Why dont we see the client shooting when there is a charge? Why dont we ever see the client stopping the charge? Doesnt this ever happen? As far as a PH shooting at a clients animal- well only in a charge or else I stay home or look elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:

Right. Fire away. But I won't hate on demand or because it's popular to do-so.

The vendetta against Mark Sullivan here is totally out of proportion. There are many PHs I've seen on video that don't act in a way I consider appropriate, but you don't hear a word against them here.

We are all different and we should respect that without ridiculing at every opportunity. Ridiculing a person's hair, accent and other incidental facts is just pathetic. It's the kind of behaviour we all left behind at infants school.

I have enjoyed watching MS on video. His close quarters shooting is the best I have ever seen. That guy can handle a double rifle.

With regards to comments by Cal Pappas, my main objection to Marks hunting methods are that people watching these DVD would tar all Professional Hunters with the same brush.

It is unfortunate that Mark had no formal Apprenticeship under a seasoned African PH, who would have taught him the way safaris should be conducted. I think it gives a very bad impression of from a consevation point of view, and our industry is under constant scutiny by the anti hunting movement the last thing we need is unprofessional conduct being aired in public.

I have nothing against Mark as a person but I think he is bad for the industry from a public relations stand point. Perhaps some editing might have been in order.

quote:

When using only one camera on a hunt there is not always the luxury of a wide shot from one camera for perspective and a tight shot, push, or a zoom shot from the other.

The frames are there and speak for themselves and hopefully canned lions are not part of the deal

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
I have enjoyed watching MS on video. HIS close quarters shooting is the best I have ever seen. That guy can handle a double rifle.

.......................CASE CLOSED!
That is the problem with Mark Sullivan, he does far too much shooting of the client's game!

................
He has some beautiful double rifles and he shoots them a lot! However it takes little skill to put a Hippo or buffalo down at ten feet with a brain shot! You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

Ain't that the truth!

"I believe in allowing the lion to choose how I am going to die. Mano a gato."

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

Ain't that the truth!

"I believe in allowing the lion to choose how I am going to die. Mano a gato."

To the above! ....... and ...

Shawn has kept quiet on my canned lion tweet - At 05:42 on the clip the lion is behind a fence and yeah, the zoom effect could not quite "hide" the wire.

I have heard he refuses to follow wounded buffalo into thick bush too

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

Ain't that the truth!

"I believe in allowing the lion to choose how I am going to die. Mano a gato."

The only reason I keep jumping back into these Mark Sullivan bash sessions is I hate to see unfair comments, against anyone for that matter. Over and over we hear how he has no lion charges in his videos.

Guys, that simply isn't true. Death on the Run has a lion charge which startes out with the client shooting the cat on top of a kopjie and what appears to be a hit low on the shoulder. Client is using a scoped 375. They proceed to the follow up and the client has now switched to a double 470. As they approach, you hear the cat grunt repeatedly then charge. The camera is focused over Mark's shoulder, he squares up in the exact same manner that he does on the buff and hippo charges, and before the lion get's close, as Mark always shoots when the animal is close, the client shoots and stops the charge. But it is irrefutable that this lion was wounded and coming for them in a full charge and appeared to be capable of pressing home the attack prior to the client stopping the charge.

Originally posted by Shootaway:

quote:

Why dont we see the client shooting when there is a charge? Why dont we ever see the client stopping the charge? Doesnt this ever happen? As far as a PH shooting at a clients animal- well only in a charge or else I stay home or look elsewhere.

Shootaway, once again, you are incorrect. Most of the charges on his videos have the client shooting as well. Most of the time, the client appears to miss. For example, but not the only example by far, in the same movie I referenced above, Death on the Run, the video ends with a buff charge, again with the camera focused over Marks shoulder and with the microphone on Mark's lapel. As the buff begins his charge, the client shoots and misses, you can clearly hear the shot and see where the dirt is kicked up over the back of the buff, then Mark stops the charge at close quarters. Again, if you're going to bash the guy, at least be accurate in your comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have heard he refuses to follow wounded buffalo into thick bush too

I guess it has chosen it way to die ..... a prolonged and agonizing death. But on the other hand the brush would cause distortion and negatively affect the footage.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have heard he refuses to follow wounded buffalo into thick bush too

I guess it has chosen it way to die ..... a prolonged and agonizing death. But on the other hand the brush would cause distortion and negatively affect the footage.

I suspect the brush works as a deterrent to Hollywood grandsanding that screams LOOK HOW BRAVE I AM!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have heard he refuses to follow wounded buffalo into thick bush too

Guys, that one simply is not true either. For example, on the video Death by the Ton, (I think that is it as I haven't seen it in awhile), he and his client go into to some extremely thick brush after a buff that the two of them had previously fired upon. The first shot appeared to be a good hit as the animal faced to the right, it took the bullet, turned 180 degrees and ran to the left, the client fired his second barrel, then Mark fired both barrels just before it disappeared into the thick stuff. The two of them approached, the buff did a mock charge, paused, then ran past them to the left as they both finished it off. Point being, they followed the wounded buff into the brush. In fact, the brush was so thick that you could only see a silhouette of the buff as it fell.

Later in that same video, they (the same client) approached an unwounded hippo in heavy brush where you could only see the bull's head sticking out of the foliage. It did not charge, but ran past them. The client fired first and IIRC, he fired both barrels before Mark fired.

Again, please stick to accurate statements. There IS video evidence of Mark Sullivan following wounded buffalo into thick brush to finish the task at hand.

Is it a requirement to hunt with Mark Sullivan to be an utterly useless shooter?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Is it a requirement to hunt with Mark Sullivan to be an utterly useless shooter?

No, I wouldn't imagine so. From what I've seen on those films, many clients are fine shots. I'd hazard a guess that every PH experiences a range of client shooting abilities.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
I'd hazard a guess that every PH experiences a range of client shooting abilities.

Tempered with coaching and good management of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

Ain't that the truth!

"I believe in allowing the lion to choose how I am going to die. Mano a gato."

The only reason I keep jumping back into these Mark Sullivan bash sessions is I hate to see unfair comments, against anyone for that matter. Over and over we hear how he has no lion charges in his videos.

Guys, that simply isn't true. Death on the Run has a lion charge which startes out with the client shooting the cat on top of a kopjie and what appears to be a hit low on the shoulder. Client is using a scoped 375. They proceed to the follow up and the client has now switched to a double 470. As they approach, you hear the cat grunt repeatedly then charge. The camera is focused over Mark's shoulder, he squares up in the exact same manner that he does on the buff and hippo charges, and before the lion get's close, as Mark always shoots when the animal is close, the client shoots and stops the charge. But it is irrefutable that this lion was wounded and coming for them in a full charge and appeared to be capable of pressing home the attack prior to the client stopping the charge.

Todd I think you missed the point of the selective quote by me!

I don’t think there is a PH who has been around very long hunting lion that has not had a charge from a wounded lion. Nobody said he never had a lion charge! Lion charges are far more likely to charge than Buffalo, and MS has had more charges by buffalo than any ten OLD PHs that have been around since before Mark was born. I can guarantee you that you will not find a scene in any of his films where he does anything to cause a charge by a lion, and any charge you see from one on a film with Mark it will be a legitimate charge, not induced. Mark is many things but he is not stupid enough to purposely cause a charge from a lion.

What I was referring to is his stupid habit of kicking dirt at a hippo or wounded and downed buffalo to CAUSE a charge. That is what I meant by my statement “You never see him trying that STUNT on a lion!” And you never will see it.

Lets just compare the number of purposely CAUSED charges he’s had with buffalo, and Hippo, and then try to find even one purposely CAUSED charge by a lion in ANY of his films! As I stated in one of my posts, there is a scene in one of his films (SUDDEN DEATH)where a young Argentina man wounded a lion by a deflected shot that actually hit a downed tree far to the right of the lion, glancing into the lion’s flank gut shooting him. The lion and another male lion went into the heavy bush, and began to roar. The camera was on Mark’s face while he is checking his ammo in the double rifle before having to go into the weeds with this lion. You can see the absolute FEAR in his eyes as he apparently dreaded going in there. Now I don’t blame him because that was a very dangerous follow-up. The point is, he wasn’t about to kick dirt in the face of that lion to show how brave he was like he does with hippo and downed and wounded buffalo!

I don’t for one minute think he purposely wounds animals to get close-in charges for his films! However, people are always blaming camera angle, or scenes that are placed together out of order, but there are several case where this is not the case. There are several scenes in his films (MBOGO) like the one where you can see a downed buffalo 50 feet behind him struggling to get to his feet while Mark in the same frame is talking to the camera about how good his concession is and how many buffalo it has for several minutes instead of getting his client put the poor thing out of it’s misery. Then, after his commercial on film, proceeds to walk up to the downed buffalo so close that the buffalo has no choices but to try to protect it’s self and rises to charge. That is just one of the scenes that caused me to stop buying his films and to start critiquing the ones I had already bought.

I was in Zambia shortly after his first film hit the market (BLACK DEATH) in which his first, on film, charge was filmed. It was evident to me in that first case he caused that charge on purpose. That one was almost a fatal mistake, because that one almost got him. Ken Baron a partner of Ngwenya Safaris told me “that guy is going to get killed, or get someone killed harassing wounded buffalo to get a charge”.

IMO, the value in his films is to study the body language of buffalo to learn what he is about to do when approached, especially when he is already wounded.

Mac,

One of the virtues of this forum is that truth and accuracy of statement is valued. BS usually gets identified and called out as such. These repeated MS bashing fests are fraught with inaccuracies. Whatever your intent, the statement implies Mark Sullivan doesn't have the balls to face a lion charge. Saeed's comments implies Mark Sulivan doesn't have the balls to go into the thick brush for buffalo (and Hippo). Shootaways comment ... well I'm not sure those are worth addressing but I will, insinuates his clients are just observers and don't shoot when charges happen.

None of those statements are true and are misrepresentations, pure and simple. Deny it all you like, but the video evidence is there, as even you pointed out from Sudden Death (which I haven't seen) as you walk back your statement.

For all the guy's faults, and he has many, cowardliness doesn't seem to be one of them. What is true is that Mark Sullivan comes across as arrogant and condescending. He easily overshadows most of his clients on screen making them appear impotent. Very few on screen clients hold their own with him in commentary, and when they do, they don't come off any better than Mark does. Some of his clients seem to be very good shots and capable hunters. Others, not so much.

I have a few of his videos and used to watch them often before I started hunting Africa. I would be lying if I said his videos didn't have something to do with fanning the flames to get me to finally make the trip across the pond. I would also say that I care much less to watch his productions now as I did in the past and on the rare occasion I do pop one of his DVDs into the player, I tire of it quickly.

I'm not a huge fan of his. I've enjoyed some of the scenes and others not so much. I try to view the topic fairly. What that means is that I understand his clients all seem very happy and it appears that many hunt with him repeatedly. That has to count for something the causal video watcher isn't privy to. Pointing out that his style and personality runs counter to what most here would consider normal or even tolerable is an accurate statement IMO. Implying that the man is a coward, is not, IMO, an accurate statement.

Would seem that Mark gets a lot more attention than Ivan and ultimately that is how he makes his money.

I would be interested to know exactly how many DVDs Mark has sold and this would be indicative of his commercial prowess.

We all agree that his ethics are questionable but on the other hand we all want that great bit of video and that perfect trophy picture to go on the wall.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

We all agree that his ethics are questionable . . . .

No we do not. "All" is a poor choice of words. You may disagree with his approach, but that is a decision for each person to make. Some people question the ethics of hunting fenced properties, others hunting dangerous game with a bow, some hunting game at feeders, using small caliber rifles on deer, shooting animals at long distances, the list goes on and on . . . the point is while some may take offense others do not see an issue. There is no universal standard of what is or is not permissible for hunters to do. Some seem to believe that they have been appointed the arbiter of what is or is not permissible, regretfully (thankfully?), that is not the case.

Excellent post Mike. A good friend of mine (Allen Day RIP) hunted with him several times and had nothing but praise for him. I'd hunt with Sullivan anytime. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You never see him trying that stunt with a lion!

.......................................................................

Ain't that the truth!

"I believe in allowing the lion to choose how I am going to die. Mano a gato."

To the above! ....... and ...

Shawn has kept quiet on my canned lion tweet - At 05:42 on the clip the lion is behind a fence and yeah, the zoom effect could not quite "hide" the wire.

I’m sorry Fujotupu; I did not realize you were waiting for a comment from me. I thought you were simply making a comment. Below, is an excerpt from the DVD description on my Website where the video link takes you. I incorrectly assumed you had likely read it if you watched the trailer: “This DVD contains two buffalo hunts from Australia plus a lion and buffalo hunt from South Africa.”

Cheers,
Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have heard he refuses to follow wounded buffalo into thick bush too

In my experiences with Mark he has never failed to expeditiously follow-up any type of wounded dangerous game regardless of the habitat. Just my personal experiences.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by ExpressYourself:
I’m sorry Fujotupu; I did not realize you were waiting for a comment from me. I thought you were simply making a comment. Below, is an excerpt from the DVD description on my Website where the video link takes you. I incorrectly assumed you had likely read it if you watched the trailer: “This DVD contains two buffalo hunts from Australia plus a lion and buffalo hunt from South Africa.”

Cheers,
Shawn

Is every single lion and buffalo hunt in South Africa canned or high fence?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
They are both very different but have both played their part in inspiring others to hunt. If you think that's a bad thing then that's up to you.

Actors within our industry.

Four words more accurate than any other post on this subject.

Matt,

Not at all. If you can afford it there is some great lion and buffalo hunting along the Kruger border.

Mark

Mac, your point was crystal clear. And your follow up even clearer.

Sullivan condemns himself both by what he does, and what he doesn't do, on film. He is apparently not stupid, although certainly shameless and unethical.

And given the sheer number of provoked charges in his films, one must wonder whether what he does off camera, between takes, is even worse than what we see captured on film.

That Sullivan has any fans, or even supporters, especially on this forum of experienced African hunters, is surprising to me.

But I suppose it shouldn't be. There is no accounting for taste, and too many are afraid or unwilling, in this permissive world, to judge the conduct of others, no matter how contemptible.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
There is no accounting for taste, and too many are afraid or unwilling, in this permissive world, to judge the conduct of others, no matter how contemptible.

Mike, it also seems as if there are those that are all too anxious to impose their sense of right or wrong on others in matters that are not moral or legal in nature. (Not to mention the herd following sycophants.) Tell me,

1. Is high fenced hunting right or wrong? If wrong, why is it wrong? If acceptable, why is it acceptable? What makes the opinions of those that take one side more "right" than the opinions of those with a contrary view?
2. Is baiting right or wrong? If wrong, why is it wrong? If okay, why is it okay? What makes the opinions of those that take one side more "right" than the opinions of those with a contrary view?
3. Are canned lion hunts right or wrong? If wrong, why is it wrong? If acceptable, why is it acceptable? What makes the opinions of those that take one side more "right" than the opinions of those with a contrary view?
4. Is the use of .22 caliber centerfire rifles to hunt deer wrong? If wrong, why is it wrong? If acceptable, why is it acceptable? What makes the opinions of those that take one position more "right" than the opinions of those with a contrary view?
5. Is hunting with a silenced rifle wrong? From a helicopter? With nightvision equipment? If wrong, why is it wrong? If it is okay, why is it okay? What makes the opinions of those that take one side more "right" than the opinions of those with a contrary view?
6. Is a bird hunt (shoot?) in South America where 1000's of birds are shot for sport right or wrong? If wrong, why is it wrong? If it is okay, why is it okay . . . . ?

The list could go on for pages. Too many people are of the view that their opinion or position on a matter is all that counts and are prepared to stand in judgment of others that have a different view. I respect anyone that has a firmly held view -- and your firmly held view is that Sullivan's behavior is contemptible, that is fine, you are entitled to that view -- but that does not make the views of others wrong. We are not talking about moral or legal issues here, these are matters of individual judgment and preference.

No dog in this contest, just an opinion and that is all it is, an opinion. No one is being forced to buy these videos. No one is being forced to hunt with Mr. Carter or Mr. Sullivan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it really does not matter whether or not anyone else on the planet agrees with them, and that applies to EVERYBODY.

This discussion has been blown way out of proportion, simply because the original poster listed the names of two very different individuals in one sentence. People wonder why other folks stop posting on here, stop responding to subjects, stop giving hunting reports or posting pictures of their kills.

It is because of stuff like this, 3 pages of over one damned sentence:

quote:

Ivan Carter and Mark Sullivan DVDs and Trailer

Mike:
You are a well thought logical gent. However, when one's mind is made up there is nothing to do. A few posts above MacD wrote of Mark's "stupid habit of kicking dirt at a hippo..." I recall that happened once--not a habit. Even if it was more, it is a good example of stretching the facts to make an illogical point. In a few days I will go in for a knee replacement and will bring the first ten of Mark's DVDs with me to watch whilst I'm laid up. For each DVD I will list the number of animals killed, who shoots, charge or not, and if a charge was wounded or enticed to the charge. Then I will tabulate in a chart and post it for all to see. It will serve to separate facts from emotion but for many it will serve no purpose. I notice those that have such a strong hate for Mark also attack those that like him. Interesting personality traits we have here on AR. Your common sense is a breath of fresh air.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
For each DVD I will list the number of animals killed, who shoots, charge or not, and if a charge was wounded or enticed to the charge. Then I will tabulate in a chart and post it for all to see.

If you do all that right after surgery, Cal, you need to put someone else in charge of 'pain management'

Hope it goes well and you are soon.

jjbull:
I will be laid up for a couple of weeks. One or two DVDs per day will be fine. I will be on a leg machine for 8-10 hours per day and I don't want to be bored. I will do this after a couple of days and while not on the heavy duty pain pills or morphine. Hopefully a factual tabulation will lay some of the anger to rest.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal,

In Mark's book, "Fear No Death" he talks frankly about his hunters some who can shoot and others not so.
He also talks about the best double rifle shot he has guided and low and behold he is an AR member and MJ, Todd and many others know him.
There is also video of him shooting his buf and hippo by his self. No assist from Mark.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Hopefully a factual tabulation will lay some of the anger to rest.
Cheers,
Cal

Cal I don't think there is any anger involved but simply those who agree and disagree with Marks methods! To answer part of your question why is it that far more disagree with Mark than agree with him? I suppose that is democracy! You know Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper! Not right or wrong just the way the trial comes out.

..................................................................

quote:

There is also video of him shooting his buf and hippo by his self. No assist from Mark

WOW!

Can we enter that in the Guinness Records?

Mac:
I feel many don't come on here to avoid the attacks and pissing. From the dozens of successful hunters who came away with great trophies I think it is safe to assume Mark has lots of supporters. That is evident by his bookings. Anyway, thanks for your reply and whilst on the mend with a new knee I will tabulate ten of Mark's videos. It will be interesting.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Mac:
I feel many don't come on here to avoid the attacks and pissing. From the dozens of successful hunters who came away with great trophies I think it is safe to assume Mark has lots of supporters. That is evident by his bookings. Anyway, thanks for your reply and whilst on the mend with a new knee I will tabulate ten of Mark's videos. It will be interesting.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

Cal,

I wish you the best in your recovery with your new knee.

If you are going to tabulate his videos, it will be very interesting to show how many animals the clients shot and how many Mark shot, and the number of shots fired.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Matt,

Not at all. If you can afford it there is some great lion and buffalo hunting along the Kruger border.

Mark

Thanks Mark!! That is what I thought...

Looking at that MS video clip, I see what looks to be a lot of 'high' shots...

Saeed:
Thanks for your kind thoughts. I will tabulate in an unbiased manner.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

We all agree that his ethics are questionable . . . .

No we do not. "All" is a poor choice of words. You may disagree with his approach, but that is a decision for each person to make. Some people question the ethics of hunting fenced properties, others hunting dangerous game with a bow, some hunting game at feeders, using small caliber rifles on deer, shooting animals at long distances, the list goes on and on . . . the point is while some may take offense others do not see an issue. There is no universal standard of what is or is not permissible for hunters to do. Some seem to believe that they have been appointed the arbiter of what is or is not permissible, regretfully (thankfully?), that is not the case.

Sorry I mean all the PH's I know.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

We all agree that his ethics are questionable . . . .

No we do not. "All" is a poor choice of words. You may disagree with his approach, but that is a decision for each person to make. Some people question the ethics of hunting fenced properties, others hunting dangerous game with a bow, some hunting game at feeders, using small caliber rifles on deer, shooting animals at long distances, the list goes on and on . . . the point is while some may take offense others do not see an issue. There is no universal standard of what is or is not permissible for hunters to do. Some seem to believe that they have been appointed the arbiter of what is or is not permissible, regretfully (thankfully?), that is not the case.

Sorry I mean all the PH's I know.

I think ``all`` was a perfect choice.No need to apologize.When it come to the animals we hunt only complete respect is tolerable-no questions asked.