quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Frostbite: That he is. What you see is what you get. He came and spoke at SCI's wildlife legal seminar a few years back and what a condescending dick. He had a gaggle of fully uniformed USFWS officers with him and they sat in front of me. He smugly informed us at that time that big changes were coming to ele hunting and he knew what they were but he was not going to discuss them with us. Then he went on to lecture us about the fact that we needed to be involved in anti-poaching. He was clueless and eventually John Jackson challenged him on some issues and made him look like the total ass that he was. You could feel a whole mood change come over the room from one of listening to one of anger, disgust and defiance. I believe that he hates hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Frostbite: That he is. What you see is what you get. He came and spoke at SCI's wildlife legal seminar a few years back and what a condescending dick. He had a gaggle of fully uniformed USFWS officers with him and they sat in front of me. He smugly informed us at that time that big changes were coming to ele hunting and he knew what they were but he was not going to discuss them with us. Then he went on to lecture us about the fact that we needed to be involved in anti-poaching. He was clueless and eventually John Jackson challenged him on some issues and made him look like the total ass that he was. You could feel a whole mood change come over the room from one of listening to one of anger, disgust and defiance. I believe that he hates hunters.

Exactly....... you could feel it. There are many more in positions of power that think and feel the same. This has been apparent for a couple of decades for those who truly watch what is happening and who is getting promoted in the various bureaucracies.

It is a lot worse than many on here want to think or admit to. She is tough slogging ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
PS:
But...Dan Ashe is not necessarily the problem in hisself. I am going share something that happened but can't tell the country or names.

A friend of mine's company just hosted Dan Ashe and his staff to see their operation in Africa. My friend's opinion was that he was a reasonable person and...he is a hunter hisself.

USF&W would have liked to have seen SCI step up to the plate and have endorsed the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion and worked WITH SCI to liaison with hunters to do what it right for wildlife. AND let's not forget, there are huge problems in Africa with poaching and quota mismanagement.

If we could get a hunting org to represent us properly where we have a board to control it...(and for the record we need to scrap SCI at this point as they have tarnished ther reputation with everyone...me included) we could work with USF&W to control our own destiny.

And while sometimes, especially with administrations like the Obama administration pulling the strings, it is important to clarify rules in the court with USF&W...antagonizing them relentlessly in the court also alienates them and has never really accomplished much in a positive way. There has to be a happy medium.

The bottom Liz is that we really really need a POTUS that sees hunting as conservation...as it really is.

I thought is was important to clarify the above.

Maybe the NRA will step up and fill the void as an org.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The real problem is Barack Obama. And if we are going to fix the problem...we will replace him with someone besides Hillary Clinton. And preferably with someone who actually might try to work with hunters.

I never said Ashe was a friend to hunters...but he is only a puppet in the big scheme of things. A very reputable outfitter was able reason with him when they showed him why their lions met "the criteria."

And SCI and their ignorance and arrogance is the other problem.

But...no need to listen to me...as I only accurately predicted what was going to happen 5 years ago and couldn't convince enough people then either.

Had SCI listened...we might not be where we are today.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The real problem is Barack Obama. And if we are going to fix the problem...we will replace him with someone besides Hillary Clinton. And preferably with someone who actually might try to work with hunters.

I never said Ashe was a friend to hunters...but he is only a puppet in the big scheme of things. A very reputable outfitter was able reason with him when they showed him why their lions met "the criteria."

And SCI and their ignorance and arrogance is the other problem.

But...no need to listen to me...as I only accurately predicted what was going to happen 5 years ago and couldn't convince enough people then either.

Had SCI listened...we might not be where we are today.

SCI gives awards to really really rich people subsidized by membership from just rich people. That and a focus on running a marketing convention once a year. Conservation hunting all the other stuff is just fluff told around marketing, selling and giving awards for hunts.

Till we get away from this mindset of awards and trophies for killing animals and get a focus back on hunting the story is lost of the general public.

This lion hunting ban was in the works for a while. Numerous hunts were sold with a sales pitch of do it now before it gets illegal. Elephant was a bigger surprise.

Getting lion and elephant trophy import back is a remote chance event. Lets hope the NRA steps to preserve what remains - we need to start a grass root approach to legally (state constitution) solidify US hunting rights. I have pretty much written off leopard going forward.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
PS:
But...Dan Ashe is not necessarily the problem in hisself. I am going share something that happened but can't tell the country or names.

A friend of mine's company just hosted Dan Ashe and his staff to see their operation in Africa. My friend's opinion was that he was a reasonable person and...he is a hunter hisself.

USF&W would have liked to have seen SCI step up to the plate and have endorsed the Definition of a Huntable Male Lion and worked WITH SCI to liaison with hunters to do what it right for wildlife. AND let's not forget, there are huge problems in Africa with poaching and quota mismanagement.

If we could get a hunting org to represent us properly where we have a board to control it...(and for the record we need to scrap SCI at this point as they have tarnished ther reputation with everyone...me included) we could work with USF&W to control our own destiny.

And while sometimes, especially with administrations like the Obama administration pulling the strings, it is important to clarify rules in the court with USF&W...antagonizing them relentlessly in the court also alienates them and has never really accomplished much in a positive way. There has to be a happy medium.

The bottom Liz is that we really really need a POTUS that sees hunting as conservation...as it really is.

I thought is was important to clarify the above.

Maybe the NRA will step up and fill the void as an org.

Lane:

I have read almost the entire 230 page document. The document even states that a six year old rule might even obviate the need to establish quotas.

Why can't something like this be feasible?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
The real problem is Barack Obama. And if we are going to fix the problem...we will replace him with someone besides Hillary Clinton. And preferably with someone who actually might try to work with hunters.

I never said Ashe was a friend to hunters...but he is only a puppet in the big scheme of things. A very reputable outfitter was able reason with him when they showed him why their lions met "the criteria."

And SCI and their ignorance and arrogance is the other problem.

But...no need to listen to me...as I only accurately predicted what was going to happen 5 years ago and couldn't convince enough people then either.

Had SCI listened...we might not be where we are today.

SCI gives awards to really really rich people subsidized by membership from just rich people. That and a focus on running a marketing convention once a year. Conservation hunting all the other stuff is just fluff told around marketing, selling and giving awards for hunts.

Till we get away from this mindset of awards and trophies for killing animals and get a focus back on hunting the story is lost of the general public.

This lion hunting ban was in the works for a while. Numerous hunts were sold with a sales pitch of do it now before it gets illegal. Elephant was a bigger surprise.

Getting lion and elephant trophy import back is a remote chance event. Lets hope the NRA steps to preserve what remains - we need to start a grass root approach to legally (state constitution) solidify US hunting rights. I have pretty much written off leopard going forward.

Mike

I am with you on all of that Mike...100%!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Had TZ not revoked Craig Packer's research clearance...he wa fixing to start a series of live lion aging courses in Serengheti National Park geared specifically for PHs.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Had TZ not revoked Craig Packer's research clearance...he wa fixing to start a series of live lion aging courses in Serengheti National Park geared specifically for PHs.

Surely SCI's fault.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
My opinion is SCI does pretty good job
Can't do it all and nobody really helps them except criticizing what they don't do.
Hunting is diverse and money is in short supply
To be on all fronts, they would need at least NRA size base
Biggest threat to all hunting is Libs and USFWS with their Unlimited taxpayers money

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
My opinion is SCI does pretty good job
Can't do it all and nobody really helps them except criticizing what they don't do.
Hunting is diverse and money is in short supply
To be on all fronts, they would need at least NRA size base
Biggest threat to all hunting is Libs and USFWS with their Unlimited taxpayers money

BK,
With all due respect...Aaron and I (and others who want to remain anonymous) handed them the solution with a brokered deal (with USF&W) attached in regards to the lion and USF&WS...all they had to do was endorse as did DSC. The deal required both...SCI declined. Now...you see where we are today with the USF&W and lion...that bled onto ele.

SCI is a big part of the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

LT,
It definitely could be reversed. But, USF&WS as an executive branch agency...usually serves the agenda of the POTUS.

There is no data this support the addition of the leopard...but that does not mean anything.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

LT,
It definitely could be reversed. But, USF&WS as an executive branch agency...usually serves the agenda of the POTUS.

There is no data this support the addition of the leopard...but that does not mean anything.

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

LT,
It definitely could be reversed. But, USF&WS as an executive branch agency...usually serves the agenda of the POTUS.

There is no data this support the addition of the leopard...but that does not mean anything.

As LT said - thank you Aaron, Lane and others for your efforts. Several are talking as if future imports of leopards are already or about to be in jeopardy. Is there something in the works that someone knows about - something more definitive than the constant threat that always exists? 6 months away from leopard hunt ....

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
Some of the posts by the SCI apologists read like they were written by Baghdad Bob. Given the current perception of hunters and the rate at which we are losing places to hunt, I can't see how anyone can claim SCI has been successful in doing anything other than hosting a convention.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Aaron, Lane, etc thank you so much for your efforts and I believe what you say regarding the SCI fiasco...it is disgraceful and because of this I am reconsidering renewing my membership.

In your opinion(s) do you think that this ruling spells the end of Lion hunting?? Can it be revised, etc and do you believe that it is just the beginning of the end and that Leopard is next?

Well, let me put it to you this way sir. Today I received a message from an AR member, who's very well informed and frankly has a much greater reach than do I. You all know him, and all respect him too.

He told me the rumor was (and I have heard this several times from other reliable sources) that SCI refused to support the "Huntable Lion Definition" simply because of DSC's support/involvement. Really??? How completely and totally pathetic is that?

My point, unless we as a cohesive group of conservation minded sportsmen are willing to put aside childish turf wars and ego bumping - I see little hope any of this will be reversed or deterred in the future. Are we concerned about conservation, the species in question and hunting in general - or are we concerned about our awards programs and who came up with what ideas first? So far, I think the answer to that is quite obvious.

Now look, that's not to insinuate that there aren't some out there doing a fine job in support of conservation - but it seems to be over shadowed by the 3-horned snow goat awards and back slapping amongst the insiders.

I know this is a bit off topic, but of amusing interest to me frankly. I've hunted with, guided and know many of the guides who have guided some of these "big wig / super hunters" with more world hunting awards than most of us have trophies on our walls. The funny thing is, the real "hunters" are actually the guys guiding these folks to their many worldwide trophies. Honestly, sometimes I've been left shaking my head - asking myself has this person ever done this before? Then I see them in a future issue of some magazine congratulating them for "super hunter" of the year award! Good heavens - we seriously need to reevaluate our role as hunters IMO. I'm not saying not to be proud of one's accomplishments - but I do think the award programs give the wrong appearance to the general public that hunting to us is more of a "game/contest" than anything else.

I am without a doubt a "trophy hunter", but I trophy hunt for myself and the pure joy of what it brings to me to face off with the biggest/best out there that I can find. That's the experience I enjoy! Not because I need the acceptance and recognition of others - who see it as some reason for recognition. I have numerous trophies that would qualify for book entry, and could easily qualify for numerous "awards" too, but why? Fact is boys, nobody else gives a DAMN, they just don't care! When I completed my slam of wild NA sheep in 2014 I was congratulated for joining the "elite" fraternity of special hunters who had done so (I've yet to enter my slam with any organization) Sure, its an accomplishment I am proud of, but its not as if those who have not done so are some how inferior to myself and those that have. Its this mentality that divides us, and makes us really look like a bunch of ego maniac, entitled, over bearing goof balls - rather than sportsmen interested in conservation. We gotta stop this crap!

Same with the "meat" hunters nowadays that have taken on this mightier than thou approach to hunting - as if unless you hunt solely for meat, you aren't really a hunter! Its a foolish approach that is painting us into a dangerous corner - insinuating to the non-knowing public that unless subsistence is the reason, hunting is somehow a bad thing. Especially if you are after that big buck, rather than hunting just to fill the freezer. I mean come on folks - I too love eating wild game, I sincerely do. But how many people here know someone who literally hunts out of survival necessity? Without it, they would perish?? I know hundreds of hunters, not a single one of them falls into this category. I am sure there are a few, but it would definitely not be the norm. But if we keep insisting this is our motive, we are going to lose a lot of hunting opportunities that don't qualify as meat/subsistence hunts - guaranteed!

We have some many divides, while the antis seem to be united in one thing - all hunting is BAD!! I know I too occasionally make a mistake in regards to this message - but we really must try to come together on more common ground amongst ourselves. Otherwise LEOPARDTRACK, this is only the beginning!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:
My opinion is SCI does pretty good job
Can't do it all and nobody really helps them except criticizing what they don't do.
Hunting is diverse and money is in short supply
To be on all fronts, they would need at least NRA size base
Biggest threat to all hunting is Libs and USFWS with their Unlimited taxpayers money

BK,
With all due respect...Aaron and I (and others who want to remain anonymous) handed them the solution with a brokered deal (with USF&W) attached in regards to the lion and USF&WS...all they had to do was endorse as did DSC. The deal required both...SCI declined. Now...you see where we are today with the USF&W and lion...that bled onto ele.

SCI is a big part of the problem.

quote:

ane USF&WS was always going to do what it wanted to do and they had the audacity to sidestep CITIES and other regulatory bodies.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

ane USF&WS was always going to do what it wanted to do and they had the audacity to sidestep CITIES and other regulatory bodies.

Maybe so Andrew...but there was a time that USF&WS wanted to liaise with hunters through SCI and DSC. They gave the LCTF a chance show there was reciprocity with DSC (which there was) and SCI (which there was not).

What the LCTF asked DSC and SCI to do was endorse a good conservation practice. So when SCI turned down the chance to endorse good conservation and form a partnership bringing the worlds leading lion scientists together with the hunting community...USF&WS moved on.

And that my friend is exactly how it happened.

quote:

Lane USF&WS was always going to do what it wanted to do and they had the audacity to sidestep CITIES and other regulatory bodies.

Thank god you have a constitution that protects your rights to bear arms otherwise your guns would have gone the way of the Lion.

quote:

Packer was never on our side. His statements are easy enough to read. He is a hired gun and should never have been trusted by any hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

Packer was never on our side. His statements are easy enough to read. He is a hired gun and should never have been trusted by any hunters.

There are many who have been put into place to destroy us from within.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:

quote:

Packer was never on our side. His statements are easy enough to read. He is a hired gun and should never have been trusted by any hunters.

There are many who have been put into place to destroy us from within.

Ya guys, that's not entirely true! Lane could tell you better than I, but I can tell you from my own personal phone calls/emails with Dr. Packer that his intentions in the beginning weren't always as such. Remember, every action has a reaction!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

ane USF&WS was always going to do what it wanted to do and they had the audacity to sidestep CITIES and other regulatory bodies.

Maybe so Andrew...but there was a time that USF&WS wanted to liaise with hunters through SCI and DSC. They gave the LCTF a chance show there was reciprocity with DSC (which there was) and SCI (which there was not).

What the LCTF asked DSC and SCI to do was endorse a good conservation practice. So when SCI turned down the chance to endorse good conservation and form a partnership bringing the worlds leading lion scientists together with the hunting community...USF&WS moved on.

And that my friend is exactly how it happened.