People ,
We have all had our share of “run ins” with anti hunters ,specifically those who follow a vegetarian or vegan diet and very often they put their nose in the air and want you to believe that their dietary choices have little or no impact on “mother earth” well two bits of news –
1/The earth is not your mother,
and
2/They all wear cotton and this is a pic I took of cotton and grain fields out of the window of the plane coming into Lubbock Texas …it was like this for many many many miles ...farmlands that grow food look very similar …no impact ??…I don’t think so !!!

Anyway ,I posted this on facebook and it went to over 100 000 people in a few hours so I thought I would share it in case you need some fodder for your next “vegetarian encounter”

Thanks for reading !!!!!

There is nothing wrong with a vegan that two double-meat Whoppers can't cure.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
There is nothing wrong with a vegan that two double-meat Whoppers can't cure.

Bill Quimby

I think Ted Nugent said it best.

"I love vegetarians I eat them everyday"

Let me point out a few things:

1. I doubt many vegans have claimed that their food choices have no impact on the environment.

2. What does growing cotton have to do with being vegetarian or vegan?

3. The reason for being vegan or vegetarian with the exception of the fanatical fringe is for health and not to have no impact on mother earth.

4. It is generally much more efficient to use a plot of ground to grow crops than it is to use the same amount of acreage to grow animals for consumption. The exception would be those places where the ground wasn't good enough to grow crops or where water for irrigation wasn't available.

5. For those who would really like to know the advantages of the vegan diet rather than just talk about it, consider reading the China Study; otherwise, enjoy your coronary artery disease, strokes, etc.

From the look of your picture I would be more concerned about weight vs red meat.

How come most vegans and vegetarians I came into contact with are bunny huggers that critisize my lifestyle and my hunting lifestyle. Many claim that we destroy nature with out passion for hunting. More animals are killed yearly in Africa to secure food than what we as hunters hunt. In anyway trophy hunters hunt animals that allready passed on their genes. Food farmers kill anything that damage their crops.

Just saying

I had dinner with a bunch of my customers last night. One of them said she was a vegetarian (she was struggling to see something on the menu to order). I told her that I hunted and that vegetarians were a hunter's best friend. She asked me why. I said, "You prove that humans don't have to eat meat to live. They do so for their own pleasure, and those who stake out moral high ground by protesting hunting forget where that hamburger comes from and are the worst of hypocrites."

She high-fived me. I concluded by saying "I am like you Sally...I am pro-choice. I choose to hunt."

Most humans are not going to give up eating meat. They may not approve of hunting, but they are less inclined to protest when we point out they don't have to eat meat but do so for their own pleasure.

Anyone ever seen a fat vegetarian? Sort of like seeing a picture of a fat guy in a Nazi concentration camp...

Some of you may have heard of "The Least Harm Principle" originally written by a guy named Regan (not the former US President) in 1983. His theory kind of became the cornerstone/rationalization for the current "vegan" trendy life style.

In 2001, a prof named Davis published an article that poked a bunch of holes in Regan's original ideas followed by various vegan counter articles punching holes in Davis's and back and fourth they go.

Here is a link to a summary of Davis's counter vegan theory. Summary of Davis's "Least Harm Theory"

And a link to a much longer Explanation of both sides. Let Them Eat Meat

For me the pivotal take away is that eat what you want. But, the trouble is the "vegans" don't want the non-vegans to have a choice and try to force their views on others by also advocating "animal rights", anti-hunting laws as well as anti-gun laws.

I did my flight training in Lubbock, went to college there too, that scene is very familiar! no shortage of cotton out there, that's for sure.

Veggies and vegans are quite different, in my limited experience. Vegans are rabid abut their choices and everyone else seems to be wrong in their eyes. Most veggies I know are just doing it because they prefer that diet, no politics, no looking down their nose at you.

But, I don't recall hearing any veggies/vegans cite land impact as one of their reasons. Only animal impact.

Then again, I have very little time in my day to talk to a vegan, so maybe they do cite that and I have never let one get that far in a conversation to tell me.

Fat vegetarian? Yep, I got one for a son in law! It is possible.

people ,
take this in the light hearted manner in which it was intended -

You gentlemen must not know a lot of vegetarians or vegans. What you need to understand is that not all vegetarians and vegans are bunny huggers. What probably is responsible for this reputation is the fact that the bunny huggers are the noisy ones.

And yes, there are plenty of fat vegetarians; I know one who weighs over 300 lbs. down from probably 450 lbs. There is more to healthy eating than just being vegetarian or vegan.

I also understand that, despite the belief of some, the whole world won't become vegetarian even though Bill Clinton is. Barring cannibalism, I respect everyone's choice to eat as they like and besides, I feel better knowing that the animals I shoot will be welcomed on someone's dinner table.

And Ivan, I take no offense at all.

Most of the people I've hunted with have never seen a vegetarian hunter which initially caused a bit of angst at least until they find out I know how to kill stuff and that feeding a vegetarian isn't that hard.

One had had several vegetarian clients. A couple of teenagers explained to him that they were vegetarian because a slaughterhouse near where they lived wasn't nice to their workers. When the outfitter told them he was nice to his workers they abandoned vegetarianism at least for that time. His other vegetarian client was the Shah of Iran.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eezridr:
Cut refined grains, white potatos, sugar from your diet ot at least curtail them and watch your weight go down. All vegitable based items.
Eat anything in moderation and you should be OK.
My grand parents ate all the fried foods and dairy products you could imagine but in moderation. Their meals were far smaller than is typical today.
They all lived to be in their 90's. They also exercised more in their daily routine (non gym related). No lawn service or house cleaning help. No remote control on TV's, no remote garage door openers, no self propelled lawn mowers, changed oil and plugs in your car. They just moved around!!
We have morphed into a physically lazy/inactive culture.
BTW; There is not a lot of protien in a vegitable based diet. Bill Walton was a veggie and always injured or breaking bones.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
There is nothing wrong with a vegan that two double-meat Whoppers can't cure.

Bill Quimby

There is/was an "Eco-Friendly" lodge that bordered the place in Namibia we go to every year. The owner used to laugh about all the vegans and vegetarians that would come. His facilities could handle a couple of dozen "guests" at a time so most of the time there were normal "omnivores" with a few vegans staying at the same time. Therefore, their menus had to have items for both.

He used to laugh that almost always, the vegans were always very vocal about how their lifestyle was superior and how anyone could kill another living creature, etc. But, after two or three days of the vegans smelling game meat cooking over the fire they would nearly always decide to try some and would always be strangely very quite afterward about their superior life style. By the end of the stays many would be asking at breakfast what they were going to get to try for dinner that night.

I guess, like Vegas, what is eaten in Africa stays in Africa - LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
You gentlemen must not know a lot of vegetarians or vegans. What you need to understand is that not all vegetarians and vegans are bunny huggers. What probably is responsible for this reputation is the fact that the bunny huggers are the noisy ones.

And yes, there are plenty of fat vegetarians; I know one who weighs over 300 lbs. down from probably 450 lbs. There is more to healthy eating than just being vegetarian or vegan.

I also understand that, despite the belief of some, the whole world won't become vegetarian even though Bill Clinton is. Barring cannibalism, I respect everyone's choice to eat as they like and besides, I feel better knowing that the animals I shoot will be welcomed on someone's dinner table.

And Ivan, I take no offense at all.

Most of the people I've hunted with have never seen a vegetarian hunter which initially caused a bit of angst at least until they find out I know how to kill stuff and that feeding a vegetarian isn't that hard.

One had had several vegetarian clients. A couple of teenagers explained to him that they were vegetarian because a slaughterhouse near where they lived wasn't nice to their workers. When the outfitter told them he was nice to his workers they abandoned vegetarianism at least for that time. His other vegetarian client was the Shah of Iran.

You must be one of 10 vegetarian hunters in the world.

During the summer when I graduated High School (a while ago) I dated a vegan. She didnt seem to care what I ate or what I killed, but the relationship sure didnt last long.

I've never understood the concept that the vegan lifestyle is somehow cruelty free.
Farming displaces native flora and fauna, right down to the tiniest of insects. To believe this is somehow better that eating off land changed to support cows is ridiculous.

I'm not sure if any of you know this, but the word "vegetarian" is an ancient word that when translated into English means "bad, poor, or unskillful hunter."

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

And yes, there are plenty of fat vegetarians; I know one who weighs over 300 lbs. down from probably 450 lbs.

Jeez - what's the point? If I get fat, I'm going to do it the old fashioned way: fried animals and beer.

Ivan,

I'm not sure that an aerial view of Lubbock is the best place to prove a point regarding agricultural impact on wildlife. Those cotton and milo fields formerly were the home range of the north american bison. But the bison were hunted to near extinction long, long before agriculture came to the high plains. After the buffalo were shot out for their hides in the 1870's, this was not prime game country by any stretch of the imagination --- too little water to support much game. Although there still were deer and likely pronhorns.

The agriculture you are seeing is supported entirely by pumping and irrigating from a very deep aquifer that wasn't tapped until the 20th century.

I say this as a very dedicated hunter, but it nevertheless is the truth that eradicative hunting practices (aimed in part at starving out the Comanches) are what left the high plains devoid of much large game --- not the encroachment of agriculture (which didn't come about until several decades after the buffalo were gone).

What on earth took you to Lubbock?

...well done Ivan.
:-)

Epitome of "anti-Vegan" diet.

Paleo

Sheep

When I was going to college many years ago I would at the campus restrant/dining hall. We had a very nice guy who was vegan/or whatever. We would always make a plate from the food that was not meat. He was pround of the fact he did not eat animals.
SO I had to have some fun with him being the hunter/meateater I was/am. He always had cheese and mashed potatoes/gravy at dinner. One nite after asking hime about not eating animals I pointed out that the cheese comes from cows as does the milk he drank. Opened his eyes a bit.

Then I hit him with the gravy is made from the dripping from the roast he will not eat. I then pointed out that if he truly did not eat ANY animal products he would die or at least be very sickly since there is (as I remember) 3-4 essential ammino acids that can only come from animal products that are required for humans to live especially when young and growing.

He still did not eat meat but changed his tune about not eating anything animal.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
people ,
take this in the light hearted manner in which it was intended -

Ivan, it's AR! Ain't nuttin light hearted here!

quote:

He still did not eat meat but changed his tune about not eating anything animal.

I would have suggested removing those items one at a time from his plate.

In the "old days" when I was in college, I ran into a lot of vegetarians. Mostly but not all were female in those days. Mostly but not all strident about it. Mostly no idea of the adverse health consequences. The reason I most heard was - a moral statement against killing animals.

But the REAL motivation was peer group pressure and the need to conform and be like others.

Oh, one of the oddities I noticed was the insistence that fish were not "animals" because "they didn't bleed".

Anyway, I've said this before here but I guess it's OK to repeat it, have a little fun with these people and see if they know who was the world's foremost, well known dedicated vegetarian.

He didn't have the same respect for humans as he did for animals. He killed millions of them. Let them chew on that one.

Another little game you can play is the thing about vegetarians' bones turning green. But I'm not as certain factually on that one; however I did read that it's forensically a way to ID a corpse.

At the base of my wedding invitations I had the following printed below the RSVP line.

"Please let us know if you are a vegetarian so we can order some extra chicken"

K

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Oh, one of the oddities I noticed was the insistence that fish were not "animals" because "they didn't bleed".

Brett must have been on his period.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
people ,
take this in the light hearted manner in which it was intended -

I think what Ivan was pointing out is the large fields producing cotton and other consumables are displacing natural vegetation and animals.
The second part of his brilliant analogy is that the anti hunters and vegans who protest what we do and what we consume apparantly have not put much thought into how their choices affect the natural world and therefor are uninformed hypocrits blindly surging forward with an agenda against us.
Its fine to be a vegan or non-hunter if that is your choice. Our choice is to hunt and to consume meat, as 100's of generations before us did.
Each to their own, but critisizing the other to emphasize your own beliefs is probably not right

Had to take it there, didn't you Jim.

Don't know much about Vegans except the few I have met are really weird, and I truly mean that. I have known Many,many vegetarians. I lived for a number of years in Mt Vernon,Oh and it is somewhat a center of the Seventh Day Adventists church. They are vegetarians and are well known for their Loma Linda brand of foods. I also had a Doctor friend who had attended med school at Loma Linda University. He was an excellant Doctor and was NOT a vegetarian. My daughter worked in an Adventist Dairy Queen that served no meat only soyburgers,which were quite good incidentally. This was in Acedemia,Oh which is where their boarding school was among other things. If I am correctthey invented the hamburger extenders that were once very popular. I have absolutely nothing but praise and admiration for true vegetarians and have never once felt threatened by them or their beliefs. I understand that vegetarians actually have longer and healthier lives than carnivores. Don't know if that is because of their beliefs or diet. They are generally very good cooks. Just my singular opinion of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Oh, one of the oddities I noticed was the insistence that fish were not "animals" because "they didn't bleed".

Brett must have been on his period.

Can you say HEAVY flow......

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by bhtkevin:
You must be one of 10 vegetarian hunters in the world.

Maybe only one of five.

quote:

Originally posted by Divernhunter:
I then pointed out that if he truly did not eat ANY animal products he would die or at least be very sickly since there is (as I remember) 3-4 essential ammino acids that can only come from animal products that are required for humans to live especially when young and growing.

Your memory is faulty. All amino acids are available in even a vegan diet. The only essential nutrient for which there is no plant based source is vitamin B12. That would only be a problem for strict vegans since is available in eggs and milk products. The enterohepatic circulation of vitamin B12 is so efficient that if one was to get none in the diet, it would take years to become deficient unless one had a disease state such as pernicious anemia, malabsorbtion or removal of the terminal ileum which is the source of intrinsic factor. In addition, as unpalatable as it may seem, there is enough vitamin B12 in fecal contaminants that many of us consume on our plant products, it would probably be enough to supply even the strict vegan.

quote:

Originally posted by scojac:
I'm not sure if any of you know this, but the word "vegetarian" is an ancient word that when translated into English means "bad, poor, or unskillful hunter."

That "joke," my good man, is hoary with age. One of my fellow hunters thought that was pretty funny. I've now been to Africa more than he. One of my in-laws also brought it up as well; I believe I have more animals in SCI's top ten than he does.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Anyway, I've said this before here but I guess it's OK to repeat it, have a little fun with these people and see if they know who was the world's foremost, well known dedicated vegetarian.

He didn't have the same respect for humans as he did for animals. He killed millions of them.

Wait! Wait! I KNOW that one! Bill Clinton!

Oh, I guess that's not right since he's vegan. It must be Adolf Hitler you're thinking of.

quote:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe:
I have known Many,many vegetarians. I lived for a number of years in Mt Vernon,Oh and it is somewhat a center of the Seventh Day Adventists church. They are vegetarians and are well known for their Loma Linda brand of foods. I also had a Doctor friend who had attended med school at Loma Linda University. He was an excellant Doctor and was NOT a vegetarian. My daughter worked in an Adventist Dairy Queen that served no meat only soyburgers,which were quite good incidentally. This was in Acedemia,Oh which is where their boarding school was among other things. If I am correctthey invented the hamburger extenders that were once very popular. I have absolutely nothing but praise and admiration for true vegetarians and have never once felt threatened by them or their beliefs. I understand that vegetarians actually have longer and healthier lives than carnivores. Don't know if that is because of their beliefs or diet. They are generally very good cooks. Just my singular opinion of course.

I actually live not that far from Mt. Vernon, OH and worked there a little quite a few years ago. Below is an aerial photo I did of Mt. Vernon Academy, the boarding school you alluded to:



I'm not sure what hamburger extenders you're referring to. Seventh-Day Adventists were at the forefront of the manufacture of foods made from soy products, texturized soy protein among others, at least one of which could be used as a hamburger extender though that wasn't the purpose of it. Loma Linda Foods, Worthington Foods and some other brands originated with Seventh-Day Adventists. In addition, John Harvey Kellogg, was a Seventh-Day Adventist physician and the founder of a company we all know as the one that makes Kellogg's Corn Flakes, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Let me point out a few things:

1. I doubt many vegans have claimed that their food choices have no impact on the environment.

2. What does growing cotton have to do with being vegetarian or vegan?

3. The reason for being vegan or vegetarian with the exception of the fanatical fringe is for health and not to have no impact on mother earth.

4. It is generally much more efficient to use a plot of ground to grow crops than it is to use the same amount of acreage to grow animals for consumption. The exception would be those places where the ground wasn't good enough to grow crops or where water for irrigation wasn't available.

5. For those who would really like to know the advantages of the vegan diet rather than just talk about it, consider reading the China Study; otherwise, enjoy your coronary artery disease, strokes, etc.

I predict that in the next 20 years...blood cholesterol levels will be proven to have little to do with coronary artery disease and that it is high spike of blood surgar that account for the damage. Chloesterol just happens to make up part of the composite in the plaque in the scar.

High levels of protein (a good portion from meat and fish) with fat in moderations and low levels simple carbohydrates will be shown the weigh forward. Certainly good whole vegatables and fruits will be there for fiber #1 and secondarily for vitamins and vitamin precursors.

People on animal protein devoid diets have weak immune systems and cholesterol is required for life.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Let me point out a few things:

1. I doubt many vegans have claimed that their food choices have no impact on the environment.

2. What does growing cotton have to do with being vegetarian or vegan?

3. The reason for being vegan or vegetarian with the exception of the fanatical fringe is for health and not to have no impact on mother earth.

4. It is generally much more efficient to use a plot of ground to grow crops than it is to use the same amount of acreage to grow animals for consumption. The exception would be those places where the ground wasn't good enough to grow crops or where water for irrigation wasn't available.

5. For those who would really like to know the advantages of the vegan diet rather than just talk about it, consider reading the China Study; otherwise, enjoy your coronary artery disease, strokes, etc.

I predict that in the next 20 years...blood cholesterol levels will be proven to have little to do with coronary artery disease and that it is high spike of blood surgar that account for the damage. Chloesterol just happens to make up part of the composite in the plaque in the scar.

High levels of protein (a good portion from meat and fish) with fat in moderations and low levels simple carbohydrates will be shown the weigh forward. Certainly good whole vegatables and fruits will be there for fiber #1 and secondarily for vitamins and vitamin precursors.

People on animal protein devoid diets have weak immune systems and cholesterol is required for life.

Cholesterol and triglycerides have been pretty much established as very significant factors in the development of coronary artery disease. Strict avoidance of more than minimal amounts of fat in the diet has been shown to reverse coronary artery lesions.

Cholesterol is made by the human body and it's true it is required for life but in excess it's harmful.

People on animal protein devoid diets don't have weak immune systems. If they did, it's unlikely they would live longer than their carnivorous colleagues which has been shown to be true in well done studies. There is NO protein from an animal product that isn't available from a plant based source. More on this should be available when the results of the current Adventist Health Study being done by Loma Linda University is available in a few years. Tens of thousands of Seventh-Day Adventists are participating in that study.

quote:

Your memory is faulty. All amino acids are available in even a vegan diet.

Only if you eat seawead! Taurine is only available from some forms of sea-plants and algae.

quote:

Cholesterol and triglycerides have been pretty much established as very significant factors in the development of coronary artery disease. Strict avoidance of more than minimal amounts of fat in the diet has been shown to reverse coronary artery lesions.

This is certainly not with out controversy.

Serumal Cholesterol reducing drugs still have NOT statistically reduced coronary artery disease in humans.

quote:

Cholesterol and triglycerides have been pretty much established as very significant factors in the development of coronary artery disease. Strict avoidance of more than minimal amounts of fat in the diet has been shown to reverse coronary artery lesions.

Ledvm is correct,
I would like to see the double blind study that proves this , Please point it out to me. As far as I know, There are no studies that I know of that prove this. There are essential amino acids that we need in our bodies, it's very difficult to get these being a vegan-vegetarian, you have to eat massive amounts of veggies to get them.
Vegetarians have a tendency to be what is called " skinny fat", they are slim and their clothes fit well but they have no muscle mass. We've had many pure veggies come in and train in our martial arts classes with us over the years and they rarely can make it through on class.
You can get proper nutrition being a veggie, but it is extremely difficult and requires a lot of effort.
To say that they don't have weak immune systems is simply speculation, how do you know? all you have to do is speak with a few ex-veggies who have converted to the paleo-primal type eating and you'll find out quickly how unhealthy they were eating nothing but plants.
And again please point me to the double blind study that shows veggies live longer that meat eaters, I would love to read it. And we are not carivors, we are omnivores. Carnivores eat nothing but meat, skin, bones and entrails.

The greatest single use of cultivated crop land in the U.S. is to grow grains and forage to feed to meat animals.

It takes far less land to produce sufficient food to sustain humans if the humans eat their nutrients in the form of vegetable matter, not meat.

That said, I spent much of my life as a farmer growing cotton, feed grains, and animal forage; not human food crops. However, it is easy to recognize that if we expect to keep on with the luxury of eating meat, which I greatly enjoy, then we have to get a handle on the Earth's human population. It behooves us to facilitate couples reproducing an average of only two children, and not having to birth eight or ten in order for two to make it to adulthood.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:
Vegetarians have a tendency to be what is called " skinny fat", they are slim and their clothes fit well but they have no muscle mass. We've had many pure veggies come in and train in our martial arts classes with us over the years and they rarely can make it through on class.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pure veggies." I, as an ovolacto vegetarian, earned my black belt at age 45 and as the older guy in class could run pretty much every one else into the ground. In addition, in the community where I work, we have a husband wife team both of whom have black belts in Tae Kwon Do; the wife has been a vegetarian for quite some time; he became a vegetarian a year or two ago.

How do I know they don't have weak immune systems? If they had weak immune systems, it would stand to reason they would get more cancers and die sooner which they don't.

As far as it being very hard to get good nutrition being a vegetarian, that just isn't true. It's all a long standing myth that one can't be healthy without eating animal products but really, I have nothing against you omnivores. Eat what you like it bothers me not at all.

quote:

How do I know they don't have weak immune systems? If they had weak immune systems, it would stand to reason they would get more cancers and die sooner which they don't.

Show me the large scale double blind study that shows that.