. I get all those little City States you have over there confused.

You are not kidding there.

I once shot a bird, and it landed in thne next emirate, and had to talk myself out of trouble with the police there

You should have sent Walter over to fetch it instead.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
can you get much farther afield from the original title of this topic than these lasts dozen posts- Michael Jackson, David van der Meulen, UAE, SCI internet fees, etc??????????? Jesus, guys, just kill this topic and get back to the original discussion. what can we as individuals do to protect wild lion hunting? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Ok then.Before the SCI guys start to throw too many rocks...Sci is actually supporting canned lion hunting (by default) in allowing well known practicers of the "art" of canned lion hunting to advertise in their magazine.I'm referring to Sandhurst safaris in South Africa,Clayton Fletcher among others.

I've also read numerous tales in the SCI magazine about the lions roaring next to camp(in camps),that lure a "wild one from Botswana".

So that's what I know about lions and SCI.I know I'm not supposed to step on the toes of members here who've shot canned lions,soft bossed buff,etc,etc,but there you go,I've said it and Bob's your uncle.

Jdollar,

Let them have this thread. You are most welcome to join us at the new lion conservation thread.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
can you get much farther afield from the original title of this topic than these lasts dozen posts- Michael Jackson, David van der Meulen, UAE, SCI internet fees, etc??????????? Jesus, guys, just kill this topic and get back to the original discussion. what can we as individuals do to protect wild lion hunting? ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!

Ok then.Before the SCI guys start to throw too many rocks...Sci is actually supporting canned lion hunting (by default) in allowing well known practicers of the "art" of canned lion hunting to advertise in their magazine.I'm referring to Sandhurst safaris in South Africa,Clayton Fletcher among others.

I've also read numerous tales in the SCI magazine about the lions roaring next to camp(in camps),that lure a "wild one from Botswana".

So that's what I know about lions and SCI.I know I'm not supposed to step on the toes of members here who've shot canned lions,soft bossed buff,etc,etc,but there you go,I've said it and Bob's your uncle.

well said -

Shakari has been screaming the same thing for years on end

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Jdollar,

Let them have this thread. You are most welcome to join us at the new lion conservation thread.

Brett

I thought my musings were relevant to lion conservation???

Steiner,

They are and I agree that is BS. SCI should reject canded lion hunting.

Brett

Brett,

As much as I abhor canned hunting where does SCI draw the line? Major donors and award recipients hunt the Santuary every year. High fenced trophies are given equal credance as fair chase in SCI record books. To reject the notion of canned hunting could set off a domino effect on other species. I think we should do our best to protect wild lion and wild hunting and hopefully the can stuff will run its course to oblivion.

Jeff

Guys,

As much as I have an issue about some of SCI's actions and inactions, I believe they no longer acept record book entries for Lion from South Africa or Namibia. I might be wrong on that, but to the best of my knowledge, it is the case and that at least is a start.

Bwana Bunduki

If you are going to complain about hunting the Sanctuary than you will have to complain about hunting 90% of Texas and 99% of South Africa.

High Fences entrapping animals, Feeding, Bore holes, artificial selection, removal of predators, blinds over water holes and removal of competitors for food. All of these are present to some extent in all of these places.

Shakari

SCI stopped taking entries for Lions from Namibia and RSA about 10 years ago.

It's really great though to see so many Hunters of you take the high ground and pass this judgemental attitude onto the rest of us for our Salvation.

I'm sure with your attitude of 'only my way is the right way' you will fit right in with the new administration.

SCI has not stopped taking entries for lions from Namibia and South Africa. They have a separate category for those lions, but still take entries.

Gator,

As I've repeatedly said, I don't have a problem with individual members or even chapters, just with some of the actions and inactions of the organisation. I also have a problem with the canned hunting situation because I consider it not only unethical but also a major threat to our sport.

I don't need your or anyone else's approval to take or express any attitude I like. If you have a problem with my expressing my beliefs, you need to read your own constitution bwana..........

As for your ridiculous comment about salvation, how does the fact that the organisation behaving the way that it does affect anyone's salvation?

quote:

I don't need your or anyone else's approval to take or express any attitude I like. If you have a problem with my expressing my beliefs, you need to read your own constitution bwana..........

Shakari

My apologies. I wasn't referring to you and failed to make myself clear.

I just am getting sick of the Holier than Thou Crowd, most of whom have never been outside their own County, pontificating on what they believe to be ethical.

We all have our standards and if you have read any of mine you will know that they are higher than the vast majority here.

My personal view on Lion Hunting is that if you shoot a mature Lion that doesn't have grey hair on his face and claw marks on his Ass you should be forced to pay triple trophy fees for the damage you have probably done. If you shoot a Pride Male where Cubs are involved you should be drug back to camp by your balls.

But that is just me.

Steve, it is wonderful how you'll like to use our constiution when it benifits your position. I don't think canned lion hunts will hurt the hunting industry one bit just as the Santuary and other such operation haven't hurt in this country nor has ranch hunting hurt the hunting industry in RSA in fact if it weren't for ranch hunting in RSA there would be no hunting industry in RSA.

DOJ,

I didn't use your constitution to benefit my position. I used it to underline the fact that I can express any opinion I choose and that right is even detailed in your constitution. Therefore any American should know and respect that right by heart.

I don't know shit about the sanctuary, so can't and won't comment, but as far as canned Lon hunting is concerned, I regard it as totally different to SA ranch hunting for a variety of reasons. (Although I have to say I choose not to hunt any DG in SA)

As far as I'm concerned, canned hunting s not only unethical and immoral for the obvious reasons, it's also an immense threat not only to Lion hunting but ALL Arican hunting. Sooner or later the antis are going to get hold of it and beat us over the head with it and if (or rather when)they do, it won't be to only stop canned Lon hunting, it'll be to stop all Lion hunting and if the get the chance, all hunting....... If we don't put a stop to it, they will only they'll try to put a stop to a lot more as well.

Added

I feel so strongly about the canned Lion issue that we decline to accept adverts on www.shakariconnection.com from companies who even have a sniff of that practice........ something incidentally, that many magazines, including SCI mag fail to do.

This is a touchy subject. I think that it would not hurt hunting to reduce quotas and sit back and wait for propper research to be done on genetics, age structures, reproduction, home ranges, etc, etc to be done for the king of beasts, as opposed to continuing and finding out that you are causing potential irreperrable damage to such an iconic species. Lion hunting world-wide is probably a classic case of demand exceeding supply without the other hassles that a predator faces in the modern world.

Canned hunting is a very sad practise, but unfortunately there are always going to be a minority that will jump at the chance for such an experience. Unfortunately this will always play into the hands of anti-hunters. Many lions that have had lots of human contact and/or are hand-reared and reach maturity have a very uncertain future. It is always going to be a problem releasing these animals back into the wild, as they are always going to be a threat to people, no matter how 'safe' or 'tame' they may appear...they are a real human risk once they have been released back into the wild and chances of livestock/human-lion encounters can only escalate in the future! Canned hunting provides an albeit unfortunate answer to these unfortunate animals as well as generating some money. It would be a good thing though for all true ethical hunters to dissapprove and condone such behaviour and not relate it to hunting in any way other than culling/ shooting which it is and try get this point accross to people who do not know any better.

Gator,

I asked a rhetorical question. Nothing hypocritical. Nor did I specify a complaint except canned lion hunting. I asked the question of Brett of exactly where do you draw the line? Try reading the post before saddling your high horse. Again the rhetorical question is out there. WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE?

Why are we complaining about lions that are bred in captivity, and not other animals?

When it comes to ethics, I don't think any of us has the right to dictate to others as far as our personal hunting is concerned.

Of course, when one throws the SCI ethics committee into the equation, all bets are off.

I personally do not agree with canned Lion hunting but to each his or her own.

Saeed and others have a problem with SCI ethics committe and yes they probably have looked the other way when they should not have. I do not agree with SCI committee looking the other way, and I can only hope one day that will change.

Just like I hope one day that the millions of dollars they have gotten from the thousands of donated hunts from africa. A million or two goes back to africa for lion research and other wildlife research that needs it before it is too late.

Bwana Banduki,

I'm not sure where the line is, but I agree with Steve that as long as we and the organizations representing us condone canned lion hunting then it will be used as powerful ammunition against us not only in the African lion debate, but in the greater context of African hunting. I understand the point your making, but I think we should condemn such practices. Doping lions, releasing them in 5 acre pens, and selling clients "free range" lion hunts that end with a dead zoo kitty unbeknown to the client are reprehensible and inexcusable at best.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why are we complaining about lions that are bred in captivity, and not other animals?

When it comes to ethics, I don't think any of us has the right to dictate to others as far as our personal hunting is concerned.

Of course, when one throws the SCI ethics committee into the equation, all bets are off.

Saeed,

As I see it, hardly any other animals are bred in captivity. With few exceptions, the more ordinary game is wild bred, albeit on fenced areas........ The other differences with canned Lions are the fact that as they are captive bred they're somewhere between heavily hbituated and tame when they're shot and the other difference is the frequent appalling drugging situation.

As far as ethics in general are concerned, like you, I personally believe it's up to each individual to decide for himself what is and what isn't correct, but I feel the canned Lion issue is not only unethical but also immoral and as I've said many times before, I consider it the greatest threat to the entire sport of African sport hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Why are we complaining about lions that are bred in captivity, and not other animals?

When it comes to ethics, I don't think any of us has the right to dictate to others as far as our personal hunting is concerned.

Of course, when one throws the SCI ethics committee into the equation, all bets are off.

Saeed,

As I see it, hardly any other animals are bred in captivity. With few exceptions, the more ordinary game is wild bred, albeit on fenced areas........ The other differences with canned Lions are the fact that as they are captive bred they're somewhere between heavily hbituated and tame when they're shot and the other difference is the frequent appalling drugging situation.

As far as ethics in general are concerned, like you, I personally believe it's up to each individual to decide for himself what is and what isn't correct, but I feel the canned Lion issue is not only unethical but also immoral and as I've said many times before, I consider it the greatest threat to the entire sport of African sport hunting.

The saying that "Assumption is the mother of all FUCKUPS" holds very true in Internet discussions like this one. For example posters may assume that everyone understand the concept of high fences and game behind high fences. This is most definitely a totally wrong assumption!

I quite agree with Saeed and Steve that ethics is a very personal thing and one must never dictate to others. I will however state what "my" ethics are - for two reasons; Pepole can reprimand me and say that in their opinionI'm wrong or should consider other facts. Stating my ethics will hopefully be a bit of a guidance to younger hunters or hunters who have not yet been exposed to certain situations - like many USA hunters for whom the first encounter with 'high fence hunting' is in South Africa.

As Shakari said; most of South Africa's game is raised 'in captivity' - but in fenced areas so large that they live 100% or close to 100% natural lives. The true migratory species, and all species when the population in the area reaches the density at which true natural unfenced animals would start migrating away from the place where they were bred, are restricted by the fence from migrating. In a properly managed game farm the latter does not apply. Can such 'behind the fence animals be ethically hunted? I’m quite happy to hunt any animal in a fenced area where this is the restriction on migration is the only difference between a true wild one and a fenced one!

Another type of animal kept 'behind a fence' in South Africa are a few very expensive and scarce species are bred and raised 'in captivity' in small camps. Some of these enclosures are so small to be perhaps better described as cages. Growing up in such a cage they have absolutely no chance developing man-avoidance behavior in a natural way. In fact they tend to develop 'man seeking behavior' - as man brings them food! Lion, sable, roan and disease free buffalo are the best known examples of these.

Of these species it is only lion that is specifically bred to be hunted! The roan, sable and buffalo bred in such intensive breeding programs are currently mostly sold to game farm owners for the purpose of re-introducing a nucleus breeding herds into new areas. Usually one or two bulls/rams and a larger number of cows/ewes. I know of not a single instance where even an attempt was made to re-introduce a captive bred lion into the wild. If it did indeed happen it was most probably just a publicity stunt by the SA Predators Breeders association!

But what fate, other than to be sold as part of a new nucleus breeding herd, awaits the bovid animals in such intensive breeding operations? Some surplus young bulls [those judged to have limited potential to grow trophy size horns] are sold as young just past weaning age animals to hunting farms. They are released here, often in areas where not a single female of their species is present! So breeding with them is not an intention at all. Here they then grow mature, eventually grow old and are then eventually hunted as trophies. I do not have any personal ethical problem to hunt such an animal that has been in a very large free ranging area for maybe a decade or so. I do not even call that “put and take” hunting. The fate of the “old breeding bulls” from such intensive breeding operations of all three the mentioned, and maybe some other, species also, is invariably to sold to Game dealers and Hunting Outfitters. These bulls are usually of good to very good trophy quality – there were selected to be kept as breeding bulls because of their good trophy quality in the first place – and past good fertile breeding age. Being so old they have absolutely no value as breeding material and are invariable to be shot [note that I do not use the word “hunted”] as soon as released – usually the same morning as the “shooting” client arrives!

There is IMHO absolutely no difference between this and canned lion shooting. The only difference is that lions are all bred to be shot, and these old bulls were kept alive for as long as they could breed to be used as studs, and then they are shot soon after release! At least, unlike canned lion, they are usually also not drugged when shot.

But canned lion hunting is one of my pet topics. Shakari should be congratulated for refusing to accept advertising income on his Shakari Connection site from such Hunting Outfitters that even whiff of having been involved with canned lion hunting. I’m very pleased to say Steve accepted my add! I do hope that the HO(s) whose add(s) was(were) refused by Steve will read this and understand why,and change his(their) ways! I also hope that huters who are potential lion hunting clients also take note and not book through Hunting Outfitters with dubious reputations.

Lastly I want to just draw everyone’s attention to the web site of the group “Campaign Against Canned Hunting” Seems like the type of group that Saeed, Shakari, JohnHunt and many of you should join and support? NOT SO! It is a perfect example of what shakari warned against: They will use canned lion hunting against us! http://www.cannedlion.org/
Go there and check for yourself!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

This is one possible way to look at this issue. Lion hunting is a hunting career apex animal for most of us. Some will acheive the goal of a wild Lion and some of us won't. To cut corners in this quest is not acceptable to most of us. The same way we are repulsed by Barry Bonds and steroids, why should we accept the faux accomplishment of a whacking a "zoo kitty" as Brett so eloquently put it. Aren't you personally disgusted with a runner in the Boston Marathon who sneaks into a car for 20 or so miles before exiting to finish the race on foot? By the same token there was a 300 ponit whitetail for sale in Reno for $89,000 but you got an $800 discount if you bought at the show....I would hope peer pressure at least for these apex animals would purge this practice. Unfortunately hunting is a solitary sport. This also a microwave society these days. Unfortunately if there was not a huge demand for this mockery of hunting, it would not exist. Whle ethics are a personal choice with regards to life, hunting etc, policing our own ranks by educating seems to be the only real answer. For that to take effect will take a long time.

Jeff

Use Enough Gun,

quote:

SCI has not stopped taking entries for lions from Namibia and South Africa. They have a separate category for those lions, but still take entries

If you choose to include Namibia then I ask that you be specific.
Several years ago, SCI requested and was provided with a map from one of the Ministry of Environment and Tourism researches Dr. Stander where Lions are found naturally occurring. I beleive that it was Dr. Yajko of SCI at the time that worked together with Dr. Stander.
Therefore SCI does accept Lion entries shot in Namibia as long as they were not shot on private land where they do not or have not occurred for many years naturally.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Lastly I want to just draw everyone’s attention to the web site of the group “Campaign Against Canned Hunting” Seems like the type of group that Saeed, Shakari, JohnHunt and many of you should join and support? NOT SO! It is a perfect example of what shakari warned against: They will use canned lion hunting against us! http://www.cannedlion.org/
Go there and check for yourself!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew, my point to that site is two fold.
1) we need our views out there, otherwise the audience will only hear one side of the propaganda
2) it is sites like that that are successfully reaching the younger generation and turning them off hunting.
Don't support them financially, of course, but if you don't join you can't add to the discussion.
And hunters are losing this perception campaign.

John,

I agree that we're losing the PR war but how to turn that around is another matter. Personally, I don't think facebook etc is going to achieve anything because trying to explain why we hunt to a non hunter is like trying to explain colour to a blind man....... it just can't be done.

All we can do is try to explain and justify why hunting helps the game populations and the eco-system etc. I've made a minor effort to do that here: http://www.shakariconnection.c...m-sport-hunting.html but I'm well aware it's no-where near enough.

What I think we need is some kind of a platform that can reach a wide audience of non hunters and use it to give examples of how hunting and hunters benefit the game populations etc...... not only is that easier said than done, it'd also cost a small fortune.

There's also cans of worms that'd have to be opened and acts that'd need to be cleaned up..... with everything that entails.

So..... anyone got any ideas?

So here's a question for you all: I was sitting at the dinner table at my local SCI chapter fundraiser last year with a nice gentleman and his family who where accomplished hunters. He had hunted Africa many times including a trip with Johnny DuPloy. He received an award at the banquet for his latest hunting "accomplishment" a stunningly well maned lion that he shot with Tam Safaris of South Africa. Before this happened I had watched an episode of Dangerous Game devoted to lion hunting in which Olivia Nalos-Angilos (or whatever her name is?) shot a lion with Tam Safaris. I gleaned two things from this show:

1. Tam Safaris is the only South African hunting outfitter to be recognized by SCI as having free ranging lion. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

2. Her "hunt" was appallingly unlike hunting. They walked for hundreds of yards (in the open and in plain sight of the lion mind you) up to a lone male lion resting under a bush watching them and shot him as he looked at them from some distance.

So:

Is Tam Safaris just a well endorsed Canned Lion operation?

What do you think about this kind of operation?

How does it work that it is so much different than the canned operations if it is different?

Brett