This is not a rant. I saw read a few things today and I thought I'd post this here to foster a healthy discussion that needs to take place (I think).

So I finally got around to watching this weeks TAA lion hunt this morning and was struck by a couple things. First the PH turns down a lion early in the hunt. His reason to the camera is it doesn't have enough mane. It looked to be a young lion, but there was no mention of that at all. Only it didn't have the mane. Secondly later in the broadcast Shayne Mahoney (sp?) does his conservation piece about the African lion and how sport hunting is the salvation of the African lion with "scientifically minded, well managed sport hunting". Quite unfortunately at no point does he mention what "scientifically minded, well managed sport hunting" for lion is. Nor does he mention anything about determining what the right lion is. So between the PH seemingly emphasizing mane size as the only determining factor on weather a lion should be shot and the Conservation corner totally missing the boat I was a little frustrated/disappointed. It seemed like a missed opportunity to educate lion hunters or potential lion hunters on REAL lion conservation and how it relates to best practices with lion hunting.

So that was on my mind this morning when I checked Tim Herald's running hunt report and read this from Buzz Charlton:

"wow- thats tough Tim! Having been on the receiving end of the "save the lion campaign" with regards to age of the cat, I sent in two skulls of lion shot last season to 3 individuals considered experts in lions and lion aging.

This including Chap Esterhuizen who has been heavily involved in the Save lions and now is Zimbabwes leading Gov vet focusing on wildlife and lions in-particular and even with the aid of unlimited time, tape measures , magnifine glasses etc we had ages varying from 4 to 6.

So my question is how the heck to do you make a call in the bush even if you have the unlikely situation of perfect light and at 20 yards? Like me or not for saying this- If it is mature in my eyes and acceptable to my clients eyes I will take it and be happy with it!

If areas like the above and some Tanzanian areas that have these strict rules then I feel that once a lion has been unsuccessfully hunted they should not be aloud to re-sell these hunts as re selling a single lion 5 times over as seems to happen leads me to think that this may be a financial decision rather then a conversational one!

All that said Tim I really hope that in your remaining days you find a blind, geriatric, toothless, arthritic lame lion that is not totally bald - then may be, just maybe ,he will pass the test and you will shoot your hard earned trophy! Good luck Tim you do deserve one for sure!"


To Buzz:

I understand from the messages from you and many other PHs that determining age is difficult under field conditions. I get that. I also want you to understand that I am not criticizing or telling you how it is done. I'm not even going to pretend like I can tell someone with your field experience how it is done. What I am saying is that just because something is hard or even extremely difficult doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done......or at least attempted. I'm a chiropractor. I do a LOT of gait analysis today. When I was first in school I pretty much thought gait analysis was impossible. I suppose I could have stuck with that and still not been doing it today. That said I did stick with it. Was I good at it at first? No. Did I always get it right? No. The point was I tried to do it and eventually I was able to do it reliably. If you keep telling yourself something is too hard or impossible it will always be so. This has pretty much been my observation my whole life and can be applied to countless scenarios.

Brett

PS> Dave this in not meant to be a stick in your eye with TAA. I still love the show and its the best African hunting show on TV.

Buzz,

I would also add that after analysis from multiple experienced PHs and an experienced client it was determined post fact that Stu DID get it right under FIELD conditions.

Brett

I think what Buzz and I mean are, its starting to get ridiculous and impossible when you think a PH can judge a lion in months in field conditions...And really what does it matter if a lion is 5.5 or 6.1 years ??? I think all people starting to get hung up on age when the critera to take a lion is much more than just "HE NEEDS TO BE 6 YEARS OLD"..Or am I mistaken ?

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I think what Buzz and I mean are, its starting to get ridiculous and impossible when you think a PH can judge a lion in months in field conditions...And really what does it matter if a lion is 5.5 or 6.1 years ??? I think all people starting to get hung up on age when the critera to take a lion is much more than just "HE NEEDS TO BE 6 YEARS OLD"..Or am I mistaken ?

I don't think you are mistaken. I would imagine the lion not being in a pride with cubs would trump even age considerations. And again no mention was made of that either on TAA this week. It would be ridiculous for someone to expect a lion to be judged down the the month. I don't think anyone expects that. I think they are looking for/expecting estimates within 1 year. Hence they allow for one 5 year old lion to be shot in Nyassa without loss of quota.

Brett

Brett
No foul at all. Remember, our Conservation Messages are on average about 60 second in length. If anyone can put the mountain of info, opposing views, science, area specific ( and I could go on and on and on) info into a 60 sec sound bite I will air it and give credit at show end. Pretty big topic, but we try.
Not trying to be snippy here, I promise, but if a client was paying you $50-100 grand for a once in a life time "gait analysis" how would you like to give it under the following conditions.
1) You have never seen this patient before and have zero background info on him. 2) you get 20 seconds, with low light, to see his gait for the first and only time and make a clear and accurate analysis on the "treatment" you recommend, remembering a mis -cue here will result in this patients inability to ever get help from you, his 'hired professional.'
To many lion surveys are done on cats resting in the shade of a Land Rover in the crater or in the Mara. Hunting, especially lion hunting, happens in thick bush, happens fast,and carries huge financial pressure on both clients AND PH's these days.Nothing is impossible, but some( like exact aging on lions) is difficult at best, and impossible in most cases. Areas are different, as are the lions in them. Again, as I put on Tim's post, I wish we all could kill a 20 year old lion on every safari. NOBODY would be happier than Dave. We just finished up our 9th consecutive Tanzania 21 day lion safari on video without one dead lion!!!!! And we hunt in the good areas. Figure my cost on that one. I for one have just about had my fill of Mr.Lion for a while.
But again, I appreciate your input man. It is just a tough thing on this species and it is taking a lot of the majic out of this particular hunt.

The "6 year old" criteria is certainly a judgement call and for a PH it's a judgement under very difficult conditions.

In honesty my Lion was evaluated for probably less than 10 seconds. Is it 6 years old? I don't know. I've asked after the fact and have gotten opinions based on photos of 5-7.

It was not in a pride with cubs, it was in a hunting coalition with three other adults. It was taken in Zambia were legally I could have shot this at 7 feet in front of the blind and kept it.



The only way the hunter and PH present would have put a bullet in that lion was self defense.

I think discussions on this topic are good but this is not an exact science either.

Dave,

Everything is impossible if you don't try. I'm sure PHs that have hunted the valley as much a Buzz could reasonably be expected to make a differentiation between a 2-4 year old valley lion and a 5-7+ year old valley lion. Again ZERO mention of lion pride dynamics. Is anyone even considering that in Zimbabwe or is it dead if it's hairy? I'm asking. What's the story?

"1) You have never seen this patient before and have zero background info on him. 2) you get 20 seconds, with low light, to see his gait for the first and only time and make a clear and accurate analysis on the "treatment" you recommend, remembering a mis -cue here will result in this patients inability to ever get help from you, his 'hired professional.'"

No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it. Perhaps we are talking about a shift in PH mentality from "first keep the client happy" to "first do no harm"?

Brett

Good point maybe. But you see my point, as I do yours. As for Zim, well thats a big place and lots of different opinions even from guys hunting for the same company.
Well, poor Tim might make a good doctor as he sure did no harm to the big lion he saw and had in his scope. This is a tough subject, with lots of moving parts and opinions.

Me not being a lion hunter enjoyed the TAA episode Dave. I especially appreciated the tribute to Owain. It's DVR'd and it is one that I won't delete. Thanks
Rick Taylor

It is hard to tell the age of humans just by looking at them for a few seconds. How can a PH tell the age of a lion in the field in fading light?

To Buzz-
I understand from the messages from you and many other PHs that determining age is difficult under field conditions. I get that. I also want you to understand that I am not criticizing or telling you how it is done. I'm not even going to pretend like I can tell someone with your field experience how it is done. What I am saying is that just because something is hard or even extremely difficult doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done......or at least attempted. I'm a chiropractor. I do a LOT of gait analysis today. When I was first in school I pretty much thought gait analysis was impossible. I suppose I could have stuck with that and still not been doing it today. That said I did stick with it. Was I good at it at first? No. Did I always get it right? No. The point was I tried to do it and eventually I was able to do it reliably. If you keep telling yourself something is too hard or impossible it will always be so. This has pretty much been my observation my whole life and can be applied to countless scenarios.[/quote]

Hi Brett

Thanks for starting this as a new thread as I could see Tims brilliant hunt report getting swamped and that would truly have been a pity!

Brett I will make one last comment to this subject as it has been covered in MANY similar threads and it invariably turns into a pissing contest for which I have little time or interest for!

You make a very good analogy with your job been a chiropract specialising in gait analyses. You mention how long it took you to get it right and how eventually you did. Remember this- and we will take Kambakos area as an example- I think they have 2 lions on quota a year, they have several PHs so lets given them the benefit of doubt that they each do a lion every other year- If we take your approach

“No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it.”

I can guarantee you NO HARM will ever be done to the lions there as with the limited opportunity of gaining the necessary experience to be in a position where you make the right call every time.

I am afraid like Kambako with the very limited lion quota available today through out Africa you will not find a PH gaining sufficient experience in the “lion department” to be able to call a lion 5 and not 6 years old or 4 and not 5. I would put my money on it that even todays TOP LION hunters would, if put under oath, admit to that.

In Zim, which has probably the biggest lion quota, your leading Lion hunter has to be Ian Gibson. He has shot on average 3 lions a year since I started hunting which is getting close to 20 years now- so that’s +-60 lions- ask Ian the exact age of a certain cat even in perfect conditions and I can assure you I know what his answer will be!

If one has to wait as long as Ian has been hunting and gain as much “in the field” experience as he has before one may be considered “ experienced enough “ to make a call “ so as no harm is done” the lions are safe and may as well be taken off quota as they will never be shot.

Brett- we all do our best and we all try to make the right call on a mature cat but I am afraid having been in the game for quite awhile I do not believe that there is a PH out there that can call a cat 5 or 6 consistently every time.

On a final point about the “right lion” this BS about only shoot lion that is not a member of a pride- On paper it looks good but in reality it is impossible to tell. An example this season has been a lion that Aaron was trying to kill in Chewore North. He was a very distinct “one eyed beauty” all by himself. I have pics of him with a pride in Dande North he then traveled to Chewore South where Len Taylor tried to kill him and then moved to Chewore North and then Sapi. The point being when Aaron wanted to kill him he was single but he is a member of a pride- neither Ian or Aaron would have known any better had they killed that cat , nor should that have made a difference in their decision to shoot it should the opportunity have presented itself.

Further more , the argument which has come up here before, that with the aid of trail cams one should know your lions in your area- well the distance that that particular cat traveled puts that to rest as he came from Moz then traveled through 5 huge hunting areas!

Cheers Buzz

I have read most lion related discussions on the board and I am still confused about this aging criteria.

The black nose theory has been put to rest with several pictures proving it insufficient.

The scar theory can't be relied on since it depends on the lion's life experiences. A four year old lion who had several wrestling matches with a pack of hyenas and a couple of kicks in the face from a zebra will show more scars than the 7 year old who didn't.

Mane is the result of genetics and terrain as much as it is the result of age.

After the cub loses its spots and grows mane close to the forehead, what physical attributes will distinguish a 5 year old from a 7 year old, especially in areas not known for thick manes?

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

On a final point about the “right lion” this BS about only shoot lion that is not a member of a pride- On paper it looks good but in reality it is impossible to tell. An example this season has been a lion that Aaron was trying to kill in Chewore North. He was a very distinct “one eyed beauty” all by himself. I have pics of him with a pride in Dande North he then traveled to Chewore South where Len Taylor tried to kill him and then moved to Chewore North and then Sapi. The point being when Aaron wanted to kill him he was single but he is a member of a pride- neither Ian or Aaron would have known any better had they killed that cat , nor should that have made a difference in their decision to shoot it should the opportunity have presented itself.

Further more , the argument which has come up here before, that with the aid of trail cams one should know your lions in your area- well the distance that that particular cat traveled puts that to rest as he came from Moz then traveled through 5 huge hunting areas!

Cheers Buzz

I think most Professional hunters and clients want to hunt mature lions and lions that don't hold a pride.
The PH should do what he can to make sure the criterias are fullfilled.

But I find it completly ridiculus when a PH/Outfitter looses his quota if he shoots a 5year old instead of a 6year old!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

On a final point about the “right lion” this BS about only shoot lion that is not a member of a pride- On paper it looks good but in reality it is impossible to tell. An example this season has been a lion that Aaron was trying to kill in Chewore North. He was a very distinct “one eyed beauty” all by himself. I have pics of him with a pride in Dande North he then traveled to Chewore South where Len Taylor tried to kill him and then moved to Chewore North and then Sapi. The point being when Aaron wanted to kill him he was single but he is a member of a pride- neither Ian or Aaron would have known any better had they killed that cat , nor should that have made a difference in their decision to shoot it should the opportunity have presented itself.

Further more , the argument which has come up here before, that with the aid of trail cams one should know your lions in your area- well the distance that that particular cat traveled puts that to rest as he came from Moz then traveled through 5 huge hunting areas!

Cheers Buzz

I think most Professional hunters and clients want to hunt mature lions and lions that don't hold a pride.
The PH should do what he can to make sure the criterias are fullfilled.

But I find it completly ridiculus when a PH/Outfitter looses his quota if he shoots a 5year old instead of a 6year old!!!

He doesn't. I'm assuming you're talking about the Nyassa system. If he shoots a lion under 5 years old he loses a lion on quota. If he shoots two 5 year old lions in a season he loses a lion on quota. If he shoots one 5 year old lion his quota stays the same. If he shoots all 6 year plus I believe they add a lion to the following year's quotta.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

Hi Brett

Thanks for starting this as a new thread as I could see Tims brilliant hunt report getting swamped and that would truly have been a pity!

Brett I will make one last comment to this subject as it has been covered in MANY similar threads and it invariably turns into a pissing contest for which I have little time or interest for!

You make a very good analogy with your job been a chiropract specialising in gait analyses. You mention how long it took you to get it right and how eventually you did. Remember this- and we will take Kambakos area as an example- I think they have 2 lions on quota a year, they have several PHs so lets given them the benefit of doubt that they each do a lion every other year- If we take your approach

“No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it.”

I can guarantee you NO HARM will ever be done to the lions there as with the limited opportunity of gaining the necessary experience to be in a position where you make the right call every time.

I am afraid like Kambako with the very limited lion quota available today through out Africa you will not find a PH gaining sufficient experience in the “lion department” to be able to call a lion 5 and not 6 years old or 4 and not 5. I would put my money on it that even todays TOP LION hunters would, if put under oath, admit to that.

In Zim, which has probably the biggest lion quota, your leading Lion hunter has to be Ian Gibson. He has shot on average 3 lions a year since I started hunting which is getting close to 20 years now- so that’s +-60 lions- ask Ian the exact age of a certain cat even in perfect conditions and I can assure you I know what his answer will be!

If one has to wait as long as Ian has been hunting and gain as much “in the field” experience as he has before one may be considered “ experienced enough “ to make a call “ so as no harm is done” the lions are safe and may as well be taken off quota as they will never be shot.

Brett- we all do our best and we all try to make the right call on a mature cat but I am afraid having been in the game for quite awhile I do not believe that there is a PH out there that can call a cat 5 or 6 consistently every time.

On a final point about the “right lion” this BS about only shoot lion that is not a member of a pride- On paper it looks good but in reality it is impossible to tell. An example this season has been a lion that Aaron was trying to kill in Chewore North. He was a very distinct “one eyed beauty” all by himself. I have pics of him with a pride in Dande North he then traveled to Chewore South where Len Taylor tried to kill him and then moved to Chewore North and then Sapi. The point being when Aaron wanted to kill him he was single but he is a member of a pride- neither Ian or Aaron would have known any better had they killed that cat , nor should that have made a difference in their decision to shoot it should the opportunity have presented itself.

Further more , the argument which has come up here before, that with the aid of trail cams one should know your lions in your area- well the distance that that particular cat traveled puts that to rest as he came from Moz then traveled through 5 huge hunting areas!

Cheers Buzz

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Buzz. I would agree that gaining an Ian Gibson life time of lion hunting experience would be impractical for a PH before they are turned loose. That said must one kill a lion in order to learn from it? I've learned more about brown bear aging and sexing from my three bear viewing experiences in Alaska than I have from my hunting experiences.

I've just heard a few stories lately about some of "the best Zimbabwean PHs in the business" that were less than flattering with regard to interest in lion conservation. It would seem that the call as to weather a PH says shoot or not on a 3-4 year old lion in Zimbabwe has everything to do with weather it's day 3 or day 18 and nothing to do with what's best for lions.

Buzz....What do you think about a mandatory sample system from all lions taken to facilitate aging of males harvested? Would you voluntarily send in samples from all your lions harvested to be analyzed for age? How about you Dave? Would the Chufuti boys be willing to send in samples from ALL their lions harvested for age analysis? I think this would be a good important step even before we start to talk about implementing age rules. If PHs are trying their best let's see what their best is. My gut instinct is that an appauling number of 2-4 year old lions are being taken, but that's my guess.

Brett

quote:

will take Kambakos area as an example- I think they have 2 lions on quota a year

As far as I know they have 6 lions on quota a year

quote:

Originally posted by Dmitriy:

quote:

will take Kambakos area as an example- I think they have 2 lions on quota a year

As far as I know they have 6 lions on quota a year

With the 5/6 year old criteria in place it must be an area with "herds" of lions to be able to sustain an annual quota of 6.

Bret, have you ever hunted lion? If so where?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:


No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it.

Brett

Exactly the same in my profession and most of my clients have spent $50,000 - $500,000 on my patients and expect results.

Brett,
Your post has taken the words right out of my mouth...just have not had the time or the spirit to type it.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:


No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it.

Brett

My experience is limited to lion tracking/stalking in westafrica.
If you see a male lion, you better shoot fast or will go home empty handed. There is no time to count the scars or look at his teeth.
This is hunting and not about how we'd act in our jobs.

Lane,
What kind of vet are you?

Last year my PH had two male lions and some females on quota. I shot one of the males. It's skull measurement exceeds the SCI record book minimum. It was day 18 of a 21 day hunt. I don't know if the lion was 5/6 years old or not, but it came to our bait with two other similar-looking males. It's nose was "sort of" black in my opinion. I figured it was not a "pride male." Either the three were not members of a pride (except their own selves) or the other two would return to a pride. There were many prides with females and cubs in the area.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Last year my PH had two male lions and some females on quota. I shot one of the males. It's skull measurement exceeds the SCI record book minimum. It was day 18 of a 21 day hunt. I don't know if the lion was 5/6 years old or not, but it came to our bait with two other similar-looking males. It's nose was "sort of" black in my opinion. I figured it was not a "pride male." Either the three were not members of a pride (except their own selves) or the other two would return to a pride. There were many prides with females and cubs in the area.

Did I do anything wrong? I don't think so.

As long as you were not in Tanzania or Niassa I'd say you are fine!

Well, we've certainly been through this a time or two - and I think there's a real easy way to to sum it all up. Every PH should do their BEST to shoot what they believe to be a fully mature male lion, one without dependent cubs. The rest of it, will always be up for debate. Obviously in places like Tanzania now, and the Niassa, one has laws/rules to consider too - but in Zim, that's not yet the case.

I think the part that bothers some of us, as it pertains to the lion - is in my opinion, very simple. Every PH I know of now, will refuse to allow their client to shoot a soft-bossed buffalo bull, they certainly won't shoot a teen-age elephant bull of 20 - 25lbs, they never shoot Kudu bulls that haven't finished their curl, etc, etc, but yet - some will still shoot an obviously im-mature/3 - 4 yr old lion, as long as the client is happy, and the quota is available???? And yet, the Lion faces more scrutiny, and more future difficulty, than all the above mentioned species combined!!!! That's the part that I will never understand, and never agree with.

Fact is, had Tim Herald not been hunting the Niassa - where the PH is really tied to the rule system, who in the world would fault him/the PH for shooting the dark maned male lion in his pics?? Certainly not I! Is he 5, is he 6, - hell I'm not sure, especially by looking at a couple of pics on the internet? But he's definitely NOT a young/immature male, and shooting him could NOT be condemned - IMO.

Its shooting a lion like one of the one's picuted below, that SHOULD be seen as in-appropriate, IMO. And whether you agree or not, is totally up to you. But, shooting lions like the ones pictured below is certainly what has led the nay-sayers to the steps which we see implemented today! So, take it for what you will.

I leave Tuesday the 7th, for Tanzania! I will be there for a month, and I start off as the PH on my first ever safari as the guy in charge. My client has one thing in mind, a BIG LION!! As I've stated before, I think the 6 yr old or nothing law in TZ is WRONG! But its now the law, and partly because "WE" as hunters/PH's could not abide by a very simple un-written conservation goal - that is to only harvest mature species. So now, I'll have to do my very best to follow the law, and at the same time - try to get my client what she wants most, a BIG LION!!!

If we don't abide by the same "mature" species goals in the other countries (Zim for example) the same "over-bearing" laws are gonna come there too!!!! JMO of course.



This is the same lion in the pic above - the one lying down. PLEASE DON'T SHOOT!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Bret, have you ever hunted lion? If so where?

Hi Bob. No I have not. I'm hoping to rectify that soon. How about yourself?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:


No snap decisions in my profession. "First do no harm." If I don't have all the info I need I wait until I have it.

Brett

My experience is limited to lion trekking/stalking in westafrica.
If you see a male lion, you better shoot fast or will go home empty handed. There is no time to count the scars or look at his teeth.
This is hunting and not about how we'd act in our jobs.

Lane,
What kind of vet are you?

Very true. Perhaps not a perfect fit. Never the less there might need to be a shift in order of importance from "first keep the client happy" towards "first do no harm" even if it doesn't always work perfectly.

A good example though of a scenario where the job is even that much harder.

Brett

So which Zimbabwean operators are willing to voluntarily submit samples from ALL their lions to be aged? Buzz, Dave, Martin, Ivan? Anybody?

I think this is a very logical first step.

Brett

I'm headed out for a few days of grizzly bear hunting and grayling fishing. Have a good weekend all!

Brett

Three, one in western Tanzania, one in Zimbabwe and one along time ago twenty plus years matter of fact on the South African/Botswanna border. With that said I have passed up more than a handful in my small time afield in the same coutries as well as Zambia.

Buzz, in my opinion is spot on with what he has said.

I respect your profession and the DVM as well, but I really doubt that either of you have had perfect results with your professional practices nor will you be perfect on your remaining years of practice there are too many variables that can effect the outcome but you as professional will no doubtly try your best to always try to be better.

It is my opionion and mine only that someone like Buzz and the many other PH's are trying their best to be as responsible as they can for many different reasons.

I live in Wyoming, you may ask what the heck does that have to do with it? The explanation is I have been a big cat specificaly mtn lion hunter for the past twenty seven years. In that time I have learned a bunch about cats. In short I will tell you with limited quotas the biggest killer of cats is not the hunter it is other cats and disease. With that said I think the African lion is not much different.

In closing someday I hope you get to go lion hunting. I also hope you will learn to listen and learn from the people that have been and are afield that actually are lion hunters that are trying to tell you how it really is afield especially the fellows that hunt the true wild areas before you try and spread a myth about how it should be on a hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Everything is impossible if you don't try. I'm sure PHs that have hunted the valley as much a Buzz could reasonably be expected to make a differentiation between a 2-4 year old valley lion and a 5-7+ year old valley lion. Again ZERO mention of lion pride dynamics.
Brett

Exactly - with the rare exception of an honest mistake! Personally, I'm not asking anyone to be perfect - just try to do what's right by the species, which is the African Lion!

Brett, if everyone in Zim would do as you request - in 10 minutes each PH could collect all criteria needed to efficiently age each lion taken. A close up series of pics, and the 2nd pre-molar, and presto! Dr. White & Dr. Easter would be more than happy to x-ray them, I guarantee you. It would be a great learning tool for all involved, one that's voluntary - and would show a great deal of fore-thought on behalf of the Zim hunting community!

Buzz, if you really want to know the age of the lion in question - send the 2nd pre-molar to me, or bring to DSC. I can give it to Dr. White, it can be x-rayed and evaluated for age. In fact, if you send me up close pics of the skull/teeth - multiple angles, I am sure she can give you a good estimate via pics. They just did that with one sent in by "Doctari". The scientists who KNOW how to age them based on the visual criteria, all aged this lion at the same. There was no huge descrepency.

Bob,

I would no sooner tell Buzz how it's done than fly to the moon. I started this thread so that people like Buzz, Dave, Aaron, and other people who do actually have experience could talk about this for everyne to participate and read.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Three, one in western Tanzania, one in Zimbabwe and one along time ago twenty plus years matter of fact on the South African/Botswanna border. With that said I have passed up more than a handful in my small time afield in the same coutries as well as Zambia.

Buzz, in my opinion is spot on with what he has said.

I respect your profession and the DVM as well, but I really doubt that either of you have had perfect results with your professional practices nor will you be perfect on your remaining years of practice there are too many variables that can effect the outcome but you as professional will no doubtly try your best to always try to be better.

It is my opionion and mine only that someone like Buzz and the many other PH's are trying their best to be as responsible as they can for many different reasons.

I live in Wyoming, you may ask what the heck does that have to do with it? The explanation is I have been a big cat specificaly mtn lion hunter for the past twenty seven years. In that time I have learned a bunch about cats. In short I will tell you with limited quotas the biggest killer of cats is not the hunter it is other cats and disease. With that said I think the African lion is not much different.

In closing someday I hope you get to go lion hunting. I also hope you will learn to listen and learn from the people that have been and are afield that actually are lion hunters that are trying to tell you how it really is afield especially the fellows that hunt the true wild areas before you try and spread a myth about how it should be on a hunt.

Bob - With all due respect, there's certainly PH's/outfitters in Africa (unlike Buzz) that are NOT trying their best to be responsible! Perhaps unlike Brett, I have seen it with my own two eyes. Its a problem that has gotten better in recent years, but still exists far too often.

No doubt your assessment of Mtn Lion demise is accurate, but without question - the biggest killer of the African lion is MAN! To include human encroachment/habitat loss, poaching/poisoning. Not necessarily inflicted by legit "hunting" operations/hunters, but the biggest problem none-the-less.

Again, unlike Brett - I have hunted lions, many times, in many countries in fact. And Brett's assessment is pretty accurate! With the rare exception, any PH worth a darn can tell a 2-4 yr old (immature Lion) from a 5 yr old plus (mature Lion). The problem is those that are still willing to shoot what is an obviously YOUNG lion. NOT, whether or NOT the PH knows for sure if the lion is 5, or 6, or 7, etc. Keep shooting these young lions, and we will continue to see the lion lose, and more laws like the one in TZ - implemented elsewhere.

If you really want to do something for lions you need to preach human population control, remove all chemicals that can be used as poison, remove the millions of snares afield but most imporantly keep interest in lions thru hunting as that is where the big money comes to support the game departments and the lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Bob - With all due respect, there's certainly PH's/outfitters in Africa (unlike Buzz) that are NOT trying their best to be responsible! Perhaps unlike Brett, I have seen it with my own two eyes. Its a problem that has gotten better in recent years, but still exists far too often.

Aaron,
wouldn't it be easier to fight just against these guys instead of lumping all together and punish everyone with rules that make hunting difficult and less interesting

Anybody that wants to comment,

So what can the lion hunting novice do in a country that does not have a strict 6 year old rule other than discuss with his PH that he wants a lion of minimum 5/6 years and then leave it to the PH's judgement? My limited experience with lions is that they often are seen in very low light and the mane and body size are the only real distinguishable features. If the PH says shoot who would not shoot? How much more responsible can an inexperienced client hunter be?

Mark

Bob,

what would be your recommendations on how to ensure the sustainability of lion hunting to the hunting professionals and clients?

It seems from your posts on this subject that you are for the status quo?

Caracal,
The reasons stricter rules are bieng put in place is because hunters (PHs and clients) are simply shooting too many immture lions. Its not Aaron that is dreaming these rules up.

I agree though with fighting those that are indiscriminate simply to make the client happy and get the $$. But whenever that has been attempted by some here, they get labelled with all kinds of nasty stuff.

Aaron, who are these ph's that are not being responsible? I think their names should be published.

Mark,
I see what you are saying but the #1 thing they can do is research the subject of age at length prior to going on safari, discuss ad infinitum wiht his PH and importantly, let the PH know that he DOES NOT need to shoot a lion at all costs - even on day 18 of a 21 day safari - and is quite happy to go home empty handed if that is what Diana wants.

At the same time, researching operators that have a proven track record in sustainable lion hunting practices and booking with them would help.

Just my 2 cents on this

Bwanamich, I think someone like Buzz or many of the other great ph's would be better at saying what should be done. No doubt there is a basketful of things in each area that needs to be considered.