quote:

Vegetarians have a tendency to be what is called " skinny fat", they are slim and their clothes fit well but they have no muscle mass.

Cape buffalo and Navarra bulls are vegetarians and have plenty of muscle mass. I think it's all what you do with the muscles and not how you feed them.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Vegetarians have a tendency to be what is called " skinny fat", they are slim and their clothes fit well but they have no muscle mass.

Cape buffalo and Navarra bulls are vegetarians and have plenty of muscle mass. I think it's all what you do with the muscles and not how you feed them.

Humans are not ruminants like Cape buffalo - which have special facilities to extract protein and other nutrients from plant material.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

How do I know they don't have weak immune systems? If they had weak immune systems, it would stand to reason they would get more cancers and die sooner which they don't.

Show me the large scale double blind study that shows that.

. I would like to see this to please.

I believe that lifestyle and genetics has a heck of lot more to do with your health than your diet than most want to admit. Great diet, working out, all of those things are a part of a healthy lifestyle; especially when age starts creeping up and "you ain't as good as you once was".

Not a very scientific study but it my former life I never saw a vegan or real vegetarian (and I saw more than 10) complete different military courses that required high levels of endurance combined with food and sleep deprivation. I really get a laugh when I hear about the "healthy non-hormone no fat life style" that County X has. I have worked with most of those "healthy countries" before and still do in a different industry. As a whole, they are extremely weak compared to US workers with comparable jobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Vegetarians have a tendency to be what is called " skinny fat", they are slim and their clothes fit well but they have no muscle mass.

Cape buffalo and Navarra bulls are vegetarians and have plenty of muscle mass. I think it's all what you do with the muscles and not how you feed them.

Humans are not ruminants like Cape buffalo - which have special facilities to extract protein and other nutrients from plant material.

Exactly!
Buffalo may eat plants but they digest protozoa. Meaning they allow protozoa to breakdown the plant mass then the protozoa are moved into the 'true stomach' (abomasum) and then digested. Thus...they get there nutrients from the Animal Kingdom as well.

Well isn;t that soemthing...

Vegetarians and Vegans do claim they have less impact on the environment than meat eaters. They claim cattle make large contributions to "carbon gases" so becoming vegenuttarian will "save the planet" or some such crap ...

There was even some extensive television advertisement campaign pushing that here by some nutter ugly Buddhist western female freak here in Oz.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Vegetarians and Vegans do claim they have less impact on the environment than meat eaters. They claim cattle make large contributions to "carbon gases" so becoming vegenuttarian will "save the planet" or some such crap ...

One of the great lies of the 'man made' global warmists...

The medical research that is out there now shows a correlation between elevated cholesterol and triglycerides and an increased risk of heart disease.

No one has yet been able to prove "why" it happens, but that it is correlated. To be honest, I doubt that it would be provable in any way related to humans because we are so independent.

Dr. Easter's comment is one that I have heard of before, but likewise unable to be proven. It is based on the fact that diabetics have higher levels of CVD than non diabetics, and the thought is that high glucose levels from diabetes is the cause of this.

Almost all dietary research is pretty nebulous, as all of it has been retrospective and not capable of being verified as to what individuals eat. Medicine has for the longest time tried to compare groups (ie why do orientals have lower CVD rates that western europeans?) but we didn't generally consider that we are talking about areas that may have different genetic predispositions... and most of it is monitoring disease progression or chemical markers because a study that takes 50-60 years to mature is pretty difficult to do.

I think the whole vegetarian diet issue is like this; next to impossible to really prove much impact.

I will say that most vegans I have met are pretty unhappy people, but then so are most folks who indulge in anything excessively.

I believe I will have a beer, maybe excessively
this post has become very hard on the eyes

My Rudy's BBQ T-Shirt says it all:

"I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!"

Grumulkin, how long have you been a vegetarian? Why did you become one? Did you hunt before you were a vegetarian?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The medical research that is out there now shows a correlation between elevated cholesterol and triglycerides and an increased risk of heart disease.

Just enjoy a couple of glasses of red wine with your steak and you are set. And less chance of heart disease as well.

"Two glasses of wine a day could help heart attack patients live LONGER

Heart attack patients who drink wine are less likely to suffer another episode"


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/hea...ml?ito=feeds-newsxml

Bottom line is that agriculture, and especially modern, industrial agriculture, is infinitely more deleterious to the environment than hunting or animal husbandry.

Ivan,

You are such a trouble maker. Look what you started!

There's a problem with much of the research that's been mentioned here. A fundamental problem.

What may be true as an average means nothing in the individual case.

Therefore, it's a mistake to generalize about this as if everyone is making a mistake to eat meat or certain amounts of fat.

I've got a father in his mid '90s and my wife's parents lived into their mid and late '90s and grew up on farms where every form of fatty content you can imagine was eaten in "mass quantities".

The problem you run into in that age group is that the body tends to outlast the mind. Dementia to some degree and generalized muscle weakness (including congestive heart failure) is the usual deal. And not heart attacks from clogged arteries.

But, behind this door, I know a life long vegetarian who wound up because of it in a nursing home in her 60s, and isn't going to make it.

Don't over generalize is my message and assume the research proves we all should be vegetarians. We weren't given predators' forward looking eyes, digestive system, claws in the form of nails, canine like bicuspids, brain and other things for nothing.

I'm not going to give it up, at least as long as the gov't allows me to eat meat. And like a lot of other former privileges, I'm convinced its another domino that will fall or right that will be taken from us. Everything else is going, why not that too?

Btw, I passed my last treadmill stress test and the old colon "procedure" with flying colors and have no sign of diabetes either, which "on paper" should be REALLY surprising since I've spent my whole life gobbling down every BBQ and sugar treat I can get my hands on.

I say it comes down to individual genetics far more than ANYTHING else.

quote:

"I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!"

Amen to that!!

I would like to divert from the thread jacking and get back on subject for at least one post.

Lets travel just west and a bit north of Lubbock for a second. Lets say you drive down 4th street toward levelland. The greatest thing you will notice is that everywhere there ISN'T a plowed tract of land there are literally millions, yes millions, of prairie dog mounds. Can you imagine the daily chemical and biological warfare that goes on to keep those rodents out of the farmers fields? Lets just say each farmer will put a slaughter house to shame.

Now lets move on to the fall and winter months in that one area around Lubbock. Has anyone noticed all the sandhill cranes and Canadian geese? Lets suffice it to say there are hundreds of thousands. Do you think the local peanut farmers welcome those sandhill crane? I can assure that none of the farmers do. In the SE NM area the local dairy farmers welcome anyone willing to help them to lay waste to the local populations. In addition here in SE NM any remaining snow geese left in the farmers fields after feb. 15 are removed from normal protection by the dept of game and fish. I've personally killed over 400 snow geese with 15 shots between me and 3 buddies in less than 30 seconds of shooting. That's how thick they get.

Lets now look at the other aspect. In that picture you will see the edges of the farmers fields. Where these fields meet you will ofter find very small patches of weeds. Guess what lives in these weeds? You guessed it, deer! Can you imagine how many more deer would be in these areas if there were more cover? Im no biologist but I've seen the populations around Lubbock as compared to those around Post and Lamesa and I'm pretty sure the farmers are keeping them thinned out in order to protect their bottom line.

Lastly lets look at the varmints. Its a well known fact that any self respecting redneck hates most varmints. those flat fields make it awfully easy to spot your local varmint and I bet there would be a lot less if those fields weren't there. I could go on but the point has been made. I also concede that some people are vegetarians because they think its healthier. I wont go into my personal experiences with body building but I can assure you that I've done, and on occasion still "do", your vegetarian diet. The end result is that the "stomper" on a vegetarian diet is honestly only capable of half the feats of the "stomper" off the vegetarian diet. That's personal experience speaking which Im sure all vegetarians will deny but that is your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:
Grumulkin, how long have you been a vegetarian? Why did you become one? Did you hunt before you were a vegetarian?

As a child, my mother was a vegetarian. My father was Norwegian. There are two foods holy to Norwegians. If you need to entertain a Norwegian and have only those two foods, you are good to go for breakfast, lunch and dinner; they are fish and potatos. I guess what I am saying, my father wasn't always vegetarian though he didn't eat all that much flesh food. In my childhood, I went years as a vegetarian and sometimes digressed but have been solely vegetarian for about 45 years. I became a vegetarian because it's healthier.

I was allowed to get a BB gun around age 14 and was instructed not to shoot anything; yea right. I shot stuff with sling shots and a bow and arrow before my BB gun so I guess I was a hunter long before I became solely vegetarian. Though my parents weren't antigun, they had no interest in them or hunting so what I learned about guns and hunting I learned from Outdoor Life, Field & Stream and Sports Afield which were MUCH better publications in those days. As a teenager, I taught myself reloading on the kitchen table with a Lee Loader; all by myself and unsupervised of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

As a child, my mother was a vegetarian. My father was Norwegian. There are two foods holy to Norwegians. If you need to entertain a Norwegian and have only those two foods, you are good to go for breakfast, lunch and dinner; they are fish and potatos. I guess what I am saying, my father wasn't always vegetarian though he didn't eat all that much flesh food. In my childhood, I went years as a vegetarian and sometimes digressed but have been solely vegetarian for about 45 years. I became a vegetarian because it's healthier.

I was allowed to get a BB gun around age 14 and was instructed not to shoot anything; yea right. I shot stuff with sling shots and a bow and arrow before my BB gun so I guess I was a hunter long before I became solely vegetarian. Though my parents weren't antigun, they had no interest in them or hunting so what I learned about guns and hunting I learned from Outdoor Life, Field & Stream and Sports Afield which were MUCH better publications in those days. As a teenager, I taught myself reloading on the kitchen table with a Lee Loader; all by myself and unsupervised of course.

What animals do you hunt? What do you do with the game animals you shoot?

I struggle to understand how people can hunt game animals but not eat game meat. Many of our clients eat meat but wont touch game meat.

IT CAN BE SCIENTIFICLY PROVEN THAT VEGANS AND VEGETARIANS ARE THE CRUELEST PEOPLE ON EARTH

1.THEY WILL TAKE A LIVE CARROT AND COOK IT IF IT HAD A VOICE IT WOULD HAVE SCREAMED LIKE A CRAYFISH

2.IF THE GOOD LORD DID NOT WANT US TO EAT MEAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE LET IT TASTE SO NICE

I am just damn glad Sullivan is not a vegan.

I had a copy of a billboard in my office for years. The billboard was for a restaurant in Canada. Showed a picture of a moose and then said, "There's plenty of room for all God's creatures. Right next to the mashed potatoes."

As usual, by the time I get around to reading an interesting thread most of what needs to be said has been said.

I come from a farm family and still serve as cheap labor for my brother when he can find me. I also hunt & fish.

Thus,I have limited contact with Vegan/Vegetarians we are after all natural adversaries.

I have noticed that most if not all the PETA types claim to be veggies and environmentalists. They don't wear leather or wool, so that leaves them choices of cotton & synthetics, still use electricity and drive vehicles. Yet, they deny their huge carbon footprint.

Vegies, Tree & Bunny huggers all claim the moral/ superior high ground by embracing Organic food. How mistaken they are. There is no credible scientific basis that organic food is healthier than conventional farmed food. There is no credible scientific study that proves organic farming is better for the environment than conventional farming. Modern farming practices, Fed & State EPA requirements, USDA toxicology requirements ensure that food landing on your table is safe. They insist everything be organic. Organic or conventional farming still requires petroleum products. Some of the organic approved pesticides or more harmful than EPA approved pesticides used conventionally. Manure is a wonderful soil supplement & fertilizer if managed properly. However, mishandled nitrates and phosphates leach out of the soil and into ground water.

Organic Farming is much costlier than conventional farming and only the elitist vegies, tree & bunny huggers can afford their food.

The U.S. let alone the rest of the world could not be fed and clothed relying solely on organic farming practices.

Vegies, Tree & Bunny Huggers are the same as religious fanatics. Facts do not matter only their belief. Nor do they believe their Environmental Footprint is as much or more detrimental than conventional lifestyle.

I am in my 60's, enjoy good health, eat a well balanced diet meat & fish that I catch, beef, pork, chicken, potatoes, real vegetables, milk, butter on bread, and good coffee. Enjoy an occasional heart healthy glass of red wine, and good single malt scotch.

I leave it to forum members to judge who has made the better life choices.

I had a difficult situation on hand recently when my four year old daughter came home one weekend and told me that she didn't want to eat meat because a boy in her class said that meat was "yucky." I did not know what to do because I did not see any point in blaming a child of her age for what his vegan idiot parents had taught him. I requested advice from friends and cooked up a nice meal for her with a generous dose of red meat. She was quickly cured of any vegan delusions that she might have had. She now thinks that her class friend is "silly," and that works.

Incidentally, I wasn't the only parent who complained to the school about what that poor boy had been going around saying - his parents had probably told him to tell his friends this. Vegans are a fanatical bunch in promoting their weird diet and lifestyle.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
What animals do you hunt? What do you do with the game animals you shoot?

I struggle to understand how people can hunt game animals but not eat game meat. Many of our clients eat meat but wont touch game meat.

I will hunt any game or nuisance animal and I give the meat away. So far, I've hade no takers for crow, raccoon or groundhog meat.

I actually struggle to understand how people will eat meat out of a store and will refuse to eat deer meat which, comparatively speaking, is probably better for you. My wife is one of those.

quote:

I became a vegetarian because it's healthier.

Grumulkin,

I have been doing a low carb high protein diet that includes meat vegetables and some fruit for quite some time.

Want to make a bet on who's got better blood chemistry? Me or the average vegetarian.

My total Cholesterol is under 140.

LDL under 70

HDL over 50

Trygylcerides under 80

It doesn't matter if you are a vegetarian if you eat a bunch of breads and and pasta and rice and potatoes it still turns to sugar in your system and it still makes you diabetic and it still sky rockets your cholesterol.

There are plenty of over weight vegetarians out there with heart disease.

My lovely wife tells everyone that after a bit of a vegetarian lifestyle, one's eyes move to the side of one's head. and you become prey.

quote:

I will hunt any game or nuisance animal and I give the meat away. So far, I've hade no takers for crow, raccoon or groundhog meat.

Raccoon is quite good. And as for crow, I don't have to hunt those. I get served enough of that as it is at home now...

Traveled with a group of Janes' vegetarians once. No meat and nothing that grows below the ground can be eaten.

They brought their own chef along who was as dirty as a warthog wallow. By the looks of it they enjoyed whatever he tossed together.

Good thing about that trip: the most biltong I have ever had from 30 hotel breakfast packs.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
Ivan,

You are such a trouble maker. Look what you started!

Exactly my thoughts.

sorry
it was meant in light humor as many of the vegetarians and vegans that i know or speak to act like their lifestyles have no impact on the earth .....yet all wear cotton....

perhaps we can discuss my point that the earth is not your mother

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
perhaps we can discuss my point that the earth is not your mother

Do we have to sit in a Lotus position and hum while doing it?

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

How many members of the wildlife population do you think are allowed to live within those thousands of acres of crop land. That land at one time supported thousands of buffalo Prong horn and deer, not to mention all the smaller wildlife including ground nesting birds, and rabbits, and prairie dogs, that were wiped out by the clearing of thousands of square miles of the panhandle of Texas to feed people as far away as China!

Vegan means "Piss poor hunter" and anyone who thinks people are not supposed to eat meat is simply a fool. We are omnivores not herbivores! Sensible intake of meat IS healthy, when supplemented with a balance of vegetable and grain matter! What you eat is not the problem but the ratio of amounts and mix of all types of foods being the key.

..............................................................................

quote:

What you eat is not the problem but the ratio of amounts and mix of all types of foods being the key.

You're pretty smart for an old guy!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

What you eat is not the problem but the ratio of amounts and mix of all types of foods being the key.

You're pretty smart for an old guy!

I don't know about the smart part, but I am old for sure!

....................................................................... Born in the late 1930s in the hill country of Texas. I ain't ah fixin to git no younger neither Son.

I was sitting at a dinner table at the Kasane River Lodge a few years back. The servers brought over a plate of Impala. The tree hugger across from me freaked out and said she was ok with eating beef but she couldn't eat the impala because she saw so many that day and photographed them. Her husband told her to shut up and eat it. The quote of the night was when she said "she tried to be a vegetarian once but she kept passing out". If the impala wasn't so good I would have spit it out from laughing so hard.

Grmulkin : thanks for the aerial photo, it brings back many memories. I worked at the PPG plant till it closed and was sent to Penna. I have spent many hours at the track pictured watching the trotters and especially the pacers practicing. Had a good friend whose horse won 'The Little Brown Jug'. I lived right up the hill from the track. As I say many memories ago,but certainly fond ones. People who worry about diet should have my problem. I am diabetic so Carbs are restricted,have a heart abnormality so they restrict fats and have kidney disease so proteins are verboten. Doesn't leave a huge selection, but you come to love steamed vegetables. I have absolutely nothing against any vegetarian I have ever known and admire them mostly because of their dedication. As I said originally I know no 'normal' vegans just people with weird outlooks. As far a 'mother' earth my mother was the 'salt of the earth' but she was a flesh and blood Southern Baptist and I can guarantee she never saw a meat OR vegatable she didn't like. I actually even know some Ohioian's that eat groundhog though I think they would draw the line on crow. When in gunsmith school in Colorado I did once TRY jack rabbit but it was such a mouthfull I never tried the second bite.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

I became a vegetarian because it's healthier.

Grumulkin,

I have been doing a low carb high protein diet that includes meat vegetables and some fruit for quite some time.

Want to make a bet on who's got better blood chemistry? Me or the average vegetarian.

My total Cholesterol is under 140.

LDL under 70

HDL over 50

Trygylcerides under 80

It doesn't matter if you are a vegetarian if you eat a bunch of breads and and pasta and rice and potatoes it still turns to sugar in your system and it still makes you diabetic and it still sky rockets your cholesterol.

There are plenty of over weight vegetarians out there with heart disease.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

I became a vegetarian because it's healthier.

Grumulkin,

I have been doing a low carb high protein diet that includes meat vegetables and some fruit for quite some time.

Want to make a bet on who's got better blood chemistry? Me or the average vegetarian.

My total Cholesterol is under 140.

LDL under 70

HDL over 50

Trygylcerides under 80

It doesn't matter if you are a vegetarian if you eat a bunch of breads and and pasta and rice and potatoes it still turns to sugar in your system and it still makes you diabetic and it still sky rockets your cholesterol.

There are plenty of over weight vegetarians out there with heart disease.

+1

Mine ...

Trigs 102
HDL 77
LDL 99

I eat Paleo/Primal (Lots of veggies/protein, no grains, fruit around workouts, nuts, seeds, and lots of bacon ) I also do Crossfit that probably accounts for the high HDL.

Genetics affect lipid profiles as well but my numbers were never this good when I raced bicycles and ate everything put in front of me.

You can't exercise off bad food habits.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Humans are not ruminants like Cape buffalo - which have special facilities to extract protein and other nutrients from plant material.

creatures like Horses,Zebra,Elephants,Rhino,Hippopotamus,.. are non-ruminant.
Yet those non-ruminant herbivores develop & maintain muscle mass whilst gaining their nutrition from plant material.