How about this? I've been discussing lion hunting recently with some non AR members and an idea has floated to the top. I'm sure it is not a novel idea but maybe it could work.

What if instead of selling 5-6 lion hunts in a specific area at a super premium price that all the DG safaris that includes at least a leopard would allow a lion until the quota was shot. These could be offered at a somewhat reduced rate but if a lion was taken the trophy fee would be very expensive? I know this sounds like something that is already up in running with some safari operators but these are minus the reduced rate. The point is you don't pay for a lion hunt if you don't kill one. If you do you pay a premium.

So how does that benefit the lions? I think it would make the clients less likely to be happy with a less than fully mature lion and perhaps take some pressure off the PH to deliver. I can assure you my clients would be more cautious about pulling the trigger on a $40,000 trophy fee than a $7500 one.

I don't have a specific plan with exact numbers but I think this might have merit.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
How about this? I've been discussing lion hunting recently with some non AR members and an idea has floated to the top. I'm sure it is not a novel idea but maybe it could work.

What if instead of selling 5-6 lion hunts in a specific area at a super premium price that all the DG safaris that includes at least a leopard would allow a lion until the quota was shot. These could be offered at a somewhat reduced rate but if a lion was taken the trophy fee would be very expensive? I know this sounds like something that is already up in running with some safari operators but these are minus the reduced rate. The point is you don't pay for a lion hunt if you don't kill one. If you do you pay a premium.

So how does that benefit the lions? I think it would make the clients less likely to be happy with a less than fully mature lion and perhaps take some pressure off the PH to deliver. I can assure you my clients would be more cautious about pulling the trigger on a $40,000 trophy fee than a $7500 one.

I don't have a specific plan with exact numbers but I think this might have merit.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Andrew's tiered day rate system is essentially the same thing as you are saying.

When I pulled the trigger I ended up with a $27,000 trophy fee. It was just worded differently.

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

Your right but Andrew has one lion as opposed to some of these outfits that have several areas, many lions on quota and charge a full premium price regardless of whether you hunt lion or not.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Buzz, if you really want to know the age of the lion in question - send the 2nd pre-molar to me, or bring to DSC. I can give it to Dr. White, it can be x-rayed and evaluated for age. In fact, if you send me up close pics of the skull/teeth - multiple angles, I am sure she can give you a good estimate via pics. They just did that with one sent in by "Doctari". The scientists who KNOW how to age them based on the visual criteria, all aged this lion at the same. There was no huge descrepency.

As offered to Buzz by me before in regards to another of his lions...I drive from my office to DSC convention almost everyday. If they bring the 2nd upper premolar in question...I will x-ray it digitally, render my own opinion then forward to Drs. White and Packer for their opinions. I have found us to be very consistent as we were with the lion Aaron mentions for "Doctari".

Caracal,
I am an equine orthopedic surgeon with specialty in western performance horses. A cheap one is $25K an expensive one is $500K .

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Bwanamich, I think someone like Buzz or many of the other great ph's would be better at saying what should be done. No doubt there is a basketful of things in each area that needs to be considered.

Bob,
You might want to research who Bwanamich is. Probably has as much experience on managing lion in hunting blocks as anyone alive today.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Anybody that wants to comment,

So what can the lion hunting novice do in a country that does not have a strict 6 year old rule other than discuss with his PH that he wants a lion of minimum 5/6 years and then leave it to the PH's judgement? My limited experience with lions is that they often are seen in very low light and the mane and body size are the only real distinguishable features. If the PH says shoot who would not shoot? How much more responsible can an inexperienced client hunter be?

Mark

They should educate themselves and not be so naive to think a PH would not pull the wool over a hunters eyes...hence the fact so many "bush-cats" are shot .

Hunters have a responsibility to at least be knowledgeable...at least IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
If you really want to do something for lions you need to preach human population control, remove all chemicals that can be used as poison, remove the millions of snares afield but most imporantly keep interest in lions thru hunting as that is where the big money comes to support the game departments and the lion.

....add to that list the recent concern for the sudden high demand for Lion bones as a substitution for those of the Tiger (Tanzania in particular).

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Bob - With all due respect, there's certainly PH's/outfitters in Africa (unlike Buzz) that are NOT trying their best to be responsible! Perhaps unlike Brett, I have seen it with my own two eyes. Its a problem that has gotten better in recent years, but still exists far too often.

Aaron,
wouldn't it be easier to fight just against these guys instead of lumping all together and punish everyone with rules that make hunting difficult and less interesting

Caracal: Yes, probably so - but not sure how you could go about that? It would be hard to have different rules for different people.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Aaron, who are these ph's that are not being responsible? I think their names should be published.

Bob - To be frank, my list would be rather lengthy! Secondly, IMO the reform must start from the TOP. Meaning, the outfitter/company needs to implement self-imposed rules/regs against the shooting of young/immature lions. If the "leader" isn't practicing good conservation, why should his employees be expected to? Some African companies do it already, and we do it too here in Colorado - where we lease roughly 250,000 acres for whitetail/mule deer. It can easily be done, its simply a common belief in good wildlife conservation.

Fact is though, I learned here last year - calling out individuals is not the best way for me to go. I would prefer to continue to bring emphasis to older/mature lions, as the only appropriate trophies to be taken.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Keeler:
Bwanamich, I think someone like Buzz or many of the other great ph's would be better at saying what should be done. No doubt there is a basketful of things in each area that needs to be considered.

Bob,
You might want to research who Bwanamich is. Probably has as much experience on managing lion in hunting blocks as anyone alive today.

Bob - That too is true! Bwanamich probably knows more about it, and has more experience with it, than most all of us combined. Certainly he's been doing it longer than anyone I can think of, not only in Tanzania - but the whole of Africa.

Guys,
I'm always open to new suggestions

No system is perfect at all times.....

Mark,

The "super trophy fee" charged when a lion is shot works if the PH/Outfitter is 100% unscrupulous and conservation minded. Otherwise, he will convince his client that the 4 yo they are seeing is at least 6 so that they can cash in. The allure of the mighty $$$ can be quite irresistable.

For us unilluminated: who is the real person behind the nick "bwananich"?

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
For us unilluminated: who is the real person behind the nick "bwananich"?

Far be it from me to out anyone's identity publicly. That is a personal thing.

But...suffice it to say...NOBODY that knows him, friend or foe, will come on here and deny that he is among the most, if not the most, experienced person in Africa in regards to lion, lion hunting, and especially lion area management.

To me this is relatively simple. Unless and until someone else starts paying for my hunts then what I choose to do or not do on my hunt is my business provided it comports with the game laws. If someone objects they can buy all the quota and set all the rules. I am not suggesting that all hunters should not practice sound game management but what someone decides to do with their money, on their hunt, listening to their PH and in compliance with all applicable game laws, is their business.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To me this is relatively simple. Unless and until someone else starts paying for my hunts then what I choose to do or not do on my hunt is my business provided it comports with the game laws. If someone objects they can buy all the quota and set all the rules. I am not suggesting that all hunters should not practice sound game management but what someone decides to do with their money, on their hunt, listening to their PH and in compliance with all applicable game laws, is their business.

I could not agree with you more. I am fairly libertarian as well.

Everybody gets up everyday and has to make decisions that are either right or wrong...but either way are in compliance with the law.

Like my Dad always says: "In life...it is what you do when nobody is looking that defines the man."

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To me this is relatively simple. Unless and until someone else starts paying for my hunts then what I choose to do or not do on my hunt is my business provided it comports with the game laws. If someone objects they can buy all the quota and set all the rules. I am not suggesting that all hunters should not practice sound game management but what someone decides to do with their money, on their hunt, listening to their PH and in compliance with all applicable game laws, is their business.

Mike - No doubt a valid point! Frankly, there's nothing I hate worse than others trying to tell me what to do, or how to do it.

The only problem is, a loose attitude towards the taking of immature lions is what has led to the law in Tanzania, the points system in Moz, and likely will lead eventually to similar implements in Zim, Zambia, etc. Not to mention, it could lead to much worse (CITES uplisting/banned importation into the U.S.) if more outfitters/PH's/clients continue to think only of themselves, or success of their hunt.

Everyone is certainly free to do as they wish, especially if its legal. I would simply encourage each potential lion hunter/Ph/outfitter to consider this however; Are you willing to be considered part of the solution, or content with being part of the problem???

Aaron:

"" loose attitude towards the taking of immature lions is what has led to the law in Tanzania""

Almost implying that everybody else has been taking specimen that are 5+ years (though clearly not so).

The Tanzanian Authorities have now implemented some drastic penalties that will make some PHs think long and hard before they utter the golden word but will everyone else follow this example or will Tanzania, the only country in Africa with the highest population of Lions be the scapegoat of this project?

How USF&W will handle imports of Lion is a question mark if some countries apply the rule and others not - what would you think?

Judging by tones of the general comments being aired it seems to be headed that way.

Come 2013 its going to be tougher still when the TZ trophy fee for Lion doubles.

The RSA Lion breeders must be rubbing their hands.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Aaron:

"" loose attitude towards the taking of immature lions is what has led to the law in Tanzania""

Almost implying that everybody else has been taking specimen that are 5+ years (though clearly not so).

The Tanzanian Authorities have now implemented some drastic penalties that will make some PHs think long and hard before they utter the golden word but will everyone else follow this example or will Tanzania, the only country in Africa with the highest population of Lions be the scapegoat of this project?

How USF&W will handle imports of Lion is a question mark if some countries apply the rule and others not - what would you think?

Judging by tones of the general comments being aired it seems to be headed that way.

Come 2013 its going to be tougher still when the TZ trophy fee for Lion doubles.

The RSA Lion breeders must be rubbing their hands.

Fujo - The loose attitude is/was not specific to TZ, that's for sure. Yes, I'm fully aware of the penalties faced by TZ - PH's. I start guiding a lion hunt in Lukwati - next Friday, making the call will be difficult.

Not sure what USFWS will/could do, but I would expect if/when anything is done, it will be ONE FOR ALL - not different rules for different countries. But, that's just a guess.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:
Are you willing to be considered part of the solution, or content with being part of the problem???

. . . depends on what day of the hunt we are on.

As Mickey Gilley once said, "all the girls all look prettier at closing time."

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:
Are you willing to be considered part of the solution, or content with being part of the problem???

. . . depends on what day of the hunt we are on.

As Mickey Gilley once said, "all the girls all look prettier at closing time."

Good lord! That is pretty funny Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To me this is relatively simple. Unless and until someone else starts paying for my hunts then what I choose to do or not do on my hunt is my business provided it comports with the game laws. If someone objects they can buy all the quota and set all the rules. I am not suggesting that all hunters should not practice sound game management but what someone decides to do with their money, on their hunt, listening to their PH and in compliance with all applicable game laws, is their business.

Well said. If you want me to hunt lion with you, then offer me a super trophy lion hunt at a $500 to $1000 daily rate. I will decide if the lion is a shooter and pull the trigger.

If there is one thing to be gleaned from all this "point-counterpoint" it is that we need to avoid a "one size fits all" approach. What is proper for one area is not necessarily right for another. I was lucky enough to take a bruiser of an old lioness with Ian Gibson in Chewore North last month. There were lioness on quota there because the lion are hammering the buff to pieces--especially the young calves. Saw a herd of 60 buff in Mana Pools, with only a half dozen calves. Did anyone read the interview with John Jackson of Conservation Force in the last Sports Afield? JJ claims that lion hunting provides 25% of the funds that keep safari hunting alive Africa-wide. The antis know this well, and banning or severely restricting lion hunting is the tip of the spear they are using against us. Yes, we need to apply wise conservation practices, but we need to tenaciously defend wise usage. Men like Ian, Buzz, and many other dedicated pros need to be listened to, not lectured to.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
If there is one thing to be gleaned from all this "point-counterpoint" it is that we need to avoid a "one size fits all" approach. What is proper for one area is not necessarily right for another. I was lucky enough to take a bruiser of an old lioness with Ian Gibson in Chewore North last month. There were lioness on quota there because the lion are hammering the buff to pieces--especially the young calves. Saw a herd of 60 buff in Mana Pools, with only a half dozen calves. Did anyone read the interview with John Jackson of Conservation Force in the last Sports Afield? JJ claims that lion hunting provides 25% of the funds that keep safari hunting alive Africa-wide. The antis know this well, and banning or severely restricting lion hunting is the tip of the spear they are using against us. Yes, we need to apply wise conservation practices, but we need to tenaciously defend wise usage. Men like Ian, Buzz, and many other dedicated pros need to be listened to, not lectured to.

I have never been great at Aging lion in the field. I listen to what the san trackers say about the animal on the approach, tell the client what I think we have and it is his choice (and 40k trophy fee) IF he pulls the trigger. On a walk and stalk hunt their is seldom much time for trophy judgement. I have learned to trust the trackers description of what we will bump into and leave it at that.

I have always gone for the low daily rate and high trophy fee model in the belief that it is best for the lion. The san community takes 25K if the client shoots a 'mature' male.

Last year I took two males that could not have been more different. One was thin, scared, walked with a limp and was on his own. He had a fully black nose and a raged but flowing mane that ran down onto his front legs. Tooth analysis aged him at 5. According to the trackers he had tried to take over a pride and didn't suceed.

The other was very pale, pink nose and 'baby spots' still showing. Large body and good mane. No scars on him. He was one of three brothers that took over the xixi pride two years ago. Tooth anylsis put him at 6.

Since 1992 I my clients have taken 7 males out of the same (xixi) pride. During that time the pride has grown and two groups of females have slit off. One splinter group of 4 females moved off towards the makadikadi pans and I have never seen them again. The other splinter group (3 females) have teemed up with a young male and I last saw them in december- apparently they have moved north towards Matin Peters new area.

Between 1936 and 2007 my father shot 482 lion on our place of which at least 200 were males (he didn't always note sex in the tally book). The lion population has certainly declined - my Grandfather shot more than my father and my uncle took 'about 500' in the 30's and 40's alone. But that said- the population is still too healthy for anybody to have much fun as a cattle farmer!

Tim:

Where the hunting of lionesses is permitted, you need not worry too much about age as they don't fall within the 6 year old privilege (yet).

The furor has come about with regards to the Lion King - maybe the film got the antis all worked up as well; but as you correctly state, once they get a ban on lion hunting in place, it will include the females as well.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
To me this is relatively simple. Unless and until someone else starts paying for my hunts then what I choose to do or not do on my hunt is my business provided it comports with the game laws. If someone objects they can buy all the quota and set all the rules. I am not suggesting that all hunters should not practice sound game management but what someone decides to do with their money, on their hunt, listening to their PH and in compliance with all applicable game laws, is their business.

There's nothing wrong with talking about laws that need changed or conservation policies that need changed. I believe slavery was ok at one point. I'm also reasonably certain you could shoot several hundred bison out of a herd in one sitting and still be on the "right side of the law". Times change and sometimes for the better.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
If there is one thing to be gleaned from all this "point-counterpoint" it is that we need to avoid a "one size fits all" approach. What is proper for one area is not necessarily right for another. I was lucky enough to take a bruiser of an old lioness with Ian Gibson in Chewore North last month. There were lioness on quota there because the lion are hammering the buff to pieces--especially the young calves. Saw a herd of 60 buff in Mana Pools, with only a half dozen calves. Did anyone read the interview with John Jackson of Conservation Force in the last Sports Afield? JJ claims that lion hunting provides 25% of the funds that keep safari hunting alive Africa-wide. The antis know this well, and banning or severely restricting lion hunting is the tip of the spear they are using against us. Yes, we need to apply wise conservation practices, but we need to tenaciously defend wise usage. Men like Ian, Buzz, and many other dedicated pros need to be listened to, not lectured to.

But what if the "good guys" are the same guys shooting 2-4 year old lion because there aren't enough mature lions in their blocks to fill their quotas with 5 year old or older mature lions???

I think Tanzania is a great example of ham fisted implementation of lion conservation. I think Aaron's prediction that Zim will see a similar thing if things don't change is reasonable. If operators start submitting samples from all animals we can see if there's a problem and if so how bad it is. Right now who really knows? I doubt even Buzz or Ian Gibson could speak intelligently about ALL the lions coming out of other blocks around Zimbabwe.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
For us unilluminated: who is the real person behind the nick "bwananich"?

Far be it from me to out anyone's identity publicly. That is a personal thing.

But...suffice it to say...NOBODY that knows him, friend or foe, will come on here and deny that he is among the most, if not the most, experienced person in Africa in regards to lion, lion hunting, and especially lion area management.

Lane,
I really don't consider myself to be the expert on lion conservation or hunting in Africa. My background is not science nor research. I have been involved in many a policy discussion and planning of, what we believe to be, a fairly sustainable way of hutning lion in our areas in Tz for a good number of years. As everyone admits, there are numerous factors to consider before taking a lion. The ones we adopt, though not perfect at all, are suited to our situation. The "Kizigo experiment" - as I like to call it - in our former blocks indicate it does produce some results.

quote:

The "Kizigo experiment"

A great effort which I fear will have gone to waste.

Why ?

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Why ?

Because the block changed hands (due to the new indigenization laws) and the new stewards...well should I say...don't subscribe to the same conservation philosophy...to put it politely but please do read between the lines (or lions).

quote:

originally posted by Ganyana:
Since 1992 I my clients have taken 7 males out of the same (xixi) pride. During that time the pride has grown and two groups of females have slit off. One splinter group of 4 females moved off towards the makadikadi pans and I have never seen them again. The other splinter group (3 females) have teemed up with a young male and I last saw them in december- apparently they have moved north towards Matin Peters new area.

So you are saying that you have seen sexually mature males taken out of an active pride and the pride continued growing?

quote:

originally posted by Brett Asam Barringer:
I believe slavery was ok at one point.

Sorry to get off topic Brett, but the above quote caught my eye. please expand...

.505 - yes. There are three prides who's teritories overlap on my place- And the one pride based on a small range of hills 10km away has been a source of constant trouble for as long as I can remember. The pride was down to 3 females and a male when I convinced my father to lay off the strychnine and shoot on sight policy reguarding lion and let me bring in clients to hunt them - That pride has slowly expanded over the last 20 years depite the hunting.

The pride to the north has also grown and split at least once.

The pride occupying the southern part of the range has not fared well - Until the farm invasions they were regularly hunted on both sides of the border. Since the 2005 the pride has grown to 9 adults (current) from 6. (and a client took a male out of the pride two years ago).

We have a fair number of transient males comming through, and used to have a fair number of old males that had been kicked out of a pride and took to raiding goats in the tribal area, and making forays southwards for cattle. With the total absence of cattle now, and the lion hunting ban in Botswana we see far fewer transient males- although there are fairly regular reports from the tribal area still.

The advantage of hunting in an area of soft sandy soil and using san trackers is that you 'know' where the lions are from, the composition of the pride etc. The san seem to 'know' all the lion resident in their area and almost all of the transient males passing through.

As I stated, I have shot 7 males (and 1 female) out of the main pride in 20 seasons. A couple of the incomming males have killed the young cubs, but not always. When the pride was taken over by three 'brother' two years ago, they didn't kill any of the cubs that I could tell and I saw the pride fairly often - including chasing them off a cow in the tribal area (I had a client coming and didn't want to shoot one for free).

The main effect of the hunting ban in Botswana is that all three prides have more than one resident male now. The xixi pride had three males (now 2). The southern pride had two (now 1) and the northern pride currently has 2 males. In the past I have seldom seen a pride in our area with more than a single male although my father notes that prides with multiple males were common in the 40's.

Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Last year I took two males that could not have been more different. One was thin, scared, walked with a limp and was on his own. He had a fully black nose and a raged but flowing mane that ran down onto his front legs. Tooth analysis aged him at 5. According to the trackers he had tried to take over a pride and didn't suceed.

The other was very pale, pink nose and 'baby spots' still showing. Large body and good mane. No scars on him. He was one of three brothers that took over the xixi pride two years ago. Tooth anylsis put him at 6.

Since 1992 I my clients have taken 7 males out of the same (xixi) pride. During that time the pride has grown and two groups of females have slit off. One splinter group of 4 females moved off towards the makadikadi pans and I have never seen them again. The other splinter group (3 females) have teemed up with a young male and I last saw them in december- apparently they have moved north towards Matin Peters new area.

Ganyana - I would be shocked/surprised to know that a lion of 6 yrs of age, still has spots. Not saying I do not believe you, but I would have never guessed that to be likely. But, just like a lion's mane - they certainly can all be different.

Can you tell us where/who is aging these teeth? I am not aware of anyone in Zim who has the latest equipment, that is used to do it correctly - but again, I could be way off on that one! Do you have pics of the skull/teeth, or any of the x-ray photos used to age the teeth?

It appears you are doing your best to be selective, and as you mention - new lions have moved in from Bots over the years as well. It never hurts to have an adjacent area that can provide "new" lions from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....

Brad,
Exactly what theory was contradicted by Ganyana's info? Seems pretty consitent with what we know.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Great information Ganyana, perhaps some our resident experts could chime in as to why this contradicts their "theories"....

Hmmmm, let's see...... average of 1 lion every 3 years? Enough to sire at least 1 cub cycle to adulthood and independence. Nothing that hasn't been said before, you are right Lane.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
But what if the "good guys" are the same guys shooting 2-4 year old lion because there aren't enough mature lions in their blocks to fill their quotas with 5 year old or older mature lions???

...
Brett

Are not most outfitters forced to buy the entire quota of thier areas from the game department, and any animals not shot - the outfitter eats the cost of the tropphy fees?

Maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but as long as the game departments choose to socalize the costs of the trophy fees - the outfitters are put in a position where they have to shoot as much of thier quota as possible otherwise they have to eat the difference in costs.

How different would things be if the outfitter made thier money only throughby thier daily rates, and trophy fees went straight to the game department as animals were shot??

.