Cal,
with all respect,Mark let it go because it is the only prudent thing for him to do,his position on hunting as Saeed stated is disgusting & repugnant,it would never stand upto public debate,he uses this site for his personal gain,he could very easily avoid all this by not doing so.

I have met Mr. Sullivan and had lunch and talked at length about 5-6 years ago. He was very pleasant to talk to and it was just a chance meeting as we sat at the same table to have lunch.
If you are the type of person who can develop first impressions there is definatly something "off" about him, he had a very odd look in his eyes when we spoke. I have seen the same look in crazy and very desperate people I have met.
That being said, I would not book a hunt with him and dont condone most of his actions and methods. I do however accept his mentality, as I truly beleive that he means what he says when he states he wants to give the animal equal opportunity to decide its (or his) fate. If I am reading the man's intentions correctly I beleive he wants to die doing this. Never the less, he is opperating outside of the bounderies set for Professional Hunters by Professional Hunters, the clients do the shooting and the PH is there for moral support and protection. A real PH never takes credit and does not sell himself the way Sullivan does.
But, to my knowledge he has never cheated a client out of money, and I would think the exact opposite would be the case after talking to him and hearing him discuss his reasons, ethics and values

You gotta hand it to the guy in some respects. He left what he considered a dull boring life at basically middle age and went to Africa to pursue his dream. He took the risk and made it work. I am not sure from our conversation if he thought much about what if it did not work out, once again a bit "off" mentally, nor did he put much thought and effort into the people and life he was leaving behind. However most people have chosen much safer routes thru life, the man is no coward. This is probably somewhat askew but he reminds me of Woody Harrallson
in the movie "Natural Born Killers"

I think a phsyciatrist could write a whole book on Mark Sullivan....and me also

Cal, I understand your politically correct way of thinking. It seems today most of us have been systematically programmed to justify any abhorrent activity as simply personal choice to be ignored for the sake of civility, no matter how much long term damage it does.

That is unfortunate because political correctness is nothing more than political censorship. It seems everyone wants to just stick his/her head in the sand a never mention the ills of society, and they will surely just go away!

Dream on! If poor behavior is not confronted it will grow, as has been made clear with this particular subject having been accepted by many here. The longer the younger folks see this activity touted as acceptable, and practiced by them, the more acceptable it becomes to the older generation as well.

Political correctness has made many things that for centuries have been considered abhorrent have now become acceptable, simply because nobody had balls enough to speak out against it.

Political correctness is one of the biggest reasons people are slowly loosing there freedoms because they are not allowed to speak out against anything for fear of offending someone's race or their abhorrent activity!

........................................................................... BYE

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

The most insightful post on this thread.

Thank you Mike.
:-)



And I want to add:
I had spoken witch nearly 8 clients from Mark and 5 clients from Ivan. Each of them are absoluty happy and they all said, that they have choosen the best PH. All said, they have some of the best days of theirs lives with Ivan or Mark (depent on the clienet) in the african bush.

Both of them wants to show in their movies good actions szenes and charges and close quarter shooting and dangerous moments and life and dead szenarios.

I would the say the different is: Ivan shows more nature and wild life and explain that and Mark shows more shooting, guns and explain the using of guns.

And, very important:
Both loves doubles.
Boths loves to shoot heavy calibers.
Both loves africa.
Both loves hunting.



Best wishes to the USA from Dubai.

FM

Thanks for the post Frank. Looking forward to seeing you in Germany during the Heym Challenge!

Shawn

Just curious, I know we have him strung up, sitting on the horse and we are about to slap the horse's butt, but can anyone cite a single instance where someone who actually hunted with Mark (not who saw him across the hall at SCI, met someone that knew someone that once saw his housekeeper at the grocery store, etc.) had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

If his style of hunting is not your style, it does not sound like he will miss your booking, so just move on. Kevin Robertson recently sat in judgment, without naming names, of certain outfitters for their hunting approaches. Kevin was called out for his actions and taken to task. Is it so different for others to sit in judgment of Mark's hunting style? Why the double standard?

This guys videos just lack class.I wish they would stop showing African hunting shows on TV.There is nothing but garbage associated with TV and the people who watch it.STOP recruiting all these worthless shit to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

If you are the type of person who can develop first impressions there is definatly something "off" about him, he had a very odd look in his eyes when we spoke. I have seen the same look in crazy and very desperate people I have met.

I tried to warn you guys in post #11 of this thread, but N-O-O-O-O, you all went ahead and played in this re-curring shithole, and now you're wondering how you got so dirty!

There is one new twist, psychiatric diagnosis via lunch by non-professionals. That is a new one and I'm sure some of you will count on that evaluation to justify your position!

Please do carry-on!

Shawn, thanks for your help. You're a true gentleman. PM on the way. Cheers, Ben

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

... psychiatric diagnosis via lunch by non-professionals.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Cal, I understand your politically correct way of thinking. It seems today most of us have been systematically programmed to justify any abhorrent activity as simply personal choice to be ignored for the sake of civility, no matter how much long term damage it does.

That is unfortunate because political correctness is nothing more than political censorship. It seems everyone wants to just stick his/her head in the sand a never mention the ills of society, and they will surely just go away!

Dream on! If poor behavior is not confronted it will grow, as has been made clear with this particular subject having been accepted by many here. The longer the younger folks see this activity touted as acceptable, and practiced by them, the more acceptable it becomes to the older generation as well.

Political correctness has made many things that for centuries have been considered abhorrent have now become acceptable, simply because nobody had balls enough to speak out against it.

Political correctness is one of the biggest reasons people are slowly loosing there freedoms because they are not allowed to speak out against anything for fear of offending someone's race or their abhorrent activity!

........................................................................... BYE

Mac,

Thank you.

You put it in a better prespective than I could have done.

Cal's point is it is OK for Mark Sullivan to peddle his disgusting ways of glorifying himself under the guise of hunting.

But it is not OK for us who see this as being against the grain of what we consider as hunting to object to him.

Typical "political correctness"!

And nothing is as disgusting as this in our modern society!

A blurb from Sullivan's sales pitch:

"So good are the shooting scenes you will find yourself on the edge of your seat wishing it was you busting these monsters instead of me and my clients."

Not "shooting," but "busting."

Not "dangerous game," but "monsters."

Not "my clients," but "me and my clients." (Notice who gets top billing!)

There is no parody funnier than self-parody.

quote:

...actually hunted with Mark had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

I dont think so.

Bock, III

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

...actually hunted with Mark had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

I dont think so.

FM

Actually, that does not say much for his clients!

They are probably of the same mentality, and I have absolutely no sympathy with them.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

...actually hunted with Mark had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

I dont think so.

FM

Well where are these satisfied & happy clients? why don't they speak up? if I paid somebody thousands of dollars to kill my game,I would be talking him up,I think it's only fair,let us hear from these satisfied clients!!!!
There are some very respectable PH's who get mentioned here quite frequently & rightly so,why don't we get to read any hunt reports from Sullivan's clients?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

...actually hunted with Mark had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

I dont think so.

FM

Well where are these satisfied & happy clients? why don't they speak up? if I paid somebody thousands of dollars to kill my game,I would be talking him up,I think it's only fair,let us hear from these satisfied clients!!!!
There are some very respectable PH's who get mentioned here quite frequently & rightly so,why don't we get to read any hunt reports from Sullivan's clients?

By that same measure, where are Mark's unhappy clients, if there are any? Why don't they speak up? If they paid somebody thousands of dollars only to have him kill their game, why aren't they talking him down? It would be only fair to hear from these dissatisfied clients? Eh?

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think there is more to the man and his hunts than what is portrayed in the DVDs with regards to the buffalo charges. He is producing a show. A show that is very different from Ivan's no doubt. I suspect that Sullivan is trying to make a video that is less of a "hunter's journal" of safari and more along the scripted lines of TV's "reality" shows where drama is fabricated and all that we see is not a true reflection of what is happening behind the scenes. Otherwise, there would be a small army of dissatisfied clients. The fact that no one who has personally hunted with him has given a negative report on his safaris speaks volumes to me. And I don't buy the uninformed client argument as I know one fellow who has hunted with him more than once and he is a very accomplished hunter.

Something that never gets mentioned is Mark's conduct of the cat hunts; both lion and leopard. I've never seen Mark shoot first or early on those cat hunts and they all appear to be conducted ethically and professionally. I would suspect that the tighter quota on cats is something he respects and does not play around with. What I mean by that statement is that I suspect that some of the buff we see him getting in on the action with instead of the client doing all of the shooting, may in fact be buff that Mark has reserved for himself to hunt and portrays the action as the clients hunt instead. That's speculation on my part but it would make sense. If it is Mark's buff and he says to the client, you can shoot it on camera but I'm going to join in quickly, I doubt that would upset the client. I know he must reserve some quota for himself as he shoots a buff or two every once in a while on DVD where there is no client. Case in point is the last buff shot at the end of "Shot to Death". I don't know the legalities of that as maybe even he would need a PH to guide him to make the hunt legal, but do we know that there isn't another PH off camera?

Again, much speculation on my part. But the point I'm trying to make is that we, as viewers of his DVD's, and not being there at the time and place where the DVD is captured on camera, don't really know what goes on behind the scenes. The fact that his client base seems to be overwhelmingly happy with him further suggests something to this effect. There is simply more to the story than what we see in the videos. Of that, I'm convinced.

Todd:

quote:

I suspect that some of the buff we see him getting in on the action with instead of the client doing all of the shooting, may in fact be buff that Mark has reserved for himself to hunt and portrays the action as the clients hunt instead.

What you have suggested is totally illegal and if it be true also goes against his ethics as a PH.
The PH is supposed to intervene only in the event of a situation where the client's life is at risk and in the case of MS I guess this is the exact situation (purposely created though)

MS does however enjoy the privilege of being a TZ resident and with that status is entitled to legally hunt a limited number of defined species, buffalo included per month on a residential license and if he wanted to produce a film of these hunts he would be entitled to do so.

It would be up to the TZ authorities to nail him on filming rights for commercial purposes and the TZ Game Dept. for practicing unethical hunting techniques.

Well, as I said, speculation on my part. I figured there might be some legal issues with my statement as I don't know your laws there. That wasn't my point however.

The point I was making is that we as viewers don't know all the details of how he produces his show. Ivan, Shockey, Boddington, and the like produce shows that are journalistic in that they very realistically show life on safari. Mark's videos are more about drama. They seem more like a scripted "reality" show to me where the actions appear to be reality but are in fact carefully laid out and controlled. If everything we see in his shows are to be taken at face value, I would think there would be legions of pissed off clients and he would have trouble selling his hunts. That doesn't seem to be the case, so there must be something more to the man and the way he conducts his safaris than what we witness on the videos.

And there is a very marked difference in how he conducts cat hunts. No, I'm not talking about how he doesn't tempt fate with the much more dangerous cats the way he does with buff and hippo. I'm talking about how he doesn't shoot the clients animals or isn't nearly as quick to jump into the action on the cat hunts. I can't see any ethical issues with his portrayal of the cat hunts. Again, different than the buff hunts. There is something going on behind the scenes that is different in that he seems to be more respectful of the client's hunt when it comes to the cats.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. FM:

quote:

...actually hunted with Mark had one thing bad to say about Mark or his/her hunt?

I dont think so.

FM

There are some very respectable PH's who get mentioned here quite frequently & rightly so,why don't we get to read any hunt reports from Sullivan's clients?

Bal, two reasons that I can think of off the top of my head. One, hard as it may be to imagine, there are some folks that actually have a life outside of AR. I personally know one person that does occasionally post on AR that has hunted with Mark a number of times but his visits to the site are episodic and his posts are even less frequent because he is a very busy professional. For the same reason, I suspect that is why you do not see reports on a number of other very good PHs. For example, how many reports have you read of hunters that actually hunted with Calitz, Dawson, etc. Two, and perhaps more importantly, if you were a hunter that frequented AR and you hunted with Mark Sullivan, given the vitriol directed his way, would you come on here and talk about your hunt? Only to have everyone question your ethics as a hunter? To have everyone quiz you about whether you or Mark shot your animal? To have the thread degenerate into a rant about Mark? I think not.

Mike:
Very well said and very logical.
Saeed:
You misread my post. Never did I state folks should not disagree or post such comments. My only question is what drives many to make such posts seemingly without end. That's all.
Mac:
We must have different definitions of politically correct. My admiration of Mark I don't think fits into that category. Yes, I have seen a couple of things I wish he had done differently but all-in-all he's a good man in my book.
To the folks who sent me emails:
Thanks and I understand wanting to avoid the attacks.
To the six gents over the years who told me they would not buy my book on the .600 due to the fact I have some photos of Mark in it:
You missed a great read!

The endless publicity is giving Mark great name recognition. At gun shows and gun shops folks who are not into African hunting don't know who Ivan and other are, but many seem to know who Mark is. I guess when Express Yourself made a simple mention of a video being available and the fireworks started (again) even more will know of the gent's name. I wish when the name of Cal Pappas was mentioned I got all the press as my book sales would increase greatly.

To those I offended with my support of Mark:
You have my apology.
Mark:
My hat is off to you and if I can ever scrape the funds together to hunt in Tanzania again you will be the one I call. Of course, I'll take one of my .600s.
Cheers all (and be gentle).
Cal

Well said Mike.

This is pretty comical - the OP was just trying to sell some DVDs.

+1 to Mjines and Cal.

MS is hardly the devil. But by all means exercise capitalism and hunt with someone else. Although I seriously doubt MS will notice or even cares, at least you'll instead be supporting PHs with whom you most appreciate and identify. I don't see a need to slam other hunters in the process, much like I don't see a reason for 5 pages of BS when someone simply posts a canned lion hunt or a 41.7" sable for sale.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Full Roar:

If you are the type of person who can develop first impressions there is definatly something "off" about him, he had a very odd look in his eyes when we spoke. I have seen the same look in crazy and very desperate people I have met.

I tried to warn you guys in post #11 of this thread, but N-O-O-O-O, you all went ahead and played in this re-curring shithole, and now you're wondering how you got so dirty!

There is one new twist, psychiatric diagnosis via lunch by non-professionals. That is a new one and I'm sure some of you will count on that evaluation to justify your position!

Please do carry-on!

Mike
______________
DSC
DRSS (again)
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

"To be a Marine is enough."
Posts: 2524 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 18 November 2008



Well, the guy I met who told me about this little forum and about the good guy Saeed who puts it on told me to be careful what I say as there are sharks in the water, I should have listened-my bad. I met that gentleman at the Brew Brothers having a beer and dinner and he is a hellofa nice guy

Back when I was a young man in Wyoming they did not refer to us as professional hunters. Only in africa is that term used. We were refered to as Hunting Guide, Elk Guide, Sheep Guide, River Guide, Fishing Guide etc. or mostly just guide. Of course I stopped that line of work a long time ago, deciding to get a better paying job and have a family
However, the quip as refering to me as non-professional couldn't be further from the truth. I am definatly a professional at what I do. And I have met so called "Professional Hunters" who are anything but. Time to take a look in the mirror boys.

Glad I could provide some entertainment for the innernuts on the internet. I'll be more careful in the future

I was just having a laugh FullRoar, nothing personal. Just the way I read it I guess, was amusing. Forgive me if it seemed I was having a go at you.

David

I don't think many people doubt how much I love hunting.

But, I will hang my rifles and give it all up if I have to hunt with someone like Mark Sullivan, so he can just shoot my animals and brag about it!

Will you pay for me to hunt with him and give a complete and detailed report?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Well said Mike.

As you know, Mark and I have been friends for many years and hunt together as well. Right on target Mark and Cal +1.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I wish when the name of Cal Pappas was mentioned I got all the press as my book sales would increase greatly.


Cal

Have you thought of making a DVD -

DEATH BY BORE RIFLE

Mark's not the only one who gets charged.

Counterpoint: "Oh, but he cunningly and deliberately makes them (buffalo) charge, wounded (even though I wasn't there to actually know for sure)."

Anyway, what is wrong with getting close to a hippo, and it charging, when that sort of thing happens even more often with our well-respected elephant hunters?

Now, if you don't like the way he speaks on camera, fair-enough - I admit it isn't very British or Australian - BUT he's not the only one who hams it up a bit for the camera.

Anyway, how many wounded buffalo have charged compared to the number that went down neatly?

Further, many elephant guides join-in after the client has made a perfect chest shot. Is that somehow different?

I'll never be able to afford the sort of hunt he offers, but if ever he happened to be going through my town, he'd be welcome to stop in for a beer and a chat about double rifles and adventure. I wouldn't make that same offer for Satan or Hitler.

Right. Fire away. But I won't hate on demand or because it's popular to do-so.

BenKK,

True.

Thing is although others will glamorise the hunt on film, there are few who will wound or push the game for drama.

Russ Broom who commented here earlier has shot many more buffalo than Mark and has probably experienced only a couple of charges. One which is on a bad bit of amateur film.

The only shit I ever had was when I was young and inexperienced.

Agreed he would be a good chap to have around the bar and I am sure he is a good hunter. Just not a good Profession Hunter.

Next time things get a little slow here I'm going to start a thread:
Mark Sullivan-Love him or hate him?

quote:

Originally posted by bwana cecil:
Next time things get a little slow here I'm going to start a thread:
Mark Sullivan-Love him or hate him?

Don't forget to add something about Capstick when you do that.

Can someone please enlighten us about why so many shots are fired on his latest video?

I have no wish to see it, but have heard that the AVERAGE shots per animal killed was over 13 shots!!???

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Can someone please enlighten us about why so many shots are fired on his latest video?

I have no wish to see it, but have heard that the AVERAGE shots per animal killed was over 13 shots!!???

I saw that number reflected in your post on page 1 of this thread Saeed. I am not sure where you came up with that information. Mark mentions there are 13 hunts featured and over 175 gunshots in the DVD.

Perhaps you incorrectly made an assumption using those two figures in your earlier post?

Shawn

Shawn,

Yes I did.

If someone shoots 13 animals and fires 175 shots, the average is over 13 shots per animal.

If I misunderstood that, would you explain it to us please?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Shawn,

Yes I did.

If someone shoots 13 animals and fires 175 shots, the average is over 13 shots per animal.

If I misunderstood that, would you explain it to us please?

Saeed,

I do not recall anyone stating that there were 13 animals killed in this DVD that were shot a total of over 175 times. Perhaps that was something you erroneously extrapolated.

The DVD has over 175 gunshots as Mark noted and contains 13 hunts. These two numbers, 13 hunts and over 175 gunshots, do not directly relate to the number of shots to kill each animal contained within the 13 hunts.

For example, the intro trailer has over 80 gunshots alone, some of the 13 hunts have more than 1 animal killed, there are also slow motion replays with gunshots fired, etc.

Shawn

What is the reason for Mark to line himself up for a shot on a wounded buff? - You see this happening over and over.

I would have expected to see him instead trying to position his client for the shot instead of himself and once the client fires, if he wants to remember the Alamo and the client has no objection, then burn powder!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
What is the reason for Mark to line himself up for a shot on a wounded buff? - You see this happening over and over.

I would have expected to see him instead trying to position his client for the shot instead of himself and once the client fires, if he wants to remember the Alamo and the client has no objection, then burn powder!

I would not conclude that is how things occur on a regular basis Fujotupu. A lot also has to do with the specific situation and of course in some instances camera perspective. When using only one camera on a hunt there is not always the luxury of a wide shot from one camera for perspective and a tight shot, push, or a zoom shot from the other.

In my experiences, Mark wants his clients to kill their animals and to be a controlling component of the entire process of their hunt from beginning to conclusion. When we are in the thick stuff or 10’ grass we don’t play around much for positioning for the obvious reasons that you are aware of yourself.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
What is the reason for Mark to line himself up for a shot on a wounded buff? - You see this happening over and over.

I would have expected to see him instead trying to position his client for the shot instead of himself and once the client fires, if he wants to remember the Alamo and the client has no objection, then burn powder!

I would not conclude that is how things occur on a regular basis Fujotupu. A lot also has to do with the specific situation and of course in some instances camera perspective. When using only one camera on a hunt there is not always the luxury of a wide shot from one camera for perspective and a tight shot, push, or a zoom shot from the other.

In my experiences, Mark wants his clients to kill their animals and to be a controlling component of the entire process of their hunt from beginning to conclusion. When we are in the thick stuff or 10’ grass we don’t play around much for positioning for the obvious reasons that you are aware of yourself.

Shawn

I laughed so much after reading the above bit about wanting his clients to kill their animals I got a sore throat!!