quote:

Originally posted by Northtexas12:
So what are the big hunting organizations going to do to fight this? File lawsuits and hope the judges agree with us and rule in our favor? That didn't work with the polar bear. What other options do we have to fight this? Raise hell with our politicians until they put the heat on USFWS to drop these new regulations?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Pray . . . and light prayer candles . . . that the NRA will join the fight full force. If you are not already a life or endowment member of the NRA, now is the time to become one.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . some things are even more important than hunting. Having a competent President at this point in history falls into that category.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
There are other forums for that discussion, not going to drag this thread into that hole. If you want to, have at it.

quote:

From today's hunting report

...... a wildlife violation in an individual's history may subsequently result in being barred from importing any trophy into the US. It is unclear how serious the wildlife violation must be. The press release states that, "[This] order, which aligns with President Obama's National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking, will ensure that violators of wildlife laws are not subsequently granted permits for future wildlife-related activities, including the import of sport-hunted trophies."

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Well Bubye is a fenced area, and for sure they eat alot. To compare bvc with a wild area is not fair.


I think it will be hard for let say a Tanz ph to see that a class animals are missing from the heards of antelopes, thats nature.

The reality is american hunters just got taken of the list than can legally hunt wild lions. France and Australia has already done that. I am pretty sure the anti-lion hunting crowd will have most of the eu adopting French or US rules.

So wild lion hunting is Russians, Arabs and rest of the world.

Lets see how wild lion prices and hunts sold line up.

This cannot be good for wild lions.

Mike

Mike - That's not true! The legal hunting of a lion in Tanzania for example, by an American is not effected - only possible importation into the USA. You can still hunt them as normal, based on local rules/laws.

Yes, I agree with Mike and others - the guidelines for which one will be issued an import permit is likely going to be very difficult to say the least.

Over 60% of ALL lions exported from the continent of Africa are bound each year for the USA. The change here is likely big! I received an email from, and emailed back to JJ today asking for a clear / easy to understand interpretation from his perspective and what he really expects to happen? Waiting on that now.

Yes Anton, this will effect the lion monstrously! The inuits in the arctic are not interested in eliminating everything that moves, including the polar bear - unlike the natives in Africa. Especially when the lion has no real value to them, which is coming my friend. Comparing how the polar bear has faired versus this effect on the lion are night/day difference. I've been to where they are polar bears a couple of times, never saw another sole within 100 miles. Not the case in Africa, as you know.

Africa as a whole is the sinking TITANIC, period!!! The game will be the ultimate loser, and folks like all of us here will be asked someday to recount our experiences in books / videos, as most of the once rich game fields will ALL be gone (save a few of the popular national parks)

I'm glad to say I've done 35 DG safaris in Africa, but I hate to say it - I'm sure 35 more will never happen. The lion has been my passion for 20 years now, I'm very saddened to see what's sure to be his eventual continent wide demise as these changes continue to progress!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Director's statement...



"The Service found that sport-hunting, if well managed, may provide a benefit to the subspecies. Well-managed conservation programs use trophy hunting revenues to sustain lion conservation, research and anti-poaching activities. However, the Service found that not all trophy hunting programs are scientifically based or managed in a sustainable way. So in addition to protecting both lion subspecies under the ESA, we created a permitting mechanism to support and strengthen the accountability of conservation programs in other nations. This rule will allow for the importation of the threatened Panthera leo melanochaita, including sport-hunted trophies, from countries with established conservation programs and well-managed lion populations."

So where does this leave Zambia?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Director's statement...



"The Service found that sport-hunting, if well managed, may provide a benefit to the subspecies. Well-managed conservation programs use trophy hunting revenues to sustain lion conservation, research and anti-poaching activities. However, the Service found that not all trophy hunting programs are scientifically based or managed in a sustainable way. So in addition to protecting both lion subspecies under the ESA, we created a permitting mechanism to support and strengthen the accountability of conservation programs in other nations. This rule will allow for the importation of the threatened Panthera leo melanochaita, including sport-hunted trophies, from countries with established conservation programs and well-managed lion populations."

So where does this leave Zambia?

Jim,

We initiated a 3 year ban and the word is that quotas will be reduced by some 60%.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Director's statement...



"The Service found that sport-hunting, if well managed, may provide a benefit to the subspecies. Well-managed conservation programs use trophy hunting revenues to sustain lion conservation, research and anti-poaching activities. However, the Service found that not all trophy hunting programs are scientifically based or managed in a sustainable way. So in addition to protecting both lion subspecies under the ESA, we created a permitting mechanism to support and strengthen the accountability of conservation programs in other nations. This rule will allow for the importation of the threatened Panthera leo melanochaita, including sport-hunted trophies, from countries with established conservation programs and well-managed lion populations."

So where does this leave Zambia?

Jim,

We initiated a 3 year ban and the word is that quotas will be reduced by some 60%.

Andrew,

All well and good but I suspect the "fine print" of this verbiage from FWS is going to empower them to make decisions country to country as they have with the Elephant. Then they will want piles of documents showing counts all the while using statement from folks like Dr. Kat that there are only 40 Lions left in Zambia as their excuse to call a non-enhancement finding and ask for more studies.

Good luck Mate
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Also hoping a Trump would get elected and force a change to lion or elephant policy is wishful thinking. To change these rules the entire administrative framework has to be changed. Otherwise you will have inconsistent laws - one frame work for everything USFW does and lions and elephants excluded. Very unlikely that ever happens.

quote:

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.8 – Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

quote:

Originally posted by blanco county:
There is an article on p. 1 of the 12/21 New York Times which states that on 12/28/15 USFWS will declare lions in central and west Africa to be endangered and those in east and south Africa (Tanzania, Zimbabwe, and RSA) to be threatened. Report states that only 900 lions are left in central and west Africa.

Let the experts ( I am not one.) comment.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Well Bubye is a fenced area, and for sure they eat alot. To compare bvc with a wild area is not fair.


I think it will be hard for let say a Tanz ph to see that a class animals are missing from the heards of antelopes, thats nature.

The reality is american hunters just got taken of the list than can legally hunt wild lions. France and Australia has already done that. I am pretty sure the anti-lion hunting crowd will have most of the eu adopting French or US rules.

So wild lion hunting is Russians, Arabs and rest of the world.

Lets see how wild lion prices and hunts sold line up.

This cannot be good for wild lions.

Mike

Mike - That's not true! The legal hunting of a lion in Tanzania for example, by an American is not effected - only possible importation into the USA. You can still hunt them as normal, based on local rules/laws.

Yes, I agree with Mike and others - the guidelines for which one will be issued an import permit is likely going to be very difficult to say the least.

Over 60% of ALL lions exported from the continent of Africa are bound each year for the USA. The change here is likely big! I received an email from, and emailed back to JJ today asking for a clear / easy to understand interpretation from his perspective and what he really expects to happen? Waiting on that now.

Yes Anton, this will effect the lion monstrously! The inuits in the arctic are not interested in eliminating everything that moves, including the polar bear - unlike the natives in Africa. Especially when the lion has no real value to them, which is coming my friend. Comparing how the polar bear has faired versus this effect on the lion are night/day difference. I've been to where they are polar bears a couple of times, never saw another sole within 100 miles. Not the case in Africa, as you know.

Africa as a whole is the sinking TITANIC, period!!! The game will be the ultimate loser, and folks like all of us here will be asked someday to recount our experiences in books / videos, as most of the once rich game fields will ALL be gone (save a few of the popular national parks)

I'm glad to say I've done 35 DG safaris in Africa, but I hate to say it - I'm sure 35 more will never happen. The lion has been my passion for 20 years now, I'm very saddened to see what's sure to be his eventual continent wide demise as these changes continue to progress!!!

Aaron

Very few people pay $150K to shoot a lion on which they cannot bring back trophies.

Elephant replica tusk are easier than replica lion trophies.

I know of only one person who has ever left a lion trophy behind and came home with pictures. It is an AR member who hunted in Burkina.

May be perfectly legal to hunt lions as it is perfectly legal to hunt cheetahs for US citizen. Very few people shoots cheetahs and very few cheetah hunts are sold in US. Plus a cheetah hunt does not cost $125K.

This will have a real impact on US trophy hunters. Beyond a certain dollar point - trophies start to matter in the hunting business.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Northtexas12:
So what are the big hunting organizations going to do to fight this? File lawsuits and hope the judges agree with us and rule in our favor? That didn't work with the polar bear. What other options do we have to fight this? Raise hell with our politicians until they put the heat on USFWS to drop these new regulations?

A good start would be to vote in a friendly administration and then find someone rich enough to buy all the "progressive" media outlets, fire everyone, and actually return to responsible journalism.

THEN I WOKE UP!!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This effectively kills lion hunting for US citizens. Sure if you want to pay $125K and leave your skin behind and take just pictures you can do that.

But how many hunters will take the risk of paying for a $125K lion hunt, killing a lion and then subjecting their trophies to a complex administrative process to import.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This effectively kills lion hunting for US citizens. Sure if you want to pay $125K and leave your skin behind and take just pictures you can do that.

But how many hunters will take the risk of paying for a $125K lion hunt, killing a lion and then subjecting their trophies to a complex administrative process to import.


Mike

This kind of thinking seems common with people who "trophy hunt". Which IMO is one of the things wrong with our message. Do we hunt to fill up a trophy room? Or do we do it because we enjoying hunting and traveling to far away places and experiencing new things. If not having a stuffed lion in your den is going to stop you from traveling to Africa to experience the hunt of one. Then maybe you aren't really a hunter. Maybe your just a collector. Of course the reasons behind stopping lion imports are ridiculous but that shouldn't stop anyone from hunting one....

I'll be hunting in Tanzania and Mozambique in the next two years. If anyone is hard up for animals to show off in your trophy room let me know. You can have mine.. .

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This effectively kills lion hunting for US citizens. Sure if you want to pay $125K and leave your skin behind and take just pictures you can do that.

But how many hunters will take the risk of paying for a $125K lion hunt, killing a lion and then subjecting their trophies to a complex administrative process to import.


Mike

This kind of thinking seems common with people who "trophy hunt". Which IMO is one of the things wrong with our message. Do we hunt to fill up a trophy room? Or do we do it because we enjoying hunting and traveling to far away places and experiencing new things. If not having a stuffed lion in your den is going to stop you from traveling to Africa to experience the hunt of one. Then maybe you aren't really a hunter. Maybe your just a collector. Of course the reasons behind stopping lion imports are ridiculous but that shouldn't stop anyone from hunting one....

I'll be hunting in Tanzania and Mozambique in the next two years. If anyone is hard up for animals to show off in your trophy room let me know. You can have mine.. .

How many lions or leopards have you left behind in Africa ?

I have minimal taxidermy and don't plan to bring anything in going forward. It's cheaper buying artificial Europeans at restoration hardware.

I did bring in my lion from Burkina and will have it mounted and left at my taxidermist showroom.

But I will bet that not too many people paying $125k to hunt lion only to take a picture.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
This effectively kills lion hunting for US citizens. Sure if you want to pay $125K and leave your skin behind and take just pictures you can do that.

But how many hunters will take the risk of paying for a $125K lion hunt, killing a lion and then subjecting their trophies to a complex administrative process to import.


Mike

This kind of thinking seems common with people who "trophy hunt". Which IMO is one of the things wrong with our message. Do we hunt to fill up a trophy room? Or do we do it because we enjoying hunting and traveling to far away places and experiencing new things. If not having a stuffed lion in your den is going to stop you from traveling to Africa to experience the hunt of one. Then maybe you aren't really a hunter. Maybe your just a collector. Of course the reasons behind stopping lion imports are ridiculous but that shouldn't stop anyone from hunting one....

I'll be hunting in Tanzania and Mozambique in the next two years. If anyone is hard up for animals to show off in your trophy room let me know. You can have mine.. .

How many lions or leopards have you left behind in Africa ?

I have minimal taxidermy and don't plan to bring anything in going forward. It's cheaper buying artificial Europeans at restoration hardware.

I did bring in my lion from Burkina and will have it mounted and left at my taxidermist showroom.

But I will bet that not too many people paying $125k to hunt lion only to take a picture.

Mike

To answer your question.... If I'm lucky enough next year during my hunt. One of each

And if a hunter is spending a 125k to fill up a trophy room then he simply has a different mindset than I do. I'm not saying you or anyone else shouldn't import your trophies if that's what makes you happy but if that is what stops you from hunting those animals than you're probably hunting for the wrong reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I just did a quick count of how many animals I've left in Africa and it's well over 60. Including buff, sable, and a plethora of PG animals from 3 hunts... It's not for everyone. I understand that people really like their mounts. I'm simply saying import or not shouldn't stop someone from enjoying and experiencing a safari

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I just did a quick count of how many animals I've left in Africa and it's well over 60. Including buff, sable, and a plethora of PG animals from 3 hunts... It's not for everyone. I understand that people really like their mounts. I'm simply saying import or not shouldn't stop someone from enjoying and experiencing a safari

quote:

Originally posted by Kathi:
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/...20151217_fR_lion.pdf


Link to Federal Register Notice

Page 58 begins trophy hunting

Page 89 As a result,we do not believe that the captive-lion industry currently contributes to, reduces, or removes threats to the species.

Page 92 Unless reforms are made to the current management of trophy hunting, we expect the declines specifically documented from excessive off takes in Benin, Cameroon, Tanzania, Zambia, and Zimbabwe to continue.

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

And I am afraid we lost this battle....

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

And I am afraid we lost this battle....

Perhaps a little introspection would good idea to try and understand what we did as hunters to contribute to the loss of the battle . . . like SCI refusing to adopt the definition of a huntable male, continuing to allow canned lion hunting, shooting too many immature males, engaging in practices that while legal are questionable ethically, etc. I will be the first to concede that my attitude was once that if it was your lion hunt and you wanted to take a less than fully mature lion, that was your prerogative. Attitudes like that undoubtedly contributed to this happening. To me the big take away is that we have understand, consider and adapt within reason based on how our actions are perceived by the broader public. That does not mean kowtowing to public opinion but it does mean being aware of public opinion and staying away from activities that are likely to precipitate a public outcry. I think the days of just saying, "to hell with what others think I am going to do what I want to do" are over. The lesson here is that you can get away with that attitude for a time, but eventually public opinion will catch up with you.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

And I am afraid we lost this battle....

Perhaps a little introspection would good idea to try and understand what we did as hunters to contribute to the loss of the battle . . . like SCI refusing to adopt the definition of a huntable male, continuing to allow canned lion hunting, shooting too many immature males, engaging in practices that while legal are questionable ethically, etc. I will be the first to concede that my attitude was once that if it was your lion hunt and you wanted to take a less than fully mature lion, that was your prerogative. Attitudes like that undoubtedly contributed to this happening. To me the big take away is that we have understand, consider and adapt within reason based on how our actions are perceived by the broader public. That does not mean kowtowing to public opinion but it does mean being aware of public opinion and staying away from activities that are likely to precipitate a public outcry. I think the days of just saying, "to hell with what others think I am going to do what I want to do" are over. The lesson here is that you can get away with that attitude for a time, but eventually public opinion will catch up with you.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

And I am afraid we lost this battle....

Perhaps a little introspection would good idea to try and understand what we did as hunters to contribute to the loss of the battle . . . like SCI refusing to adopt the definition of a huntable male, continuing to allow canned lion hunting, shooting too many immature males, engaging in practices that while legal are questionable ethically, etc. I will be the first to concede that my attitude was once that if it was your lion hunt and you wanted to take a less than fully mature lion, that was your prerogative. Attitudes like that undoubtedly contributed to this happening. To me the big take away is that we have understand, consider and adapt within reason based on how our actions are perceived by the broader public. That does not mean kowtowing to public opinion but it does mean being aware of public opinion and staying away from activities that are likely to precipitate a public outcry. I think the days of just saying, "to hell with what others think I am going to do what I want to do" are over. The lesson here is that you can get away with that attitude for a time, but eventually public opinion will catch up with you.

Good post Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:

And I am afraid we lost this battle....

Perhaps a little introspection would good idea to try and understand what we did as hunters to contribute to the loss of the battle . . . like SCI refusing to adopt the definition of a huntable male, continuing to allow canned lion hunting, shooting too many immature males, engaging in practices that while legal are questionable ethically, etc. I will be the first to concede that my attitude was once that if it was your lion hunt and you wanted to take a less than fully mature lion, that was your prerogative. Attitudes like that undoubtedly contributed to this happening. To me the big take away is that we have understand, consider and adapt within reason based on how our actions are perceived by the broader public. That does not mean kowtowing to public opinion but it does mean being aware of public opinion and staying away from activities that are likely to precipitate a public outcry. I think the days of just saying, "to hell with what others think I am going to do what I want to do" are over. The lesson here is that you can get away with that attitude for a time, but eventually public opinion will catch up with you.