quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
ledvm,

One thing that wild lifers have learned is that if the public (PHs) don't buy into the rule or law, it probably won't work. I also think there are more than one way to achieve the goals most of us can agree on, that is to reduce or eliminate young lion take. Let's keep our options open to find a better and more acceptable solution than a strict six-year old rule.

465H&H

quote:

Let's keep our options open to find a better and more acceptable solution than a strict six-year old rule.

quote:

Originally posted by lorefuma:
a question: how when the lion is on the ground the exact age is determined? also with istological metods (like the comunt of cementum laiers in the teeth) a 1-2 years error is normal

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Bwanamich is correct - I am pretty confident of judging the difference between a 4 and a 6 year old lion. I am just not happy with the extreme penalty that may be imposed in the instance of an honest mistake. I am starting a lion hunt in early September and I will endeavor to post some trail cam pics ( maybe with Bwanamich's help???) for the forum to see. I am also hunting Selous lion which are a whole different kettle of fish as so little research has been done down here.

perhaps also to add some perspective we could ask Bwanamich to post the new law details describing penalties for shooting a lion under
6 years old here in Tanzania. I am in camp and do not have the act to hand, but that would be interesting for all to look at, please Bwanamich.

I am also pleased to hear from him that we as a hunting community did not have anything to do with the ridiculous legislation imposed upon us here in TZ.

because our point as PRACTICING PH's (me, Ganyana, and Buzz) still remains that we cannot tell the difference between a 5 and a 6 year old lion under field conditions. We three and many others also actually rely on hunting big game professionally for our livelihoods, as opposed to the bulk of the pro 6 year old rule crowd. With all due respect to Bwanamich and co. (Tanzania and TZ wildlife is lucky to have their company) their owner's daily bread is not at stake here.

I also 100 percent agree with the mission to put a stop to baby lions being shot. But it has gone too far.

The beginning of this thread was to put the question to Zim PH's as to where they see lion conservation going. To that end I implore them, and the " scientific community" to stay away from encouraging such legislation and stick to strict quota setting as a way of conserving lions.

The NRA does not work with the Obama administration more closely every time there is another Columbine if you get my drift.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
ledvm,

One thing that wild lifers have learned is that if the public (PHs) don't buy into the rule or law, it probably won't work. I also think there are more than one way to achieve the goals most of us can agree on, that is to reduce or eliminate young lion take. Let's keep our options open to find a better and more acceptable solution than a strict six-year old rule.

465H&H

Walt,

I have stated at least a 1000 times on this forum that I, Aaron, nor anyone involved with the LCTF was for a "strict " 6 year old rule. In fact...we lobbied against it...but too late.

We do like the Niassa Reserve hunting rules and have favored a modified version.

But...the 6 year rule can work. TGTS has proven that beyaond a shadow of a doubt. They have had a self-imposed 6 year old rule for a while now and as stated...I have seen the results...they are outstanding...and...the PH's learned to deal with it. One of my best friends in the world is a hired PH of TGTS.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
ledvm,

One thing that wild lifers have learned is that if the public (PHs) don't buy into the rule or law, it probably won't work. I also think there are more than one way to achieve the goals most of us can agree on, that is to reduce or eliminate young lion take. Let's keep our options open to find a better and more acceptable solution than a strict six-year old rule.

465H&H

Walt,

I have stated at least a 1000 times on this forum that I, Aaron, nor anyone involved with the LCTF was for a "strict " 6 year old rule. In fact...we lobbied against it...but too late.

We do like the Niassa Reserve hunting rules and have favored a modified version.

But...the 6 year rule can work. TGTS has proven that beyaond a shadow of a doubt. They have had a self-imposed 6 year old rule for a while now and as stated...I have seen the results...they are outstanding...and...the PH's learned to deal with it. One of my best friends in the world is a hired PH of TGTS.

levdm,

I thought I was backing up what you said and not argueing with you.


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by lorefuma:
a question: how when the lion is on the ground the exact age is determined? also with istological metods (like the comunt of cementum laiers in the teeth) a 1-2 years error is normal

Production of cementum annuli are eratic in the lion. It is thought that the erratic nature of tooth maturation is due to the eratic nature of the lions diets with long periods of feast and famine to match the rainy and dry seasons.

However...the overall narrowing of the root canal is linear and distinct narrowing takes place in the 5 year old year making the groups of 4 or less or 6 and greater easy with a radiograph of the 2nd upper premolar where pulp cavity width can be measured precisely.

As the argument goes which I agree...the 5's can be difficult to distiguish precisely from 6's with the radiograph alone.

However...there are other skull criteria such as closure of growth plates and loss of the canine ridge to shed further light when trying to decide 5 vs: 6 and the sum of that data usually makes the dead analysis conclusive.

But...the 4 or less and 6 and greater are fairly easy to categorize. The 5's are the ones that require the most thorough analyis.

For these reasons...the Lion Conservation Task Force has always favored the Niassa Rules where some 5's being taken are with out penalty but reward is given for only taking 6 or greaters...which for biologic reasons that Bwanamich pointed out...should be the goal...at least in today's Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Bwanamich is correct - I am pretty confident of judging the difference between a 4 and a 6 year old lion. I am just not happy with the extreme penalty that may be imposed in the instance of an honest mistake. I am starting a lion hunt in early September and I will endeavor to post some trail cam pics ( maybe with Bwanamich's help???) for the forum to see. I am also hunting Selous lion which are a whole different kettle of fish as so little research has been done down here.

perhaps also to add some perspective we could ask Bwanamich to post the new law details describing penalties for shooting a lion under
6 years old here in Tanzania. I am in camp and do not have the act to hand, but that would be interesting for all to look at, please Bwanamich.

I am also pleased to hear from him that we as a hunting community did not have anything to do with the ridiculous legislation imposed upon us here in TZ.

because our point as PRACTICING PH's (me, Ganyana, and Buzz) still remains that we cannot tell the difference between a 5 and a 6 year old lion under field conditions. We three and many others also actually rely on hunting big game professionally for our livelihoods, as opposed to the bulk of the pro 6 year old rule crowd. With all due respect to Bwanamich and co. (Tanzania and TZ wildlife is lucky to have their company) their owner's daily bread is not at stake here.

I also 100 percent agree with the mission to put a stop to baby lions being shot. But it has gone too far.

The beginning of this thread was to put the question to Zim PH's as to where they see lion conservation going. To that end I implore them, and the " scientific community" to stay away from encouraging such legislation and stick to strict quota setting as a way of conserving lions.

The NRA does not work with the Obama administration more closely every time there is another Columbine if you get my drift.

John,

Actually you and I are almost in full agreement...with a couple of differences.

1) it WAS the hunting community that was responsible for the 6 year old rule...how...because the majority of lion shot prior to the law were 2-4's...that is a fact. And in Zim...hence the start of this discussion...it is still common place.

2) Lion are not owned like cattle...when you make your living off of a natural resource...expect comment from the world...as they are the world's commodity.

3) I still think it better to be able to sell the opportunity to hunt mature lions on a regular basis than the very limited quota that would have to be allotted on very strict and limited quota system.

In the end...I beleive if TZ went to a system similar to the Niassa (not to sound like a broken record) it would solve your concerns and be a better system for all.

quote:

As above a CAVEAT to the Zim boys,don't let the 6 year old LAW get anywhere near you.

quote:

I bet you already have a very few captive bred lion full of Ketamine being put out in front of baits in the Selous...For the uninitiated, given an appropriate dose of kitamine lion can sit up and look arround but not walk off...perfect. Put doped lion in front of bait pre dawn, sneak in with client an hour later and lion is sitting up and looking arround...and shoot it. Such activities are unfortunately increasingly common...and a prime mearchant of this has recently opened up in the selous...

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:


But I would love to watch those monkeys try to smuggle a live lion through the average 17 roadblocks as well as the gates into the reserve that we regularly negotiate. It is hard enough to get a PH and his vehicle through.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
or use a chair and a whip, while wearing a revolver. or best of all, get Seigfred or Roy to be your PH. 1 thing for sure, having used Ketamine off and on for 35 years in the OR, it will do just as described.