I have been having fun with the 458 Lott that JudgeG gave me. I bought some Hornady Custom 500gr round nose soft points and sighted it in this past weekend. To my surprise it groups these rounds at about an inch at 100 yds. Just wondering if anyone has used this bullet on buffalo, and if so how do they hold up?? Hornady also makes a solid, and I have ordered some of them. I would like to try the Federals but the a almost twice the price of the Hornadys and no one has them in stock. As always any opinions are appreciatted.

if your going to go buffalo hunting....you should be using the best bullets that you can possibly find......the bullet is by far the cheapest part of the hunt but one of the most important.

hornadys are fine for small or north american stuff but i have seen far to many failures to trust hornady for anything but thin skin game.


for your 458 try.......barnes.....norfolk......woodleigh.....swift......if you cant find a bullet that shoots out of this selection throw the gun away.

Dale : Read the hunting report by Terry Carr. There's an anectdote there regarding Hornady bullets and buffalo. Not very good news I'm afraid, same for the new Hornady solids. I'm sure some folks here in the know will post on the solids, but they are not as good as the old ones. If you don't handload, I recommend you give Superior Ammo a call and sace the Hornadys for practice. jorge

The Hornadys' are great for practice, however, I don't know if I would trust them with buffalo or not. The Hornady Custom ammo you have there is it with the new Interbond bullet. It is suppose to be a chemically bonded bullet and I wonder how this bullet performs on buffalo myself.

1115, www.gunbroker.com has dnrsports.com currently offering, for one more day, Remington 458 win Mag 450gr Swift A-frame loads for $63.34. I just bought a couple of years worth. Haven't looked at the Lotts.

Heading to the Selous in 14 days. Buffalo is on the list. I'll be using Hornady 500 grs. interbond and FMC in my Lott. I'll let you know when I'm back.

I use Swift A Frames and Hornady solids. No complaints about either.

John LaSala at www.safariarms.com has a good reputation and loads the Lott commercially with Barnes bullets (or whatever bullet you want). The prices range from about $68 to $78 @ 20. I've used them in Africa and they worked just fine... as Barnes are prone to do.

Here are pics of the 500 grain 458 Interbond fired at less than 2,400 fps into five gallon water buckets.

Bullets tested in 5 gallon nylon buckets correlates 90-95% for weight retention and expansion of the same bullets on buffalo.

Bottom view:



Top view:



Only 360 grains retained weight.

Mashed flat and fractured.

Use at your own risk.

Andy

Andy, do you have any info on what that Hornady soft point 458 does at 2200 fps (win mag vel)?

This from my post Two Buffalo Charges

Craig Boddington and several other hunters were in the Mururu Camp of Dande North, along with a three film crews which were videoing the hunts for the TV show Track Across Africa. We talked to PH Mike Payne, the client (Mike Schoby of Gander Mountain) and Tim Danklef (who was videoing the hunt and is also Chifuti Safaris' booking agent). It seems Schoby had shot a buffalo with his .416 Rigby. The shot was well placed but did not penetrate well. Schoby was using a new bullet being developed by Hornady (Steve Hornady was one of the other hunters in camp who was having his hunt filmed for the TV show). It appears that the bullet was too soft and expanded too quickly and did not penetrate very deeply. This was confirmed when they used the same bullet on a bush pig a couple of days after the shot on the buffalo. Immediately after Schoby's shot, they followed up on the wounded buffalo. They were charged and apparently it was quite a mess (fortunately no one was hurt). Danklef said he got most of it on the video, so watch for it to be broadcast on the Tracks Across Africa show.

They said it was the Interbond bullet, but I was under the impression that it was a bullet in development (maybe they were developing it for .416 caliber).

Regards,

Terry

The two buffalo I killed were both shot with Swift A Frames, and the bullets did an excellent job. I shot both of them with a 375 H&H. I was curious about the Hornady Interlock rounds, and hadn't seen much here about them. Too bad they don't get better reviews, because the Lott that I have really likes them. I will "buy and try" some custom ammo with premium bullets until I find the magic load. I will however, look forward to the report from Texas Hunter on his experience with the Hornady loads in Tanzania soon.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Andy, do you have any info on what that Hornady soft point 458 does at 2200 fps (win mag vel)?

Steve,

Since it is expensive and time consuming to recover bullets in this way, I did not waste my time or money testing bullets that did not pass the first test at point blank range.

My article on premium 458's will be published in African Hunter, but you all can save yourself the trouble and just buy North Forks.

A 400 grain North Fork at >2,700 fps retains more weight and frontal area than a 500 grain Interbond at <2,400 fps.

Considering this is comparing a SD 272 with SD 340 thats saying something!

If you just have to have a 500 grain soft point try the Swift, Kodiak, and Woodleigh PP in that order.

But Id rather have a 450 grain NF.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Here are pics of the 500 grain 458 Interbond fired at less than 2,400 fps into five gallon water buckets.

Bullets tested in 5 gallon nylon buckets correlates 90-95% for weight retention and expansion of the same bullets on buffalo.

Bottom view:



Top view:



Only 360 grains retained weight.

Mashed flat and fractured.

Use at your own risk.

Andy

Wow Andy that's dissapointing. I thought the Interbonds were going to be a good product and improvement over the old RN's. Thanks for the data.

450 and 400 grain North Fork from 450 Dakota at point blank range into buffalo.



Velocity 2,550 and 2,700 fps.

Andy

I killed a buffalo in June with the interbonds from a .458 Lott. Though the buff only went about 80 yards and was down for good with no second shot needed. The bullet came apart to the point where the skinners and meat cutters could not find any evidence of it other than a couple very small copper fragments. I'm sticking with Barnes.

I have had multiple bullet failures using the Interbond (30 caliber) on thin skinned game (whitetails). I would not even consider loading and using them on plains game let alone dangerous game.

Douglast, which 30 cal were you shooting? thanks

/

Alf,

A conventional cup and draw jacket can certainly be made to hold up to an impact velocity of 2,400 fps.

In fact it can hold up to 3,400 fps with 90% weight retention on the largest North American elk or bison.

(Try shooting a 140 grain 7mm or 180 grain .308 Bitterroot at this velocity and you will see what I mean).

I am being blunt about the Hornady because I know a bullet of much less than SD .340 can hold up to much higher velocity. Steve Hornady served on the NRA board with Bill Steigers for many years, and Mr. Hornady knows this too!

Here is a 450 grain and 500 grain 458 Kodiak at 2550 fps and 2400 fps with retained weight of 440-456 grains.



This is a conventional cup and draw jacket and not half the bullet a Bitterroot is.

Using a solid base like TBBC and Rhino is no guarantee of success either.



This is the Trophy Bonded Speer.

And this is the 485 grain Rhino which has a very narrow velocity envelope due to its use of a realtively brittle untapered jacket.



As someone who has been using bonded bullets since 1978, I will tell you a little secret. To make a good bonded bullet, first you have to make a good conventional bullet. And then bond it.

If you just bond a bullet to a varmit jacket, all you get is a bonded varmit bullet.



Here is a picture of a 510 grain Winchester RN Power Point. It held up just fine (336 grains) and penetrated 1/3 more than the Hornady Interbond. The PP has a thick, ductile brass jacket with a coating of copper. At least .049 inch thick at heel. Its a good conventional bullet and would be a great bullet bonded.

As to the water buckets, the nylon bucket plays an important part in deforming the bullet. Just shooting into a water tank over expands a bullet considerably. IWBA has good data on this.



It was just dumb luck that the nylon buckets reduce the frontal area to that of bullets recovered from game, but it really does correlate across a wide velocity range from sub-sonic 9mm HP's to Mach 3 FMJ's.

The fact so many of us here are hearing complaints about the large caliber Interbond's is yet more proof that this simple method of testing bullets is a quick, inexpensive, consistant, and valid way to evaluate your hunting ammo prior to going in harms way.

Andy

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
ANDY:

Your observation on the Hornady bullet comes as no surprize in fact it is predicatable. What I find interesting though is the attempts at comparison by some between the NF and the Hornady.

IMO there cannot be a valid comparison as the two bullet types Hornady vs NF are fundamentaly two differing entities.

This is ridiculous. They are both designed to shoot buffalo, but one does it better than the other.

Alf,

Take a look at the 400 grain North Fork in my previous post. This was 2750 fps with a SD 272 bullet at point blank range into a buffalo.

Note the lead is bonded right up to the tip of the meplat.

Andy

I had a client headed off on a Buffalo hunt. He was concerned about using the Hornady Bullet. Hornady said it would be ok.

Guess what ... hornady did not pick up the trophy fee for his wounded Buffalo that they never found. I talked to the ph later, he said is was a very good shot. This was with a 458 Lott.

Now, one story does not constitute conclusive evidense. Many similar stories should cause concern.

A Hornady bullet will kill a Buffalo, but how often will it be insufficient? A bit too often for me to ever shoot a Buff with it.

Bullets are cheap, safaris are expensive.

Don't skimp.

Gentlemen,

I have shot the .375 300 gr. HRN RNSP old style and Interbond into a dirt backstop and recovered some bullets. These left the muzzle at ~2265 fps. if my Chrony is correct (starting load) and hit the dirt at 100 yds. Retained weight of both bullet types was essentially the same but each type shed weight in a very different manner. The old style RNSP lost weight by smearing and tearing, some of the lead core was retained in the copper jacket. The IBs that I recovered fractured similarly to the one Mr. Andy fired into water buckets, the IBs broke into pieces. The jacket material of the IB is definitely not the same as the old style RNSP and appears to be brass. Maybe Hornady is using too brittle of a jacket material for the Interbond?

Was sorting out some ammo for Mike Payne ( the PH Terry commented on) yesterday and he breaks into a cold sweat at the mention of Hornady softs. The buff that kncoked him down was the third he has faced this year, and the second caused by insufficient penetration from a Hornady soft. On the buff that hit him, the bullet slipped in just behind the shoulder, went through the rib and just into the lung. Buff had plenty of fight an hour later.

Funny enough the old Hornady FMJ .458 solids have a superb reputation, holding up better at weatherby velocities than many of the monometal bullets on elephant.

Hornady bullets have been a disappointment also for two friends of mine. they went in Zimbabwe some year ago, and one of them was using a .375 HH, the other one was using .458 Win, both used Hornady bullets. They had an immediate bad impact when Valentino, the one who shoot the .375 HH, hit very well a wildebeest, that dropped in its tracks. Some minutes later, when the group was greeting with Valentino, the wildebeest slowly and laboriously stood up. In spite of the incredulity, Vale shot again, put it down, but again after a pair of minutes it stand up another time.
The third shot in the neck closed the incredible sequence. the first two shots pulverized at the impact, causing a wide hematoma and some superficial wound.
The same happened on buffalo with both calibers. Bullets were fragile.

Alf,

I tried to send you a pm but apparently you do not accept them. Re: Hornady Interbond, I'm leaving for Tanzania in eleven days. I'll be carrying a .458 Lott with hornady Interbonds and FMJs. Do you have personal knowledge of buffs shot with the .458 Lott using the interbond load? I plan to follow up with the FMJs which apparently have a very good reputation.

Thanks

So far I've come to consider only a few bullets as candidates for any hunt that has game bigger than mule reer involved or costs more than a few hundred dollars.

TBBC
Northfork
A-Frame
Woodleigh

Even Nosler don't make my list as good as they are and as many fans as they have.

Hornady interlocks are great for deer and pronghorns but that's as far as I go with them.

I shot my .458 Lott today using the Hornady Custom ammo mentioned above. They were loaded using the new Interbond bullets and all I found were fragments also. These bullets didn't hold up well at all. I am looking to reload later on but wonder what is the best commercial ammo available to .458 Lott users. What about A-Square's Dead Tough bullet? I can order that ammo off of Midway USA's site.

Here are a couple photos of a Hornaday .458 bullet fired through my Lott. It was a 500 grain Interboond. I purchased one box so I could have somthing to shoot while I was back ordered on reloading dies. The bullets did not hold up well. And one of the 20 rounds did not fire. Good hit on the primer but no ignition.
The bullets were dug out fo the bank behind the target.

Here are two Barnes 500 grain TSX bullets recovered from the same dirt bank. The left bullet wieghs 491.2gr and the right weighs 488.4gr. The target is a 3 shot 100 yard group with 350gr Barnes X bullets affter I bed my rifle. I know that a hard Arizona Dirt bank is not the optimumum test medium but it shows how weak the Hornaday is to the Barnes.

[URL= ]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n141/wjbarks/Barnes500grTSX2.jpg"> ]

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Douglast, which 30 cal were you shooting? thanks

Steve,

The failures (plural) came with 180 gr Interbonds on a 300 WSM. The loads chonographed at 2,950-3,000 ft/s.

Doug

Douglast, thanks for the input. What I am wondering is --do the Hornady's perform poorly at all velocities, or only at maximum for caliber velocity? Obviously the 458 Lott and the 300 magnums are in the poor performing group, but we haven't heard from shooters regarding Interbonds and non-high-velocity rounds. My 458 win is in the shop for stock work for a few weeks, but I just got some 375H&H Hornady's in the post today, and will try to find a dirt bank in which to shoot them tomorrow for some more work on the subject.

Steve,

I don't know what to tell you about the IB's performance at other velocities. The failures I have seen on animals look a lot like the ones shown above on "phantoms." The bullets just separate apart and do not deliver any real penetration. These have come on shoulder shots to whitetail deer.

My recommendation would be to look for another bullet to shoot. Several proven alternatives have been mentioned above. I surely would not want to wound an animal and have it run off leaving me with a $2k (or more) hole in my pocket because the bullet didn't do its job! As I said before, I quit using the IBs on thin skinned game. Personnaly, they would not be in my list for DG.

Doug

From field reports, like many noted above, it seems clear that Hornady is moving backwards in terms of its bullet designs.

They used to make a great steel jacketed solid. Now they're apparently using a brittle brass alloy for their solid bullet jackets. I have heard several reports of these solids failing. Apparently they bend and then break up.

Several years ago, I killed a buff using the old 500 grain Hornady Interlock bullet in .458 Lott. That bullet worked beautifully. It killed as well as my Woodleighs, and it was just a cup and core bullet with a locking spline inside the jacket.

Now the new and "improved" Interbond soft points have replaced the Interlocks, and are over expanding and fracturing.

Doesn't Hornady appreciate that the .458 Lott is a dangerous game round, and that they are putting human lives at risk by offering these sub-par bullets?

Needless to say, I would not use a Hornady bullet on dangerous game.

MR: If you read Terry Carr's hunting report, you'll see where the Hornady failed on Steve Hornady himself and on buffalo to boot! I agree with your observations regarding Hornadys. I've managed to hoard a stash of old fashioned solids in 416, 375 & 458 myself.
Speaking of poorly made bonded bullets, a friend of mine who used to post here just had abysmal performance with Nosler Accubonds out of his 338 in Africa. He had them fail on the shoulder of a bushbuck of all things! I've learned my lesson, A Frames, North Forks or TSXs for me and when all else fails, Partitions. jorge

.......

quote:

and when all else fails, Partitions.

Jorge,
Now you're talking!

Rich Elliott

William,

The Dead Tough is the most expensive bonded bullet made.

If it was also the best Id say buy it, but it is in fact one of the worst.

Stick with North Fork, old TBBC, Swift, Kodiak, Woodleigh PP in that order. (The new Trophy Bonded Speer does not look good).

You can order the North Fork as easily as the Dead Tough or Hornady from Midway.

http://www.northforkbullets.com/

They usually arrive in a couple of days.

Andy