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I'm building a .416 RUM (aka.,416-300 RUM or 416 UltraCAT). Would that be enough for elephant? - 400 grain bullets moving at 2650 fps. AIU | |||
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9.3x74R 286gr with a good wide meplatt solid. Bell wouldn't have used those small calibers if he had to pay for wounded and lost critters.  Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
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I have read the same thing along with a lot of blanket statements about how "elephant hunting has changed". There are still areas where Elephant are hunted in the open(such as Makuti). Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Mad Dog If you put the bullets in the right place you will have no "Problemo". Stand firm and shoot straight. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony, I gotta stand firm and shoot straight, cause I sure as hell can't run, anymore!  Mad Dog | |||
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AIU, Wondering why your interest in pushing velocity, 2650 fps you noted with .416 400 grain bullets, for Elephant gun? | |||
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I resemble that remark  SSR | |||
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That is absolutely true but if you only hunt Makuti you could never in your life time kill 1011 bull elephants no matter how much money you have. 465H&H | |||
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“He shot his 1011 elephants with a 7x57mm rifle”... Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures… • He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of 6 Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo. • He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine using the long 159 grain FMJ bullets. • He shot 200 pachyderms with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet. • He went to a .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and returned to the 7mm. • He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it. Whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.( He used the .303 in the hope of running into a Herd of Bulls so he could make use of the 10shots ! He was famed for using a Martini in .303 & holding the spare rounds between his fingers & could fire the rifle as fast as a bolt action !) • The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle. | |||
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Exactly! Who CARES what Bell did? Columbus sailed the ocean blue in a wooden ship! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I wonder how many frontal charges Bell stopped with his small caliber weapons? The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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curious where you found this breakdown? I have never read where Bell found the 318 unreliable. | |||
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That(1011 elephants under the current quota system) is a bit of a red herring, don't you think? What I believe TSA was referring to was his belief that more gun is required in this day and age because the elephants have been harassed to the point that they have retreated into the thick bush. One who hunts the valley might believe that is true. But the Zambezi Valley is just one of many ecosystems that hold elephants. Makuti is not the only semi-open area where elephants are found. Namibia and Botswana have many elephant hunting areas that are semi-open. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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It was his ammo that was unreliable. The 318 was the rifle he used to shoot cormorants(?) just because he wanted up use his remaining ammo(IIRC). Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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JB, I have hunted elephant in Omay South, Matetsi, Chete and Charisa. I have seen elephant and killed them in open areas all of hose places. 465H&H | |||
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The minimum caliber can mean many things. legal caliber or minmum needed to kill under ideal circumstances. I think a better question is what caliber will get the job done when shit is going wrong. when you have a moveing target and your life depends on stopping an elephant before he stomps you into the ground. when the shot placment may not be as precise due to the reallity of the situation. I feel that fortunately very few really have to ponder this when they have a good ph who has and is equiped to deal with problems but if you were on your own what do you want to bet your life on | |||
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375 for a minumum,,, never shot an elephant,, only buf,, but I shoot my 416 rigby much better than I do my 375 so no question the 416 rigby will be in my hand in Dg territory. I stood toe to toe with eyedoc him shooting his 375 and me my 416 shooting buf,, he did just as good as I did and I couldn't tell any difference,,,, "Because he shoots any gun very good!" bullet placement is as everyone says is the main key,,, and I did order both books from Will! you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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416...allows a margin of error without getting into the real large bore rifles with their weight and recoil. | |||
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Do you want the minimum caliber in your hands if everything goes south? Recoil management is simple and a a very do able project with practice. Accurate shooting, 40+ caliber and understanding and knowing where a brain is in an ele's skull. Mike | |||
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sir, i refer you to the author, James Passmore. thanks
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In the book "Bell of Africa" Bell talks about standing on the banks of a river pass shooting cormorants with his 318 to use up the ammo. Some other foreign hunters ask him what kind of shotgun he was shooting because theirs wouldn't reach that far. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Who knows how many frontal charges Bell stopped but he must have stopped them all as he lived to a relatively old age to die of a heart attack at his home in Scotland. Out of 1100 elephant and hundreds of buffalo he took he must have faced some charges otherwise it makes a mockery of the modern hunter who seems to face charges from elephant and buffalo the minute he steps out of his accommodation and lives in constant fear of having to face charges where he needs the biggest most powerful rifle to put them down. All this when he is usually only hunting one elephant or one buffalo and has a PH at his elbow to back him up or take over when he fluffs his shot. Yes I concede that Bell was exceptional, only from the point of view that he just got on with the job in hand. Others who seem to emulate this characteristic? Our own Saeed springs to mind. | |||
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Bell may have indeed been an intrepid if not exceptional hunter in those heydays. One also needs to remember that the elephant populations were far more numerous, hardly poached and consequently more relaxed; their tranquil disposition therefore offered higher possibilities of a calm and relaxed shot that could be executed with a caliber as small as the 6.5mm. Bell did however own a battery of rifles featuring some of the heavyweights which would be employed when the going got rough. | |||
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BTW, Bell was one of the best shots in Africa, and he knew elephant anatomy better than anyone .To that add cartridges and bullets that had great penetration. | |||
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thank you, lb I'll be curious to go have a read. Jeff | |||
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If he could kill a standing ele with a frontal brain shot from a 7X57...he could stop a charge just as easy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, Don't you think there is a difference in taking aa elephant that is standing still with a frontal versus killing one whose head is bouncing up and down during a charge? 465H&H | |||
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I really believe the notion of pursuing an elephant with anything less than 375 bore is not only unfair to the elephant, but damned near suicidal. Just sayin... Phil Massaro President, Massaro Ballistic Laboratories, LLC NRA Life Member B&C Member www.mblammo.com Hunt Reports- Zambia 2011 http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1481089261 "Two kinds of people in this world, those of us with loaded guns, and those of us who dig. You dig." | |||
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As far as making the shot...there would be a huge difference for me! As for WDM...I don't know. For me...I want the shock effect in case I miss. But...my point was (and I don't pretend to know the answer to this) that if the cartridge was capable of the penetration it would stop a charge just as any other slug passing through the brain would. And...whether the ele was charging or not would have NO EFFECT on penetration. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Your statement above is true but the discussion revolved around whether under current conditions he would face more charges and therefore more chances of missing the brain where the 7x57 is not the rifle I would want to have on that occasion. 465H&H | |||
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given todays firearms the 7x57 isnt what WDM would choose either-he was a student of firearms and not stuck on tradition. | |||
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I think Bell fake it all anyway. From his shot placement drawings, he would have missed them all!  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Well now, there's the ole pot stirrer! | |||
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Nah Will, Bell did that to make others miss, You must remember it was business to him-he didnt give away trade secrets. | |||
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I'm not so sure on that, after all he did state that he couldn't see the point in being knocked around by recoil with big rifles when he could just as easily drop dangerous game perfectly well with his small calibres. He did try some big bore with his gunmaker friend Fraser but was horrified at the recoil so quickly gave those away for his beloved 7mm Rigby's and 6.5mms. Remember this was the man who thought the 220 Swift was a good red deer rifle when he used one back in Scotland. Even Pondoro Taylor acknowledged Bell's status by saying that if Bell thought the 220 Swift was a good deer rifle then it must be. | |||
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Eagle27, I would bet Bell would have loved a 7.62 Nato either FN/FAL or M-14. by progress I didnt necessarily mean bigger. You to some extent prove my point with the 220 swift anecdote SSR | |||
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After reading Bell, in many cases he made extensive use of a type of ladder to see over the elephant grass and make his shots. His drawings make a lot more sense if the shooter is not firing from ground level, but from an elevated position... He never explicitly shows the shooter being at ground level in any of his drawings. At least that is my pet theory. . | |||
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I have always wondered about this. His drawing for the side brain shot would have put the path of the bullet in front of the brain. It would be great to hear an explanation of this mistake. I always wondered if an editor had a hand in screwing things up. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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A 500 grain (min) bullet at 2,150 fps (min), in the largest caliber you can shoot accurately once(a one shot group). | |||
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My thought is that the 6.5, 7mm, 9.3 which are renoun for their killing efficency all use heavy for caliber bullets. (high SD) enabling them to penetrate forever. That is why they work. I have owned and shot numerous calibers... some in Africa an find that my two favorites are 6.5X55 and 9.3X62. If I was to go hunting only a couple elephants I'd do it with my 9.3 bolt gun and be backed up with a larger bore for insurance. If I was to make a living out of hunting Elephants, I'd have a 500 nitro double or some other 40+ bore gun that has long heavy for caliber bullets. Just my 2 cents Aaron | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting What's minimum caliber for elephant - you opinion.
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