quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

originally posted by Brett Asam Barringer:
I believe slavery was ok at one point.

Sorry to get off topic Brett, but the above quote caught my eye. please expand...

A completely unrelated, but dramatic example of something that was once legal and I'm sure was talked about and fought over at the time. Illustrating the point that just because something is legal doesn't mean is shouldn't be questioned and/or changed.

Brett

Brad - I know I sound like a broken record here, but nothing Ganyana is saying - is outside of any of the "theories" we have discussed before?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....

I'm sure no one would be happier than Lane, Aaron, or BwanaMich to be proven wrong and shown that Zimbabwe's lion hunting is sustainable across the entire country. That said who actually knows?

Brett

PS. The guy has taken 8 lions distributed over 3 prides in the last 20 years.........not exactly a blistering pace.........certainly not 2-5 lions per year.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
But what if the "good guys" are the same guys shooting 2-4 year old lion because there aren't enough mature lions in their blocks to fill their quotas with 5 year old or older mature lions???

...
Brett

Are not most outfitters forced to buy the entire quota of thier areas from the game department, and any animals not shot the outfitter eats the cost of the tropphy fees?

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but as long as the game departments choose to socalize the costs of the trophy fees - the outfitters are put in a position where they have to shoot as much of thier quota as possible lest they have to eat the difference in costs.

How different would things be if the outfitter only had to pay the trophy fees as animals were shot just like a client?

.

I'm not sure, but this is the reason I started this discussion to talk about things like this. It is NOT to poke sticks at Dave, Buzz, or clients lion hunting in Zimbabwe.

Is lion hunting in Zimbabwe sustainable and if not what should be done???

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
But what if the "good guys" are the same guys shooting 2-4 year old lion because there aren't enough mature lions in their blocks to fill their quotas with 5 year old or older mature lions???

...
Brett

Are not most outfitters forced to buy the entire quota of thier areas from the game department, and any animals not shot the outfitter eats the cost of the tropphy fees?

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong but as long as the game departments choose to socalize the costs of the trophy fees - the outfitters are put in a position where they have to shoot as much of thier quota as possible lest they have to eat the difference in costs.

How different would things be if the outfitter only had to pay the trophy fees as animals were shot just like a client?

.

TwoZero - In most cases they are NOT required to pay for/buy ALL available quota, regardless of species.

Tanzania & Zambia most certainly are NOT required to do so, and as I recall Zim has a set quota, and an optional/additional quota that "can be" utilized by the outfitter if they so choose. But everyone does have at least some percentage of their annual quota, that they are required to pay for. I believe Tanzania outfitters are required to pay for 40% of their annual quota, regardless of use. I think Zambians are required to pay for 60% of their quota, but neither are required to pay for 100% of their available quota.

If/where it is required the argument you make has merit, no doubt! But at what point is animal conservation, and in the case of the lion (species longevity) more important than money? Obviously that's a personal choice to be made by each outfitter!

We do it every single year in eastern Colorado. We have no less than 6 rifle landowner vouchers for "whitetail deer" available, RIGHT NOW! Vouchers that would allow us to sell 6 additional rifle hunts for the fall of 2012, at $5,500 - $7,500 each. And I guarantee you, I could sell them all in less than 1 day. However, we have already reached the number of hunters we feel comfortable with for this year, a number that will allow us the best opportunity to give each hunter a reasonable chance at a 5.5 + yr old buck. We could easily take these 6 additional hunters, and we could easily show them decent bucks, but if we consistently did that each/every year, we would undoubtedly shoot too many older/mature bucks, thus eventually leaving only 3-4 yr old bucks, then you shoot them too (same thing happening in some areas with lions) and so on. Regardless of the number of bucks we shoot, we still pay the same annual LEASE FEES - so our expenses don't change, only our profit line. But we do so, because we are just as concerned about the management of the deer in our area, as we are with making money!!!!! Maybe why after 15 yrs on some of the very same ranches the quality/maturity of the bucks we take, has only increased? The herd sizes have increased, the buck/doe ratio increased and the size of the bucks we take, ALL have increased - because we have tried our best to practice good management. Its not perfect, but certainly none of the improvements would have happended without us at least TRYING to do it right.

Wildlife conservation is at least to some degree, a CHOICE! Some choose to think its important, and some don't!

Aaron,

One incident does not make anything true in every case but I was in Ngorongoro Crater with Joe Coogan who has seen a couple of lions in his life. Maybe more than most of the posters here. We encountered a male and female lion traveling together and the male had prominent spots. We got to watch them close up for quite some time and Joe (working for TGT at the time) called the lion at least six years old.

What I get out of all the clues indicating a lion's age in the field is that there are very few hard and fast rules and the average client HAS to depend on the PH's educated guess.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Aaron,

One incident does not make anything true in every case but I was in Ngorongoro Crater with Joe Coogan who has seen a couple of lions in his life. Maybe more than most of the posters here. We encountered a male and female lion traveling together and the male had prominent spots. We got to watch them close up for quite some time and Joe (working for TGT at the time) called the lion at least six years old.

What I get out of all the clues indicating a lion's age in the field is that there are very few hard and fast rules and the average client HAS to depend on the PH's educated guess.

Mark

In Biblical terms, the PH's educated guess will inevitably beget the peanut gallery's second guess, which will likewise beget anyone's guess. When Buzz and I hunt in a couple of weeks we are taking along a forensic dentist as well as carbon dating equipment. We hope to get the lion to submit to examination before extermination.

In Zambia doen't the PH or outfit buy the quota from ZAWA and if they don't fill it they go to bed with it?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
... I believe Tanzania outfitters are required to pay for 40% of their annual quota, regardless of use. I think Zambians are required to pay for 60% of their quota, but neither are required to pay for 100% of their available quota. ...

Although 40-60% is not 100, it is still a significant amount - and I'd be willing to bet that the quota that they are forced to buy includes the big five and other key trophy species. Which is where most of the big $$ are.

If I am wrong on that supposition, someone please correct me.

Being forced to buy even 40% of a quota which probably includes the high dollar animals, cannot help but distort what an operators practices would be.

.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Aaron,

One incident does not make anything true in every case but I was in Ngorongoro Crater with Joe Coogan who has seen a couple of lions in his life. Maybe more than most of the posters here. We encountered a male and female lion traveling together and the male had prominent spots. We got to watch them close up for quite some time and Joe (working for TGT at the time) called the lion at least six years old.

What I get out of all the clues indicating a lion's age in the field is that there are very few hard and fast rules and the average client HAS to depend on the PH's educated guess.

Mark

In Biblical terms, the PH's educated guess will inevitably beget the peanut gallery's second guess, which will likewise beget anyone's guess. When Buzz and I hunt in a couple of weeks we are taking along a forensic dentist as well as carbon dating equipment. We hope to get the lion to submit to examination before extermination.

Nitrous Oxide may be beneficial.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
... I believe Tanzania outfitters are required to pay for 40% of their annual quota, regardless of use. I think Zambians are required to pay for 60% of their quota, but neither are required to pay for 100% of their available quota. ...

Although 40-60% is not 100, it is still a significant amount - and I'd be willing to bet that the quota that they are forced to buy includes the big five and other key trophy species. Which is where most of the big $$ are.

If I am wrong on that supposition, someone please correct me.

Being forced to buy even 40% of a quota which probably includes the high dollar animals, cannot help but distort what an operators practices would be.

.

40% - 60% of the quota, is 40% - 60% of the quota - its not 40% - 60% of each species allocated! If you can reach 40% by shooting mostly PG and buff, etc, then so be it. Most can do so! Heck, we're forced to pay 100% of our annual leases of over $150,000.00 per year - regardless of if we shoot a single deer, or book a single hunter, or not!!! We do it, why can't they???

Regardless, its a choice as I said earlier - some are most concerned with conservation/species longevity, and some are most concerned with money. We give up $30k - $50k every single year on deer hunts we could easily sell! We do it for two reasons - firstly best wildlife management practices are most important. Secondly, we try to do our best to ensure that each/every client has a reasonable chance at a fully mature/trophy class buck. Neither the full leases we are required to pay, or the money we give up each year - distorts our operating practices??? Is there any difference, simply because they are on a different continent? Its not flawless, but we are at least trying!!!

Frostbit - Yes, but they are NOT required to buy it all at once/up-front, and they are NOT required to buy 100% of their allocated quota.

Mark - I said before that anything is possible, but I would never shoot a lion with spots - thinking its 6 > yrs old. I'm not sure how many Joe Coogan has actually taken a tooth from and sent for the newest x-ray aging, that has only been done over the last few years? Thousands of people have seen many thousands of deer, and they couldn't tell you 140" buck from 240" buck, or if its 3.5 yrs old or 6.5 yrs old! But I would be very interested in knowing if Bwanamich has photos of known age lions, or dead lions, that are 6 yrs plus, and still have noticable spots? Lord knows, he would have more FACTUAL data than anyone. Again, not saying its not possible, but I would never shoot one thinking its 6 or older.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....


Brad,
Exactly what theory was contradicted by Ganyana's info? Seems pretty consitent with what we know.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....


Hmmmm, let's see...... average of 1 lion every 3 years? Enough to sire at least 1 cub cycle to adulthood and independence. Nothing that hasn't been said before, you are right Lane.

"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

quote:

Brad - I know I sound like a broken record here, but nothing Ganyana is saying - is outside of any of the "theories" we have discussed before?

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

So we ARE allowed to shoot pride males out of prides with dependant cubs?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
So we ARE allowed to shoot pride males out of prides with dependant cubs?

I don't think he's endorsing it at all. I just think he's saying that even shooting pride holding males with dependant cubs 3 year intervals are enough to allow a few litters of cubs to make it to adulthood. Of course that's taking one lion every three years not 2 or 3 lions per year. I would imagine shooting 2-3 pride holding males per year in a concession would have the lion numbers in chaos over 5 or 10 years. I'm sure BwanaMich will comment.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....


Brad,
Exactly what theory was contradicted by Ganyana's info? Seems pretty consitent with what we know.

J. Lane Easter, DVM
DSC life member
DRSS

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....


Hmmmm, let's see...... average of 1 lion every 3 years? Enough to sire at least 1 cub cycle to adulthood and independence. Nothing that hasn't been said before, you are right Lane.

"...Them, they were Giants!"
J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa

quote:

Brad - I know I sound like a broken record here, but nothing Ganyana is saying - is outside of any of the "theories" we have discussed before?

Aaron Neilson
Global Hunting Resources

So we ARE allowed to shoot pride males out of prides with dependant cubs?

Brad - You are allowed to shoot whatever is legal, and whatever you choose to!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
So we ARE allowed to shoot pride males out of prides with dependant cubs?

I don't think he's endorsing it at all. I just think he's saying that even shooting pride holding males with dependant cubs 3 year intervals are enough to allow a few litters of cubs to make it to adulthood. Of course that's taking one lion every three years not 2 or 3 lions per year. I would imagine shooting 2-3 pride holding males per year in a concession would have the lion numbers in chaos over 5 or 10 years. I'm sure BwanaMich will comment.

Brett

Exactly!

Ganyana has a different recommended approach...which I can't argue with. He numerous times has mentioned (Ganyana...please correct me if I am misquoting) the idea of only allowing lion to be hunted every 3rd year. Then not worrying too much about what you shoot...hence his 8 lion in 20 years. I don't think you will see many on here jumping up and down to only sell a lion hunt every 3 years.

A couple of other key points he mentions in his post above are 1) that lion are declining and 2) it used to be common-place to have coalitions heading prides verses single-males.

This latter fact is very significant for pride survival. Prides headed by coalitions are just naturally more stable and have higher cub survivability due to the extra-male-power in both hunting of large game...adult buff...and in protection from hyena and other male lion.

In areas like Chewore where we hear people make statements that the buff calves are being over-predated...if in fact that is true...it maybe due to unstable prides with-out males or at least older big males forcing the females alone or with only the help of a young inexperienced male to prey entirely on smaller game. When killing the big mature buff...the females execute the hunt and get the game in the grips...but often times the big twice-as-powerful male help is needed for coup de gras.

quote:

Brad - You are allowed to shoot whatever is legal, and whatever you choose to!

tou-che', what are your thoughts on the above?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Brad - You are allowed to shoot whatever is legal, and whatever you choose to!

tou-che', what are your thoughts on the above?

Brad - In most circumstances I agree with Dr. Easter, you likely know that.

One thing I know for sure - I would encourage everyone to read the following HUNT REPORT, the "Lion" part in particular. http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/5561022871

Here's a family, obviously enjoying a wonderful safari - and they have a chance at what they all think is a "good" lion. One they could have easily killed, but choose not to because they see the obviously young/dependent cubs. Conservation - versus - success, hmmm!! It does appear some are willing/able to put wildlife conservation ahead of success, time or money. Obviously I say - good for them.

quote:

Brad - In most circumstances I agree with Dr. Easter, you likely know that.

Dr. Fester, looks like the mike has been passed to you, care to elaborate on your quote above?

In the mid 90's the lion population of the zambezi valley crashed. This was due to
a) Cat Flu - later identified by Dr Chris foggin as FIV
2) over hunting- principally by 'VIP safari's who took 42 (if I remember correctly) male lion out of Nyakasanga in 1994 and 1995 - this was on top of the 'normal' quota's of
Rifa- 2
Nyakasanga 3
Sapi 1
Chewore (10 - all three sections combined) and Dande 2

In addition there were a scateering of lioness on quota.

One notable feature was that the prides joined- by October '95 there was a single pride of 22 adult lioness with a single young male based in Nyakasanga. Across the boundary in the national park, the number of prides had fallen by c75% but total population had gone down only some 50%...ie at least 8 prides under observation had joined other prides in the absence of a male. In '96 I was able to suspend almost all lion hunting in the valley.

By 1999 when lion were again put on limited quota, the new world no 1 was taken out of Rifa. The prides had also fragmented again into groups of 4-8 females with a mature male heading the pride.

Lion bounce back very fast if you control the negative pressures on them.

One of the key's tto the decrease in Lion numbers has been the fall in Buffalo populations. Changing rainfall and mismanagement in the zambezi valley has resulted in a decline in the buff population of over 50% (see WWF and parks animal survey reports - both air and ground presented at COP 10). There was also a population explosion of Wild dog in the late 90's- and they ate their way up and down the valley removing many other potential prey species. As a result of the dogs activities we had to reduce the impala quota per Nyakasanga and Sapi bags from 30 per camp to 6. The operators in Chewore and rifa also had their impala quotas reduced to 30 (from 300) and Nyala taken off quota.

In my home area, the buffalo were erradicated by 1988 as part of a government drive to control F&M. This didn't really affect the prey levels on the ranch areas but did have a significant impact in the neigboring tribal area- after the vists of the 5th Brigade, there were almost no tribesmen and those that survived had no livestock, and the buff were gone...took 10 years for the human population to recover and the supply of goats, donkies and cattle build up to the point where the loss of an animal didn't produce an angly mob focused on exterminating the culprit.

And yes, I do personally favour putting lion on quota every three years and taking all mature males out that you can, then letting the prides have two full years to breed.

Ganyana, great information...

quote:

One of the key's tto the decrease in Lion numbers has been the fall in Buffalo populations. Changing rainfall and mismanagement in the zambezi valley has resulted in a decline in the buff population of over 50% (see WWF and parks animal survey reports - both air and ground presented at COP 10).

who has been responsible for the mismanagement of buff in the valley? what areas?

quote:

And yes, I do personally favour putting lion on quota every three years and taking all mature males out that you can, then letting the prides have two full years to breed.

Could you explain this management plan a little further, i.e. hypothetically what lions are eliminated, what lions take their place and what the results on the population are?

Gentlemen, I’m not a lion hunter, so anything I say here is certainly only opinion! However my guess (and opinion ) is, there is not one person in fifty who can reliably tell a 5 yr old lion from a 6 yr old lion in the field, especially in fading light! Again in my opinion this is simply smoke and mirrors to say they can! Certainly even I can tell the difference between a 2 yr old and a 6 yr old but once passed 5 most of the signs of age become very blurred.

………………………………………………………………………………………….Hold your fire till I can dig my fox hole!

................................. ....................

MacD37:

No Fox holes for you Mac - A very valid opinion.

There are going to be more clients going home empty handed because the blind, scarred and crippled one was not around and not many PHs are going to risk getting screwed by an X-Ray of a tooth - they are just going to play safe at someone else's expense I guess.

As an alternative, I foresee a sudden boom in exports from RSA to other African countries of lions that fall within the desired age group and furthermore, will put to rest the canned hunt criticism - "2 birds with one stone".

505- the 'missmanagement'? Dep National Parks and Wildlife Management. Artificially created water points - set up and then not maintained at critical periods - eg we killed c35,000 buffalo in Hwange in 1995 after the senior warden and the mechanic stole the deisel for the water pumps and then turned off the water away from the tourist areas...the buff couldn't make the walk to where water occured naturally. We made mistakes in the valley - not as gross but poor butning programmes, poor water management, increasing hunting by national parks staff for meat..and increasingly for sale to suppliment incomes. In my last year as an officer staff at makuti shot some 600 buff for ilicit sale. subsiquently the operator has been able to contain this but we had several years of effectively unconstrained poaching by our own staff- Also most game scouts used their AK's on full auto for buff hunting and more were wounded and lost than recovered.

The lion proposal is too long - it is in the Zimbabwe proposal and cat management plan presented at COP 10 of CITES in 1997- Basically it is maximum harvest effort at sufficiently long intervals to allow a complete breeding cycle within the prides. It was accepted for the zambezi valley in 1999, but politics overtook the implimentation. It would not have worked along the western border unless Botswana came to the party- and they went overboard with a complete ban (my personal gain and conservation and the lion's loss)

And Fujotupu is sadly correct. there are the odd canned lion now on offer in Zim and Moz and I have seen one canned hunt in Namibia...it will spread as people demand either a pre-consived notion of what a trophy lion is or easy hunting. a good friend offers first class lion hunting in West Africa- better sport than I can- but the lion are typically quite small bodies and have scraggly manes associated with dence thorn vegetation. Price for such a hunt is under half what a decent lion hunt in Zim costs, but they are hard to sell as the lions don't 'look' like MGM Lion. (and of course, many of the lion shot in Zim and Moz look just like the scragly maned lion of the cameroon forests, but we don't put them on our flyers )

In response to Dr. Easter, I was told that Zim Parks had approved additional lioness quota in Chewore North in 2011 and 2012. This quota was based on the idea that there was too much predation on the buffalo, and some of the big old girls were responsible for not only the breeding, but the killing also. My lioness mentioned in my previous post was from this additional quota. After she was "collected", (BTW near her day-old buff kill), Ian Gibson said that my lioness was exactly what Zim Parks had in mind. Gibbo also said that there were entirely too many predators about, and the buff were suffering for it. With over 30 years in the Valley, his opinion should count for something. Chewore North is a predator's dream: thick jess, lots of secluded springs with ambush cover, and relatively little in the way of open ground for visibility. I assume absolutely nothing in the way of expert status for myself, I can only repeat the opinions of knowlegeable PHs. In addition to Gibbo, Mwanja Camp this season has hosted notables like Ivan Carter, Owain Lewis (RIP), Len Taylor, Buzz Charlton, Mark Vallaro, and Andy Hunter. Any of those gentlemen has forgotten more about lion than I could learn in 3 lifetimes.
Cheers to all

quote:

In response to Dr. Easter, I was told that Zim Parks had approved additional lioness quota in Chewore North in 2011 and 2012. This quota was based on the idea that there was too much predation on the buffalo, and some of the big old girls were responsible for not only the breeding, but the killing also. My lioness mentioned in my previous post was from this additional quota. After she was "collected", (BTW near her day-old buff kill), Ian Gibson said that my lioness was exactly what Zim Parks had in mind.

Let me just say that there is varying opinion on the opinion that there is over predation on buffalo in that area by lion.

I am chipping in here against my better judgement but the honest, forthright and qualified posts by fujo, MacD , Buzz and Ganyana compel me to add my 10 cents.

I too have been a Full time PH in DG areas since 1985. I have hunted lion since then in most areas of Zim and Tanzania, including 12 consecutive years in Matetsi as well as many years in Ngamo Sikumi, Gwaai, Charara, Dande, Chewore, chete, Malapati and others. In Tanzania I have hunted for the last ten years in Selous, Rungwa, Southern Masailand, Moyowosi, Burigi, Southern Tz. Mlele and again others.

I have not counted the lions I have guided people to or been party to the taking thereof, but it is quite a few.

We are now subject(here in Tanzania) to the six year old LAW. I can honestly say that despite extensive experience as above, that I am not confident of betting my money and my licence against that of a tooth x-ray. I have always tried to shoot good, mature lions and agree that the egregious killing of baby males with spots etc. still showing should be punished.

But be careful what you wish for gentlemen. A well meaning campaign to self regulate has turned here in TZ into exactly what I predicted, we are now subject to ridiculous legislation and both ourselves and the paying hunters are the worse off for it.

With all due respect to the guys pushing the "6year old" plan. How many of you actually are subject to making the call and doing right by BOTH your client and the lions. As per Ganyana, tight and correct quota setting should be plenty. All the rest is playing into the hands of the Antis.

I applaud the fervor for conservation shown by Bwanamich, Lane and Brett AB. but let's find some middle ground here. We PH's are not capable of clearly differentiating between a 5 and a 6 year old lion, THAT IS A FACT.

quote:

I applaud the fervor for conservation shown by Bwanamich, Lane and Brett AB. but let's find some middle ground here. We PH's are not capable of clearly differentiating between a 5 and a 6 year old lion, THAT IS A FACT.

That is the reason that Aaron and I a long time ago when nobody wanted to concede any problem...were pushing for a system similar to the Niassa Reserve rules where a 5 taken periodically was not of big concern. Now...I am afraid the 6 or nothing in Tanzania will be there to stay.

People like George Hartley and Bwanamich say that with practice the 6 year old rule will get easy for any PH willing to learn. There will also be more 6 & > to choose from with time also making it easier.

For countries like Zambia, Zimbabwe, and Namibia...the Lion Conservation Task Force has always recommended the Niassa Reserve rules as the gold standard.

John:

+1

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
I am chipping in here against my better judgement but the honest, forthright and qualified posts by fujo, MacD , Buzz and Ganyana compel me to add my 10 cents.

I too have been a Full time PH in DG areas since 1985. I have hunted lion since then in most areas of Zim and Tanzania, including 12 consecutive years in Matetsi as well as many years in Ngamo Sikumi, Gwaai, Charara, Dande, Chewore, chete, Malapati and others. In Tanzania I have hunted for the last ten years in Selous, Rungwa, Southern Masailand, Moyowosi, Burigi, Southern Tz. Mlele and again others.

I have not counted the lions I have guided people to or been party to the taking thereof, but it is quite a few.

We are now subject(here in Tanzania) to the six year old LAW. I can honestly say that despite extensive experience as above, that I am not confident of betting my money and my licence against that of a tooth x-ray. I have always tried to shoot good, mature lions and agree that the egregious killing of baby males with spots etc. still showing should be punished.

But be careful what you wish for gentlemen. A well meaning campaign to self regulate has turned here in TZ into exactly what I predicted, we are now subject to ridiculous legislation and both ourselves and the paying hunters are the worse off for it.

With all due respect to the guys pushing the "6year old" plan. How many of you actually are subject to making the call and doing right by BOTH your client and the lions. As per Ganyana, tight and correct quota setting should be plenty. All the rest is playing into the hands of the Antis.

I applaud the fervor for conservation shown by Bwanamich, Lane and Brett AB. but let's find some middle ground here. We PH's are not capable of clearly differentiating between a 5 and a 6 year old lion, THAT IS A FACT.

Thank you for your very experienced and informed input! I don't think anyone would like to see a 6 year rule implemented like in Tanzania. Tighter/more realistic quotas or a Niassa type system would seem appropriate. That said I'm not sure how someone can make that decision until you know the extent of the problem. John would you agree that submitting samples to age all harvested lions country wide would be a good first step? What are your thoughts on this?

Brett

Absolutely I believe that submitting all samples possible, sharing information etc. should be a given. I am actually enjoying filling out the new forms re. Lion hunting in TZ at the moment as they (hopefully) allow the PH some input.

No question we all should have started doing this a long time ago. All knowledge is good, as per Ganyana's earlier post about management mistakes in what was a well run system in Zim National Parks.

BUT we should not become the dupes of the anti hunters. In my opinion the "6 year old" law is opening ourselves up to regulation beyond either control or indeed reason. Buzz's earlier posts also highlight a reality that certain operators hide behind such "legislation" in order to sell more hunts for less lions.

here in Tanzania reputable operators are in a real quandary as to how to "sell" a lion hunt that in reality has a very low chance of success, at the most expensive day rates that African hunting safaris attract. That is not right and again I reiterate, tight quotas can and will,suffice to preserve Lion hunting.

I believe that there is merit in the THEORY that we will all learn to judge lions better, I for one have been looking for nose pigmentation for some years now. however, with all due respect to Bwanamich, George Hartley ( who is a contemporary of mine at apprentice level) and Aaron N. it is we at the sharp end who have to deal with the realities of legislation unintentionally introduced by our well meaning selves!

Thank you all for receiving my input so kindly, I seldom post as I am wary of the bad side of internet forums but i hope that I can add some value to this important topic.

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
Absolutely I believe that submitting all samples possible, sharing information etc. should be a given. I am actually enjoying filling out the new forms re. Lion hunting in TZ at the moment as they (hopefully) allow the PH some input.

No question we all should have started doing this a long time ago. All knowledge is good, as per Ganyana's earlier post about management mistakes in what was a well run system in Zim National Parks.

BUT we should not become the dupes of the anti hunters. In my opinion the "6 year old" law is opening ourselves up to regulation beyond either control or indeed reason. Buzz's earlier posts also highlight a reality that certain operators hide behind such "legislation" in order to sell more hunts for less lions.

here in Tanzania reputable operators are in a real quandary as to how to "sell" a lion hunt that in reality has a very low chance of success, at the most expensive day rates that African hunting safaris attract. That is not right and again I reiterate, tight quotas can and will,suffice to preserve Lion hunting.

I believe that there is merit in the THEORY that we will all learn to judge lions better, I for one have been looking for nose pigmentation for some years now. however, with all due respect to Bwanamich, George Hartley ( who is a contemporary of mine at apprentice level) and Aaron N. it is we at the sharp end who have to deal with the realities of legislation unintentionally introduced by our well meaning selves!

Thank you all for receiving my input so kindly, I seldom post as I am wary of the bad side of internet forums but i hope that I can add some value to this important topic.

John,

I think as an operator...it would be much better to have the opportunity to sell the chance to hunt for a mature lion on a regular basis than to only be able to sell an extremenly limited quantity of hunts. And...with time...there will be A LOT more 6 and > to choose from...where one is not faced with making 5 vs. 6 call. With time...you will be able to move on from these borderline lion quickly and know the chances are decent of finding a non-borderline animal. We (LCTF) have already broached the subject of potentially changing the TZ law and I am afraid it will be a very uphill battle...if not impossible.

George Hartley is a good friend of mine as well. He along with Bwanamich make a STRONG case that it (6 year old rule) does work and can be dealt with by PH's.

Lane..It can work IF you have a clean cut identifying feature- colour of the nose seems to be one that works in Tanzania- I have never hunted lion there.

In Cameroon, central moz and Zimbabwe, that nose colour doesn't hold. I have been trying to Get Paula white access to a group of known age lion of both wild and captive bred origin - The one male ex matetsi has been in captivity for 10 years now (and was mature when captured). He is massive and has a pink nose. As related above, I had a mature but very pale skined lion last year where the baby spots were still quite visible (we didn't actually SEE that until he was down). I subsiquently got a look at the other two males in the pride - who are still there and on both the 'baby spots' are visible - though now they are both close to 7 years of age.

Ganyana,

do you have pics of these two 7 year old?

Throughout these discussions, we keep pointing out and focusing on "exceptions" to the rules eg noses aren't always pink, mane isn't always full, teeth aren't always worn down, spots are sometimes visible, etc, etc. Out of the combined total of aging clues, there is always some (usually in the minority) that do not conform with the age estimation. It isn't always that you can tick every signle age criteria on a 6 year old lion. So determining whether to shoot or not to shoot in those uncertain cases where all the age criterias aren't obviously pointing to a 6 or older lion is a challenge. In such cases, it has been suggested that such a lion should have the benefit of doubt and left to live! As hard as it can be, to both PH and client, it is probably the right thing to do. IMHO, no decision on whether to take a lion should be taken "at last light" or "after a 20 sec glimpse in poor light condition", etc.

The TZ rule is being reviewed (sooner than we think) to relax it a little. However, it needed to be done the way it happened for obvious reasons - the ESA listing and CITES listing being two such reasons.

Pics only of the one we took. But at Antelope park in Gweru there are a whole bunch of lion that do not conform. Next time I am past there I need to go in and take pictures of the live lion. As I say, It would be nice to get somebody like Paula White to do a proper analysis on known age lion from Zimbabwe.

I just know that I sure as hell cannot tell until there is a body and I look in it's mouth - and even then, I can guage , Young, mature, old. Best guide is when they are with a pride- then I know they must be at least 5...

Bwanamich took the words right out of my mouth. Putting live lion into age categories requires looking at the whole picture. It becomes an averaging game where all of the pieces don't always match...much like everything else in veterinary medicine. When one focuses too much on "one symptom" often times one misses the diagnosis...one must look at everything. Nose color percentage is just one clue and one that is not all that high on my list of priority...but a clue non the less.

Paula (who is also a friend) will tell you the exact same thing...as we discuss this often when dissect pictures. One must use all the clues and not focus on one exception. This strategy is paramount in the diagnosis of most things biologic.

Once dead...the growth plates (sutures) in the skull and teeth of course tell the true tale. That is why important to get that final analysis to gauge your on-the-paw accuracy. Then as the old saying goes...practice makes perfect.

@Lane
We have here three experiend professional hunters (Ganyana, JTHunt, Buzz) who say it's impossible to tell the exact age of a lion in the field.
I've talked to two (also experiend) PH's in zambia who told me the same thing.

No offence, but it's hard to believe that you can do it while the guys who spend their time hunting lion can't do it.

I speak as a pure novice when it comes to lion management but with a pretty diverse background in general wildlife management. It appears to me that the strict six-year old rule while a lofty goal is not very practical for field use. It puts too much of a decision on the PH and client. Mainly, because the aging charecteristics vary too much over the lions range and there is too much variability among individual lion.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
@Lane
We have here three experiend professional hunters (Ganyana, JTHunt, Buzz) who say it's impossible to tell the exact age of a lion in the field.
I've talked to two (also experiend) PH's in zambia who told me the same thing.

No offence, but it's hard to believe that you can do it while the guys who spend their time hunting lion can't do it.

And I replied and gave you the name of 2 which manage A LOT of Tz (Bwanamich and George Hartley) that have been practicing the science for years now and have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it can work! Just go back and look at the lion reports on this forum about blocks that Adam Clements got that had been under their management for the last 10 years...the proof is in the pudding.

Show me someone who says it can't work...and I'll show you someone who has put little effort into trying it...and yes that is a challenge to anyone to speak contraire. Do you think that I woke up one day and decided I could repair a broken bone and voila...I was an expert??? NO...it took years of study, hard work, and practice. It reqires an effort and there is a learning curve but it CAN work and had has been proven to be effective.

quote:

No offence, but it's hard to believe that you can do it while the guys who spend their time hunting lion can't do it.

Careful Caracal, Lane may have zero experience lion hunting and zero experience managing lions (or any other species on the african continent), but he did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Caracal, as Jim Croce would say, you don't tug on Superman's cape.

There may be one person at MIT that can look at multiple quadratic equations and solve them in his head too, that does not mean that everyone else that does math can do the same, even if they try. Maybe the folks you identified are lion savants?