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USFWS to declare status of Arican lions on 12/28
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I can't agree that canned lion hunting has anything to do with this ruling. Breeding lions has hardly endangered the species. It is all about Palmer and his lion was mature and not canned. This has a lot more to do with UNSCRUPULOUS PHs than "me first" hunters. The holiness of Zim PHs, so often touted on this forum, is a myth. I have run into more than one Zim PH/operator who will do anything he thinks he can get away with to make money. I very much doubt Palmer told his PH he wanted an illegal hunt. It's far more likely that the landowner/squatter and the PH are the bad actors.

Regarding the shooting of immature lions, I suppose you could draw a line between that and the ruling. However, the reason the populations are endangered has far more to do with loss of habitat and human/lion encounters. Far more lions and leopards are slaughtered in Botswana by farmers and the rangers than by hunters. Lions breed fast and will max out their populations within the prey/habitat constraints with or without hunting.

Heck, in Zim there is quota for lioness in many concessions. Is a hunter who takes a lioness on legal quota a "me first" hunter?

Perhaps some of us hunters have conflicted feelings about hunting. I know hunters who will shoot anything but an elephant.

I think should take a leaf out of the opposition's book and make it politically incorrect to have more than 2 children. If they can limit our hunting to fit with their perceptions of right and wrong, we can limit their breeding using their own logic against them.


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Posts: 2933 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
The holiness of Zim PHs, so often touted on this forum, is a myth. I have run into more than one Zim PH/operator who will do anything he thinks he can get away with to make money.


Believe it or not mate we need to make an income. Otherwise this is bullshit and why would you want to go there?

Merry Christmas to you.


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Posts: 9996 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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In related news, eBay and I assume the like, have already adjusted their position on buying and selling of lion rugs/skulls/mounts due to the new listing. It's already happening
 
Posts: 3588 | Registered: 27 November 2014Reply With Quote
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To me there are two issues here.

The regulation and the enforcement.

In general, I don't have an issue with tougher regulations of hunting. I do have an issue with noted scofflaws going off and hunting...have a felony related to hunting? Well, I don't give a crap that you can legally own a bow, you should not be allowed to hunt period. If a nation has a problem with their hunting rules, then a reasoned approach to trying to get compliance with CITIES and other rules should be made.

My issue with what happened to lion hunting is that USFWS has been using regulatory rules to push an agenda and they keep doing so. Polar bear have excellent data available, and the Inuit people have wanted the money to help with the bear and protecting them, yet USFWS has a political hot issue of "climate change" that they are using as justification to ignore the scientific data on the bears. They will likely continue to do the same with lion and leopard.

Face it, leopard are a success story for hunting, yet they are trying to utilize something that can obstensively be a reasonable regulation to hamper what brought them back from the brink.

Elephant were also brought back via hunting related conservation in the 80's.

Lion, well, the best scientific data is that off take of older males makes no impact on the populations and all the wild lion range states are implementing a set of regulations that follow this, so that you would think that the USFWS would not be stating things about banning lion hunting in these areas.

I also somewhat expect that canned shooting will find a loophole here, after all, it is agricultural product not a wild animal that is being slaughtered for its hide and other products.

Really, the problem is that USFWS has shown itself to be too much in the hands of a small subset of vocal ideologues and the traditional checks and balances have been removed in the US. It has gotten to the point where no one really trusts the government to be fair... On either side (occupy Wall Street and black lives matter are examples on the left; Trump's campaign rhetoric and the NRA on the right as examples) and while it's a shame, it is also why the country was founded on minimalist government.

Unfortunately, it looks like to get reasonable behavior in this area we need to elect republicans for a couple decades, which historically has not happened since FDR.

Really this whole topic is more political than anything else. The scientists all seem to agree that habitat erosion is the main culprit of wildlife decline, yet they are unwilling to state that and hunting is the single best way of funding habitat conservation publically due to the political leanings of the folks that support their organizations.
 
Posts: 11118 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
To me there are two issues here.

The regulation and the enforcement.

In general, I don't have an issue with tougher regulations of hunting. I do have an issue with noted scofflaws going off and hunting...have a felony related to hunting? Well, I don't give a crap that you can legally own a bow, you should not be allowed to hunt period. If a nation has a problem with their hunting rules, then a reasoned approach to trying to get compliance with CITIES and other rules should be made.

My issue with what happened to lion hunting is that USFWS has been using regulatory rules to push an agenda and they keep doing so. Polar bear have excellent data available, and the Inuit people have wanted the money to help with the bear and protecting them, yet USFWS has a political hot issue of "climate change" that they are using as justification to ignore the scientific data on the bears. They will likely continue to do the same with lion and leopard.

Face it, leopard are a success story for hunting, yet they are trying to utilize something that can obstensively be a reasonable regulation to hamper what brought them back from the brink.

Elephant were also brought back via hunting related conservation in the 80's.

Lion, well, the best scientific data is that off take of older males makes no impact on the populations and all the wild lion range states are implementing a set of regulations that follow this, so that you would think that the USFWS would not be stating things about banning lion hunting in these areas.

I also somewhat expect that canned shooting will find a loophole here, after all, it is agricultural product not a wild animal that is being slaughtered for its hide and other products.

Really, the problem is that USFWS has shown itself to be too much in the hands of a small subset of vocal ideologues and the traditional checks and balances have been removed in the US. It has gotten to the point where no one really trusts the government to be fair... On either side (occupy Wall Street and black lives matter are examples on the left; Trump's campaign rhetoric and the NRA on the right as examples) and while it's a shame, it is also why the country was founded on minimalist government.

Unfortunately, it looks like to get reasonable behavior in this area we need to elect republicans for a couple decades, which historically has not happened since FDR.

Really this whole topic is more political than anything else. The scientists all seem to agree that habitat erosion is the main culprit of wildlife decline, yet they are unwilling to state that and hunting is the single best way of funding habitat conservation publically due to the political leanings of the folks that support their organizations.


Could you post that on the USF&WS website/facebook page? Really good piece of prose.


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Posts: 9996 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by tomahawker:
In related news, eBay and I assume the like, have already adjusted their position on buying and selling of lion rugs/skulls/mounts due to the new listing. It's already happening


Explain please.


______________________
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Hunt Reports

2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112
2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
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Posts: 7624 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
To me there are two issues here.

The regulation and the enforcement.

In general, I don't have an issue with tougher regulations of hunting. I do have an issue with noted scofflaws going off and hunting...have a felony related to hunting? Well, I don't give a crap that you can legally own a bow, you should not be allowed to hunt period. If a nation has a problem with their hunting rules, then a reasoned approach to trying to get compliance with CITIES and other rules should be made.

My issue with what happened to lion hunting is that USFWS has been using regulatory rules to push an agenda and they keep doing so. Polar bear have excellent data available, and the Inuit people have wanted the money to help with the bear and protecting them, yet USFWS has a political hot issue of "climate change" that they are using as justification to ignore the scientific data on the bears. They will likely continue to do the same with lion and leopard.

Face it, leopard are a success story for hunting, yet they are trying to utilize something that can obstensively be a reasonable regulation to hamper what brought them back from the brink.

Elephant were also brought back via hunting related conservation in the 80's.

Lion, well, the best scientific data is that off take of older males makes no impact on the populations and all the wild lion range states are implementing a set of regulations that follow this, so that you would think that the USFWS would not be stating things about banning lion hunting in these areas.

I also somewhat expect that canned shooting will find a loophole here, after all, it is agricultural product not a wild animal that is being slaughtered for its hide and other products.

Really, the problem is that USFWS has shown itself to be too much in the hands of a small subset of vocal ideologues and the traditional checks and balances have been removed in the US. It has gotten to the point where no one really trusts the government to be fair... On either side (occupy Wall Street and black lives matter are examples on the left; Trump's campaign rhetoric and the NRA on the right as examples) and while it's a shame, it is also why the country was founded on minimalist government.

Unfortunately, it looks like to get reasonable behavior in this area we need to elect republicans for a couple decades, which historically has not happened since FDR.

Really this whole topic is more political than anything else. The scientists all seem to agree that habitat erosion is the main culprit of wildlife decline, yet they are unwilling to state that and hunting is the single best way of funding habitat conservation publically due to the political leanings of the folks that support their organizations.


Very well stated Dr. Butler.

And you are correct...the only way the USF&WS machine will get stopped now is through the ballot box...and it will take a special Republican at that (John Jackson told me personally that we almost lost leopard under GWB due to Laura liking them). We had our chance to bring the scientists on board 3 years ago...SCI made the decision for us then to NOT...too late now.

It is basically down to the Presidential election.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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I hate to say it but its over. I wanted one last lion hunt but that's not going to happen. Maybe the science will win out but I doubt it, As they say if it doesn't pay it doesn't stay. With that being said wild lions will be gone soon! Sad state of affairs!
 
Posts: 125 | Registered: 07 April 2009Reply With Quote
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I normally don't say much. I can't believe you said what you did. I am stunned by your empty headed logic!
quote:
Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This effectively kills lion hunting for US citizens. Sure if you want to pay $125K and leave your skin behind and take just pictures you can do that.

But how many hunters will take the risk of paying for a $125K lion hunt, killing a lion and then subjecting their trophies to a complex administrative process to import.


Mike


This kind of thinking seems common with people who "trophy hunt". Which IMO is one of the things wrong with our message. Do we hunt to fill up a trophy room? Or do we do it because we enjoying hunting and traveling to far away places and experiencing new things. If not having a stuffed lion in your den is going to stop you from traveling to Africa to experience the hunt of one. Then maybe you aren't really a hunter. Maybe your just a collector. Of course the reasons behind stopping lion imports are ridiculous but that shouldn't stop anyone from hunting one....

I'll be hunting in Tanzania and Mozambique in the next two years. If anyone is hard up for animals to show off in your trophy room let me know. You can have mine.. .


Zim 2006
Zim 2007
Namibia 2013
Brown Bear Togiak Nat'l Refuge Sep 2010
Argentina 2019
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Posts: 273 | Registered: 26 February 2013Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Also hoping a Trump would get elected and force a change to lion or elephant policy is wishful thinking. To change these rules the entire administrative framework has to be changed. Otherwise you will have inconsistent laws - one frame work for everything USFW does and lions and elephants excluded. Very unlikely that ever happens.


Mike,
USF&w is an executive branch agency und the Secretary of Interior which is a Presidential Cabinet position. Whom better to straighten this broken agency out than Don Trump..."your fired!"

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra: "It ain't over...til is over."

Don't be such a defeatist! Maybe you should spend more time in Texas around Texans.

quote:
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.8 – Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House


Aaron and I told all that this fight was coming beginning in 2010.

As Wyatt Earp told Ike Clanton..."get in the fight or get away!"


I am just a realist - lion hunting is pretty much done. Leopard will follow. The big 5 will be down to buffalo.

We can all whine about posting more pictures on facebook and being in public's face. But we got played perfectly by the anti-hunting crowd. All the talk of doing exactly what the law requires got us new laws and rules that make it near impossible to hunt lions. Dr Palmer and Cecil sealed the deal.

All the wishful thinking of Trump magically changing the USFW ignores the reality of Clinton, specifically Chelsea Clinton, working her magic on making Big 5 hunting even more difficult for US citizens.

This will really suck for DG specialist - lion, leopard were the high margin business.

Lane - hopefully in 2016 or 2017 I will own a place in Texas. Then if nothing else I can rent the place out and quote General Sherman - “If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell”

Florida is Hell.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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I will go back to Africa and I will hunt but it wont be a lion hunt and even if I wanted to because of this situation in a few years there may not be enough lions to hunt.
 
Posts: 125 | Registered: 07 April 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Lane - hopefully in 2016 or 2017 I will own a place in Texas. Then if nothing else I can rent the place out and quote General Sherman - “If I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent out Texas and live in Hell”


I must say Mike that I much prefer David Crockett's opinion: "I must say as to what I have seen of Texas, it is the garden spot of the world. The best land & best prospects for health I ever saw is here, and I do believe it is a fortune to any man to come here. There is a world of country to settle.

You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."

But I will say Mike...it takes a special person to be a Texan and we are particular about the company we keep! Smiler


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
All the wishful thinking of Trump magically changing the USFW ignores the reality of Clinton, specifically Chelsea Clinton, working her magic on making Big 5 hunting even more difficult for US citizens.


PS:
One more reason you will have a hard time in Texas as there is another old Texas saying: "Let's get all the hard stuff done today as tomorrow we're doin' the impossible!"

This is why I am a Trump fan! He shakes off all the BS about what can be done and can't. He just focuses on what NEEDS to be done or what NEEDS to be said.

Don Trump patriot

Giving up is for pussies!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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I received this alert from SCI not too long ago. Glad to see them step up:

SCI Membership Alert on the FWS African lion listing

On December 21, 2015, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) announced a final rule to list African lions under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The rule, which was published in the Federal Register on December 23, 2015 lists African lions as two separate subspecies – Panthera leo leo, found in western and central Africa, and Panthera leo melanochaita, found in southern and eastern Africa. Lions in western and central Africa will be listed as endangered, while southern and eastern Africa lions will be listed as threatened. The rule goes into effect on January 22, 2016.

Together with the listing rule, the FWS issued a special “4(d) rule” that will require ESA permits for the importation of threatened lions harvested from eastern and southern Africa. These permits will be required for all lions hunted on or after January 22, 2016. The FWS will need to make enhancement findings before they will issue any such permits. It is not yet clear when or how the FWS will issue these permits or make the required determination that hunting and subsequent importation enhances the survival of the species.

According to the FWS, lions hunted before January 22, 2016 will not need an ESA permit for importation. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when their lion was hunted. This can be with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Safari Club International is still in the process of reviewing the 230-page listing rule and will provide further information when our analysis is complete. The final rule and additional information can be found here.

In conjunction with the listing, the Director of the FWS, Dan Ashe, has issued Director’s Order 212, which instructs all FWS employees to deny permits to an individual who previously “has been assessed a civil penalty or convicted of any criminal provision of any statute or regulation relating to the activity for which the application is filed.” This provision has not been objectively defined and the administration could construe it as widely as possible as grounds for permit denial.

SCI President Larry Higgins today expressed his displeasure with the Obama Administration’s final listing rule and rule requiring permits to import lions. “Clearly, the White House is attempting to prevent U.S. hunters from engaging in lion hunting,” said Higgins. “We will look to challenge parts of the rule as appropriate, but this battle will not be resolved quickly. The Administration is imposing restrictions and obstacles that will not help lions, but will block U.S. hunters from participating in sustainable use conservation. Sadly, the rural communities of Africa that embrace hunting as part of their local economies will also suffer with the loss of U.S. hunters. As a result, local communities could lose their incentives to participate in lion conservation and as a result more lions will potentially die from poaching, animal control and retaliatory killings than hunters could ever take.”
 
Posts: 111 | Registered: 19 March 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff32:
I received this alert from SCI not too long ago. Glad to see them step up:

SCI Membership Alert on the FWS African lion listing

On December 21, 2015, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) announced a final rule to list African lions under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The rule, which was published in the Federal Register on December 23, 2015 lists African lions as two separate subspecies – Panthera leo leo, found in western and central Africa, and Panthera leo melanochaita, found in southern and eastern Africa. Lions in western and central Africa will be listed as endangered, while southern and eastern Africa lions will be listed as threatened. The rule goes into effect on January 22, 2016.

Together with the listing rule, the FWS issued a special “4(d) rule” that will require ESA permits for the importation of threatened lions harvested from eastern and southern Africa. These permits will be required for all lions hunted on or after January 22, 2016. The FWS will need to make enhancement findings before they will issue any such permits. It is not yet clear when or how the FWS will issue these permits or make the required determination that hunting and subsequent importation enhances the survival of the species.

According to the FWS, lions hunted before January 22, 2016 will not need an ESA permit for importation. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when their lion was hunted. This can be with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Safari Club International is still in the process of reviewing the 230-page listing rule and will provide further information when our analysis is complete. The final rule and additional information can be found here.

In conjunction with the listing, the Director of the FWS, Dan Ashe, has issued Director’s Order 212, which instructs all FWS employees to deny permits to an individual who previously “has been assessed a civil penalty or convicted of any criminal provision of any statute or regulation relating to the activity for which the application is filed.” This provision has not been objectively defined and the administration could construe it as widely as possible as grounds for permit denial.

SCI President Larry Higgins today expressed his displeasure with the Obama Administration’s final listing rule and rule requiring permits to import lions. “Clearly, the White House is attempting to prevent U.S. hunters from engaging in lion hunting,” said Higgins. “We will look to challenge parts of the rule as appropriate, but this battle will not be resolved quickly. The Administration is imposing restrictions and obstacles that will not help lions, but will block U.S. hunters from participating in sustainable use conservation. Sadly, the rural communities of Africa that embrace hunting as part of their local economies will also suffer with the loss of U.S. hunters. As a result, local communities could lose their incentives to participate in lion conservation and as a result more lions will potentially die from poaching, animal control and retaliatory killings than hunters could ever take.”


SCI and all their wisdom is the reason we are dealing with this!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of Frostbit
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jeff32:
I received this alert from SCI not too long ago. Glad to see them step up:

SCI Membership Alert on the FWS African lion listing

On December 21, 2015, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) announced a final rule to list African lions under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The rule, which was published in the Federal Register on December 23, 2015 lists African lions as two separate subspecies – Panthera leo leo, found in western and central Africa, and Panthera leo melanochaita, found in southern and eastern Africa. Lions in western and central Africa will be listed as endangered, while southern and eastern Africa lions will be listed as threatened. The rule goes into effect on January 22, 2016.

Together with the listing rule, the FWS issued a special “4(d) rule” that will require ESA permits for the importation of threatened lions harvested from eastern and southern Africa. These permits will be required for all lions hunted on or after January 22, 2016. The FWS will need to make enhancement findings before they will issue any such permits. It is not yet clear when or how the FWS will issue these permits or make the required determination that hunting and subsequent importation enhances the survival of the species.

According to the FWS, lions hunted before January 22, 2016 will not need an ESA permit for importation. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when their lion was hunted. This can be with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Safari Club International is still in the process of reviewing the 230-page listing rule and will provide further information when our analysis is complete. The final rule and additional information can be found here.

In conjunction with the listing, the Director of the FWS, Dan Ashe, has issued Director’s Order 212, which instructs all FWS employees to deny permits to an individual who previously “has been assessed a civil penalty or convicted of any criminal provision of any statute or regulation relating to the activity for which the application is filed.” This provision has not been objectively defined and the administration could construe it as widely as possible as grounds for permit denial.

SCI President Larry Higgins today expressed his displeasure with the Obama Administration’s final listing rule and rule requiring permits to import lions. “Clearly, the White House is attempting to prevent U.S. hunters from engaging in lion hunting,” said Higgins. “We will look to challenge parts of the rule as appropriate, but this battle will not be resolved quickly. The Administration is imposing restrictions and obstacles that will not help lions, but will block U.S. hunters from participating in sustainable use conservation. Sadly, the rural communities of Africa that embrace hunting as part of their local economies will also suffer with the loss of U.S. hunters. As a result, local communities could lose their incentives to participate in lion conservation and as a result more lions will potentially die from poaching, animal control and retaliatory killings than hunters could ever take.”


SCI and all their wisdom is the reason we are dealing with this!


In all fairness only one of the reasons but they do seem to be asleep at the wheel more often than not.


______________________
DRSS
______________________
Hunt Reports

2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112
2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012
DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191
Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771
Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141
Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141
 
Posts: 7624 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Lane - Can you explain to me how the actions of SCI have caused this latest ruling from USFWS?
 
Posts: 111 | Registered: 19 March 2015Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by jeff32:
I received this alert from SCI not too long ago. Glad to see them step up:

SCI Membership Alert on the FWS African lion listing

On December 21, 2015, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) announced a final rule to list African lions under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The rule, which was published in the Federal Register on December 23, 2015 lists African lions as two separate subspecies – Panthera leo leo, found in western and central Africa, and Panthera leo melanochaita, found in southern and eastern Africa. Lions in western and central Africa will be listed as endangered, while southern and eastern Africa lions will be listed as threatened. The rule goes into effect on January 22, 2016.

Together with the listing rule, the FWS issued a special “4(d) rule” that will require ESA permits for the importation of threatened lions harvested from eastern and southern Africa. These permits will be required for all lions hunted on or after January 22, 2016. The FWS will need to make enhancement findings before they will issue any such permits. It is not yet clear when or how the FWS will issue these permits or make the required determination that hunting and subsequent importation enhances the survival of the species.

According to the FWS, lions hunted before January 22, 2016 will not need an ESA permit for importation. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when their lion was hunted. This can be with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Safari Club International is still in the process of reviewing the 230-page listing rule and will provide further information when our analysis is complete. The final rule and additional information can be found here.

In conjunction with the listing, the Director of the FWS, Dan Ashe, has issued Director’s Order 212, which instructs all FWS employees to deny permits to an individual who previously “has been assessed a civil penalty or convicted of any criminal provision of any statute or regulation relating to the activity for which the application is filed.” This provision has not been objectively defined and the administration could construe it as widely as possible as grounds for permit denial.

SCI President Larry Higgins today expressed his displeasure with the Obama Administration’s final listing rule and rule requiring permits to import lions. “Clearly, the White House is attempting to prevent U.S. hunters from engaging in lion hunting,” said Higgins. “We will look to challenge parts of the rule as appropriate, but this battle will not be resolved quickly. The Administration is imposing restrictions and obstacles that will not help lions, but will block U.S. hunters from participating in sustainable use conservation. Sadly, the rural communities of Africa that embrace hunting as part of their local economies will also suffer with the loss of U.S. hunters. As a result, local communities could lose their incentives to participate in lion conservation and as a result more lions will potentially die from poaching, animal control and retaliatory killings than hunters could ever take.”


SCI and all their wisdom is the reason we are dealing with this!


In all fairness only one of the reasons but they do seem to be asleep at the wheel more often than not.


Agreed Jim..."one" of the reasons. But a big "one" as we had a deal brokered with USF&W at one time that "if" SCI and DSC would endorse the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion...they (USF&W) would look at things in a different light! SCI was aware of this deal.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Lane, you repeatedly bring this up, and while I am sure you had this deal in place,its my understanding there are a few more things that are not being said here.

Certainly, it would have cost SCI nothing to make a statement as it would have been a nonbinding statement, and if I had been in their shoes, supporting the definition seems a no-brainer.

Nevertheless, with politics and all being what they are, do you really think that Panthera et al would have stuck by us after the s-storm that was Cecil and the current administration looking for things it can stick to those who have a differing world view?

Honestly, I think we would be exactly where we are now. It is political. It has nothing to do with SCI, the Definition of a Huntable Lion, or even the hissy fit between Dr. Packer and Tanzania and the Tanzanian hunting operators.

So far, what has been proposed MAY change little except to cut back the number of folks looking at a Lion hunt in the next year or two- If USFWS looks at this as if the country has a 6 year rule, and treats it like Leopard more or less, it may be a bureaucratic issue with a $100 piece of paper. I hope that is all it is. Yes, there could be some issues for folks who have run afoul of the game laws and are listed with the multistate violation registry...but I suspect this number is quite small. Most of us obey the game laws.

On the other hand, I agree that there is nothing to say that they will not treat it the way they did elephant a couple years back. The current administration has not exactly been reasonable over the last 7 or so years.

To all who are being very negative; I think this is a big hurdle, but the fight is certainly not done. Politically, this could all be reversed by an administration that just says we have to aide by a treaty we signed and ratified (CITES). None of this is a law, it is all administrative rules- which can be changed as much at whim as it was placed...

I for one expect to try and hunt lion again- even if there is no import allowed.
 
Posts: 11118 | Location: Minnesota USA | Registered: 15 June 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
quote:
Originally posted by tomahawker:
In related news, eBay and I assume the like, have already adjusted their position on buying and selling of lion rugs/skulls/mounts due to the new listing. It's already happening


Explain please.


A couple nights ago I placed a couple bids on lion rugs. Before I could blink, the entire posts were removed from eBay. Upon asking why, I was told they were endangered(their words). As of now all lion related items (mounts, hides skulls etc.) have been removed.
 
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Nevertheless, with politics and all being what they are, do you really think that Panthera et al would have stuck by us after the s-storm that was Cecil and the current administration looking for things it can stick to those who have a differing world view?


Damn straight Dr. Butler. Luke Hunter, President of Panthera, became a good friend through all of that. I can call his cell today and he will answer and visit. He gave his word and I have no reason to believe he would not have stuck by his word.

SCI let you, I, and all hunters down on this one sir...pandering to the likes of Steve Chancellor.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


Mike
 
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quote:
To all who are being very negative; I think this is a big hurdle, but the fight is certainly not done. Politically, this could all be reversed by an administration that just says we have to aide by a treaty we signed and ratified (CITES). None of this is a law, it is all administrative rules- which can be changed as much at whim as it was placed...


Dr. Butler,
On this...I am in full agreement!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


While I agree with every bit of your logic above Mike...Trump and maybe Cruz...is still the best bet at reversing the USF&WS actions.

And if we would get off our asses and get out and educate the public on what Africa is like in reality...we might win some support...and I agree that the NRA is the likely org to help us do that.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


While I agree with every bit of your logic above Mike...Trump and maybe Cruz...is still the best bet at reversing the USF&WS actions.

And if we would get off our asses and get out and educate the public on what Africa is like in reality...we might win some support...and I agree that the NRA is the likely org to help us do that.


Lane even your fantasy candidate trump will not stand up and support repealing the ban on elephant hunting. After the picture from mother jones you like to post became public he distanced himself from his sons - supports their activities does not understand why they do it.

If you think any politician is going to step into the land mine of trophy hunting elephants and lions and make it part of any political platform we are being delusional.

Hunting elephants and lions has gone from a legal but socially questionable activity to now being for all purposes illegal (import of trophies) and social questionable/unacceptable. If you think any politician will jump on the bandwagon of elephant and lion hunting ask yourself why you don't post pictures of yourself cutting dead elephant tails on your social media accounts? It's bad for business and even worse for political campaing. Even trump with the bat sh@t crazy comments won't step into this minefield.

Once these things get on the books they are very tough to repeal - cheetah, moz elephants ect - they never come off. Getting them on is tough and getting them off is tougher. Why Dr. Palmer and Cecil was a wet dream for the antis. But now we hear nothing from if it's legal do it crowd - laws change their are not written in stone. Offend enough people with questionable behavior and there will be legal and political ramifications.

Mike
 
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quote:
Originally posted by tom ferry:
I will go back to Africa and I will hunt but it wont be a lion hunt and even if I wanted to because of this situation in a few years there may not be enough lions to hunt.


Don't worry too much and there are many here who will continue to protect what we have.

We just need to change strategies and mindset.


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Posts: 9996 | Location: Zambia | Registered: 10 April 2009Reply With Quote
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Dr. Butler's missive is well stated. I would like to add, it would be prudent to start contacting congressional representatives, particularly those on the Natural Resource committee, I believe, that has the power of the purse over Dept of Interior, hence USFWS.


Tim

 
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


While I agree with every bit of your logic above Mike...Trump and maybe Cruz...is still the best bet at reversing the USF&WS actions.

And if we would get off our asses and get out and educate the public on what Africa is like in reality...we might win some support...and I agree that the NRA is the likely org to help us do that.


Lane even your fantasy candidate trump will not stand up and support repealing the ban on elephant hunting. After the picture from mother jones you like to post became public he distanced himself from his sons - supports their activities does not understand why they do it.

If you think any politician is going to step into the land mine of trophy hunting elephants and lions and make it part of any political platform we are being delusional.

Hunting elephants and lions has gone from a legal but socially questionable activity to now being for all purposes illegal (import of trophies) and social questionable/unacceptable. If you think any politician will jump on the bandwagon of elephant and lion hunting ask yourself why you don't post pictures of yourself cutting dead elephant tails on your social media accounts? It's bad for business and even worse for political campaing. Even trump with the bat sh@t crazy comments won't step into this minefield.

Once these things get on the books they are very tough to repeal - cheetah, moz elephants ect - they never come off. Getting them on is tough and getting them off is tougher. Why Dr. Palmer and Cecil was a wet dream for the antis. But now we hear nothing from if it's legal do it crowd - laws change their are not written in stone. Offend enough people with questionable behavior and there will be legal and political ramifications.

Mike


Mike,
You forget one simple fact in your analysis. These are NOT laws voted on by congress and ratified by Presidential signature. They are executive branch agency rules. It does not take spending any political capital to appoint a hunting friendly Secretary of Inerior and then bring them into the Oval Office and tell them to begin reversing the mentality at USF&W. It can be done under the radar just as all the anti-hunting policy has been implemented.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


While I agree with every bit of your logic above Mike...Trump and maybe Cruz...is still the best bet at reversing the USF&WS actions.

And if we would get off our asses and get out and educate the public on what Africa is like in reality...we might win some support...and I agree that the NRA is the likely org to help us do that.


Lane even your fantasy candidate trump will not stand up and support repealing the ban on elephant hunting. After the picture from mother jones you like to post became public he distanced himself from his sons - supports their activities does not understand why they do it.

If you think any politician is going to step into the land mine of trophy hunting elephants and lions and make it part of any political platform we are being delusional.

Hunting elephants and lions has gone from a legal but socially questionable activity to now being for all purposes illegal (import of trophies) and social questionable/unacceptable. If you think any politician will jump on the bandwagon of elephant and lion hunting ask yourself why you don't post pictures of yourself cutting dead elephant tails on your social media accounts? It's bad for business and even worse for political campaing. Even trump with the bat sh@t crazy comments won't step into this minefield.

Once these things get on the books they are very tough to repeal - cheetah, moz elephants ect - they never come off. Getting them on is tough and getting them off is tougher. Why Dr. Palmer and Cecil was a wet dream for the antis. But now we hear nothing from if it's legal do it crowd - laws change their are not written in stone. Offend enough people with questionable behavior and there will be legal and political ramifications.

Mike


Mike,
You forget one simple fact in your analysis. These are NOT laws voted on by congress and ratified by Presidential signature. They are executive branch agency rules. It does not take spending any political capital to appoint a hunting friendly Secretary of Inerior and then bring them into the Oval Office and tell them to begin reversing the mentality at USF&W. It can be done under the radar just as all the anti-hunting policy has been implemented.


Why was Cheetah not removed one day by the republican administration or Moz elephant or Polar Bear added.

The administrative law process is complex. There is a reason why Obama administration did not add lion or elephants day 1. Both these restrictions have foundations in complex rule making - requirements from African governments of proper game management ect.

These administrative laws don't get repealed on the quite cause there are much broader ramifications for all administrative rule making across many more important issues than lion or elephant hunting.

Why these rules are complex to implement and even more complex to repeal.

Hope a republican administration repeals these rules is wishful thinking. A republican administration would definitely help slow the implementation of new rules. But I don't think lion and elephant rules get changed till African governments get their house in order - poaching control. wildlife management, corruption in hunting industry ect.

Mike
 
Posts: 13145 | Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida | Registered: 22 July 2010Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
The problem I see in undoing these actions later is that it creates a very awkward political situation, one most politicians are reluctant to take on. It is much easier politically to keep something from happening or to do nothing. It is a much more difficult political position to be in to reverse an action already taken . . . particularly if the action involves hunting lions or elephants. Who wants to be the politician that allowed folks to start hunting elephant or lion again when they were prohibited from doing so previously? I am not saying the actions of the USFWS could not be reversed, but the political dynamic is much more difficult to reverse the action than to prevent it in the first instance. Not sure there is going to be a long line of politicians (Trump included Lane) willing to stand up and say I am the person responsible for allowing trophy hunters to hunt animals that most voters feel, rightfully or wrongfully, as being entitled to protection. So a politician takes action to appease a handful of trophy hunters and risks alienating a whole bunch of non-hunters. That is why it is tough for me to be very sanguine that this action or the elephant importation ban are likely to be reversed anytime soon if ever.


While I agree with every bit of your logic above Mike...Trump and maybe Cruz...is still the best bet at reversing the USF&WS actions.

And if we would get off our asses and get out and educate the public on what Africa is like in reality...we might win some support...and I agree that the NRA is the likely org to help us do that.


Lane even your fantasy candidate trump will not stand up and support repealing the ban on elephant hunting. After the picture from mother jones you like to post became public he distanced himself from his sons - supports their activities does not understand why they do it.

If you think any politician is going to step into the land mine of trophy hunting elephants and lions and make it part of any political platform we are being delusional.

Hunting elephants and lions has gone from a legal but socially questionable activity to now being for all purposes illegal (import of trophies) and social questionable/unacceptable. If you think any politician will jump on the bandwagon of elephant and lion hunting ask yourself why you don't post pictures of yourself cutting dead elephant tails on your social media accounts? It's bad for business and even worse for political campaing. Even trump with the bat sh@t crazy comments won't step into this minefield.

Once these things get on the books they are very tough to repeal - cheetah, moz elephants ect - they never come off. Getting them on is tough and getting them off is tougher. Why Dr. Palmer and Cecil was a wet dream for the antis. But now we hear nothing from if it's legal do it crowd - laws change their are not written in stone. Offend enough people with questionable behavior and there will be legal and political ramifications.

Mike


Mike,
You forget one simple fact in your analysis. These are NOT laws voted on by congress and ratified by Presidential signature. They are executive branch agency rules. It does not take spending any political capital to appoint a hunting friendly Secretary of Inerior and then bring them into the Oval Office and tell them to begin reversing the mentality at USF&W. It can be done under the radar just as all the anti-hunting policy has been implemented.


Why was Cheetah not removed one day by the republican administration or Moz elephant or Polar Bear added.

The administrative law process is complex. There is a reason why Obama administration did not add lion or elephants day 1. Both these restrictions have foundations in complex rule making - requirements from African governments of proper game management ect.

These administrative laws don't get repealed on the quite cause there are much broader ramifications for all administrative rule making across many more important issues than lion or elephant hunting.

Why these rules are complex to implement and even more complex to repeal.

Hope a republican administration repeals these rules is wishful thinking. A republican administration would definitely help slow the implementation of new rules. But I don't think lion and elephant rules get changed till African governments get their house in order - poaching control. wildlife management, corruption in hunting industry ect.

Mike


Mike,
As I stated about a million times previously...GWB was NOT necessarily hunter friendly...due in a large part to Laura.

"Just a Republican" is NOT good enough! It must be the "right Republican"! IE: Not Jeb, Not Rubio, Not Christie, Cruz probably, Trump likely.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38165 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Friends - I would love to tell you that Lane is wrong about most of this, but fact is, he's not! I'm referring to the lion issues of course, not Trump. I too like Trump, but that's not the point here.

Lane has more direct contact with the "opposition" if you will, than anyone (to include USFWS). I believe SCI single-handedly had the opportunity to stop a lot of this - they chose not to, and the fix was really simple. I believe that, because I was told specifically that - by those that were considered the "experts" on this issue by USFWS. The same experts that advised the USFWS to do just what they have done!!! I too received emails / phone calls from the opposition (the scientists in particular that influenced the USFWS's decisions in this matter) and they were very upset with SCI's lack of support for what amounts to nothing more than a simple suggestion / guideline to follow, based on latest available science - nothing more!!! It wasn't rule, it wasn't law, it was simply a guideline - that's all. SCI, they did nothing!

Just like the Palmer incident - I didn't expect them to necessarily support Palmer, that wasn't really the issue. The issue was legal/conservation minded sport hunting of the lion, which they did NOTHING to support after said events, nothing!!! For crying out loud, even Dr. Loveridge (the man who collared Cecil himself) made a statement in favor of legal lion hunting and the fact that it does contribute to sound lion conservation. I've met the man, handed him a collar back myself. He's not a hunter, he's a lion scientist - and he said more in favor of lion hunting than the all-mighty conservation organization (SCI). Am I the only one seeing a pattern here?

When SCI gets the opportunity to step up into the role of CONSERVATION LEADER, the role we all expect them to play - they drop the ball. At least on the lion issue they have, and in my opinion this one is going to be the back breaker!

As Lane has stated - when SCI failed to support conservation we told everyone this is exactly what was going to happen! Nobody listened.


Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources
303-619-2872: Cell
globalhunts@aol.com
www.huntghr.com

 
Posts: 4888 | Location: Boise, Idaho | Registered: 05 March 2009Reply With Quote
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Well, this is what happens when you sit back and let the guilt ridden old screech owls like Ricky Gervais, Stephen Colbert and the buzzfeed hipster pajama boys constantly attack you and control the debate. The hunting as well as the outdoor industry have been doing a lousy job defending African hunting the last several years.
 
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http://www.usnews.com/news/wor...o-be-hit-by-us-rules


South Africa's lion hunting industry to be hit by new US protections which may reduce clients
The Associated Press


Associated Press Dec. 24, 2015, at 9:12 a.m. + More

By LYNSEY CHUTEL, Associated Press

JOHANNESBURG (AP) — South Africa's lion hunting industry faces new restrictions as a result of the decision this week by the U.S. government to protect African lions under the Endangered Species Act, according to conservationists.

Under the new provisions, American hunters bringing home lion trophies will need a permit, which will only be issued if the hunt is part of a science-based conservation strategy that enhances the species in the wild, the Fish and Wildlife Service said.

The new restrictions will discourage American hunters from sport hunting lions in South Africa, Humane Society International said in a statement. The organization said 620 of the 719 hunted lion trophies brought into the U.S. in 2014 came from South Africa. More than half of those were from lions bred in captivity, it said.

Trophy hunters pay between $18,000 and $24,000 to kill a five-year-old male. An eight-year-old male with an impressive mane may cost up to $75,000, according to hunting professionals.

Many of South Africa's lions that are hunted are shot in relatively small, fenced in areas, a practice called "canned hunting," said the Humane Society. The lions are bred in captivity and are familiar with people, making them easy targets for shooting in the confined areas, said the Humane Society.

"There are some very, very deep concerns about abuses in the hunting industry, specifically with the hunting of captive bred lions," said Christina Pretorius, spokeswoman for the International Fund for Animal Welfare Africa in southern Africa.


Kathi

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Posts: 9520 | Location: Chicago | Registered: 23 July 2003Reply With Quote
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Believe it or not mate we need to make an income.

That's what Al Capone said


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Posts: 2933 | Location: Texas | Registered: 07 June 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:

So far, what has been proposed MAY change little except to cut back the number of folks looking at a Lion hunt in the next year or two- If USFWS looks at this as if the country has a 6 year rule, and treats it like Leopard more or less, it may be a bureaucratic issue with a $100 piece of paper. I hope that is all it is. Yes, there could be some issues for folks who have run afoul of the game laws and are listed with the multistate violation registry...but I suspect this number is quite small. Most of us obey the game laws.



If you listen to the video of Ashe/read the literature out there on the subject, the issue of a permit will not be as simple as getting one for a leopard, and it sounds like we are certainly going to "pay for the privilege."

As for the game law infractions, let me share what happened to me. I took my son-in-law goose hunting today with a hunting buddy I met in BC on a moose hunt some years ago. After the first or second flock descended on our pit blinds, one of the guides came in and said, "Whoever has lead shells better get rid of them right now or we will all get cited."

I paid about 82 bucks for three boxes of Blind Side ammo, so I knew it wasn't me. But suppose we had been cited. According to Ashe's rule, I would not be allowed to get an export permit for lion or leopard.

This rule is not just a speed bump; it is a road block.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
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Posts: 7580 | Location: Arizona and off grid in CO | Registered: 28 July 2004Reply With Quote
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According to Ashehole you wouldn't be able to get an import permit for ANYTHING.
 
Posts: 18572 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
According to Ashehole you wouldn't be able to get an import permit for ANYTHING.


He does look like a smug prick in that video.


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Posts: 7624 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 05 February 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
According to Ashehole you wouldn't be able to get an import permit for ANYTHING.


That is how I understood it.He said something like a lion could be imported if it could be proven it is needed for scientific research and that it being imported will benefit science in some way.It is his way of saying that although it is not on the endagered list hunters still will not be able to imported it.If it is not on the endangered list and hunters can't import then that means these actions are being taken with only one goal and that is to ban hunting trophy import.
 
Posts: 11651 | Location: Montreal | Registered: 07 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Frostbite: That he is. What you see is what you get. He came and spoke at SCI's wildlife legal seminar a few years back and what a condescending dick. He had a gaggle of fully uniformed USFWS officers with him and they sat in front of me. He smugly informed us at that time that big changes were coming to ele hunting and he knew what they were but he was not going to discuss them with us. Then he went on to lecture us about the fact that we needed to be involved in anti-poaching. He was clueless and eventually John Jackson challenged him on some issues and made him look like the total ass that he was. You could feel a whole mood change come over the room from one of listening to one of anger, disgust and defiance. I believe that he hates hunters.
 
Posts: 18572 | Registered: 04 April 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Frostbite: That he is. What you see is what you get. He came and spoke at SCI's wildlife legal seminar a few years back and what a condescending dick. He had a gaggle of fully uniformed USFWS officers with him and they sat in front of me. He smugly informed us at that time that big changes were coming to ele hunting and he knew what they were but he was not going to discuss them with us. Then he went on to lecture us about the fact that we needed to be involved in anti-poaching. He was clueless and eventually John Jackson challenged him on some issues and made him look like the total ass that he was. You could feel a whole mood change come over the room from one of listening to one of anger, disgust and defiance. I believe that he hates hunters.


And I bet he wanted to quash lion hunting for years but did not have the political and public opinion momentum too. Then comes along Dr. Palmer and Cecil and suddenly both political and public opinion change in his favor. Having shady ph, outfitter and hunter along with a collared lion was all that was needed to finally implement rules that administrative agency policy makers always wanted to implement.

Mike
 
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