BENGO- wish there was space in your camp in BK, I would be joining! Been talking with Beibs and Arjun...no space by the time I checked in!!
This is still a good hunt for a good price...and I need some of the trophies to finish an award!!...so there are compromises, EH!!
Wishing you a Great HUNT, I will be waiting for a report.....
If there is a cancellation....you know the drill!!....moments notice for me OK!!
Cheers,

Beretta- you have got that right...I broker those BIG TOYS, big holes in the water in which to dump money....I am down in Kona feeding a couple of them as we speak!!...and fuel at $5/g, I can remember my early years topping off with diesel at $0.13/g...pocket change to serious stuff, in only a few years, recently!!
Boats themselves aren't going up at that rapid pace...it's all the hangers on stuff that drives it up....and lures $100-150 each...WOW!!
That said, truly when you are into these big boats....you do get money back at the end...not like a safari....selling the boat!!
Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
Mike,

I agree on the companion rates peeve. I have wanted to bring my wife several times but refuse to pay more for her to tag along than a night at the Victoria Inn. I took her to Hawaii instead--it was cheaper.

Yep, see you in Burkina in February.

Is $300/night for an observer too much in a wilderness area? What's the limit?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
Mike,

I agree on the companion rates peeve. I have wanted to bring my wife several times but refuse to pay more for her to tag along than a night at the Victoria Inn. I took her to Hawaii instead--it was cheaper.

Yep, see you in Burkina in February.

Is $300/night for an observer too much in a wilderness area? What's the limit?

The limit is when the observer wants to consume all your fine Whisky and shoot a bunch of game.

Joking aside most will embraced a wife or kid into the daily rate.

And a hunting observer is a good deal all round.

Agree with Andrew,

Depending on the intentions of the observer, they more than always will just fall part of the Hunters day rates at no additional charge,
I know many Tanzania outfitters, who will just charge the Government tourist fees for an observer and waver the rest,

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
On your question on size

Yes we run basically a over 40" Buffalo

and under 40" Buffalo but the principle I wanted to get across that we do give back to the hunter stays the same.

Again this is just in South Africa in Tanzania and other countries that are dollar based all our hands are tied,

JK

Sir, so a 42" Buff and a 46" Buff will cost the same price with you?

And I know there are not many in the Lowveld, but what would a 60" Kudu bull cost on one of your concessions....to an outfitter?

The sad thing, as Phillip rightly pointed out, demand creates the supply and price. I have guided 4 AR members on Kudu on our main area (20,000 acres) in the last 4 years. One 60"(LEE), One 57"(Terry) and two 56"(Joel and Al). Tim Herald was witness to the magnificent bulls our mountains hold. This landowner, who is a good friend of mine, said that he was offered $5,000.00 per animal for ALL the bulls on his land (and they come and go) for 2014. I cannot hunt one of them unless I match the price.

Good news is there are still some good Kudu places in our area that charges (IMO) a fair price, but it is up from the last three years.

And it is not only greed dear friends. Some of the arguments carry weight. Why pay $5,000.00 for a Sable? Because of it's protected status? It is not any more! a Big Kudu bull is just as majestic as a Big Sable bull, and forms part of the coveted spiral horned species.

The reality is that every first time hunter to Africa wants to kill a big kudu bull. Rightly so! It creates a massive demand, and therefore a hike in price.

I do think it is short term though, and will fall back to affordable prices when the demand drop due to high prices. That is the good thing about the South African system. Private ownership of the game dictates a free market system where the landowner and outfitter can NEGOTIATE a price. Government prices are a given...

Guys

Before everyone jumps on the outfitters & gives them too much shit, let's try to remember they're running a business that like all businesses everywhere in the world has ever increasing costs such as fuel, wages, anti poaching, taxes & vehicles etc to pay & if they want to stay in business all those costs have to covered in their business plan.

They can't go into a supermarket or a filling station & get some of what they need for nothing any more than anyone else can so if prices go up people will have to live with it & cut their cloth according to the budget available.

Like I said before, very few people indeed get rich from the hunting business alone.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Guys

Before everyone jumps on the outfitters & gives them too much shit, let's try to remember they're running a business that like all businesses everywhere in the world has ever increasing costs such as fuel, wages, anti poaching, taxes & vehicles etc to pay & if they want to stay in business all those costs have to covered in their business plan.

They can't go into a supermarket or a filling station & get some of what they need for nothing any more than anyone else can so if prices go up people will have to live with it & cut their cloth according to the budget available.

Like I said before, very few people indeed get rich from the hunting business alone.

+1

Hi Charl

Yes a 40.5" or a 46"+ buffalo are the same price, as you are hunting an open system all I guarantee is a 40"+ bull on a Trophy Buffalo hunt,

I have had a buffalo of over 47" shot every year so far, that is the luck of the Client and well done to the Outfitter for hunting hard and finding the Bull,

As for Kudu, I also just have 2 prices for the outfitters , under 55 and over,

Again these are 100 000 hectare areas and if you get your client a 60" bull well done to him,

no extra charge,

JK

STEVE
You are 100% correct my friend I spend A month every year IN THE STATES DOING 3 SHOWS SCI HSC DSC and let me tell you every year I Go MY cost between making the marketing materials paying for shows air fare and hotels tipping every taxi driver and on and on my expenses goes up more than 12 % a year

I appreciate the shows are good business and also a lot of fun but they're helluva expensive to do and that also has to go onto the running costs of the business as do so many other things such as insurance policies and pensions etc.

Phillip

This is one of the costs that hunting clients fail to appreciate even exist.

Attending the shows costs a VERY significant amount of money and those costs have to be divided by the number of hunting days one can sell there...... and those hunt ´donations' make it even more bloody expensive!

Steve However after it is all said and done it is still A good business, and it beets the hell out of sitting in some office somewhere!!!

I don't disagree with you mate but it's a very expensive business to be in & my point is that many people fail to appreciate the high prices one has to charge are mostly to pay costs (often including high Governmunt fees) rather than excessive profiteering.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Phillip

This is one of the costs that hunting clients fail to appreciate even exist.

Attending the shows costs a VERY significant amount of money and those costs have to be divided by the number of hunting days one can sell there...... and those hunt ´donations' make it even more bloody expensive!

One could also say the discounts given to outdoor writers/TV shows/booking agents has to have the same effect.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Phillip

This is one of the costs that hunting clients fail to appreciate even exist.

Attending the shows costs a VERY significant amount of money and those costs have to be divided by the number of hunting days one can sell there...... and those hunt ´donations' make it even more bloody expensive!

I have had one company tell me the SCI show and related costs ended up costing them $35,000.

The world & his dog from dodgy agents to film companies to hunters wanting to bring a non hunting observer that 'might want to hunt sometimes' all want freebies/favours/discounts & those additions all need to also be factored into the annual running costs of the business if the business is to survive in the long term.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:


I have had one company tell me the SCI show and related costs ended up costing them $35,000.

If you take several people, do all the shows, make a hunt donation or two & do the hospitality thing properly, the shows can very easily cost several times that amount.

Fairgame said:

"I always thought that Buffalo were way underpriced. A true in your face walk and stalk hunt is priceless. Especially in wild country where you stumble across Lion and other grim beasts in your path"

I certainly won't argue with you as I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If I decide to hunt buff one day, I will be giving you a call.

Your hunt reports on AR have been nothing short of amazing!

quote:

Is $300/night for an observer too much in a wilderness area? What's the limit?

If they are only "observing" then yes, I think its too much. If they want to shoot they no, not at all!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Phillip

This is one of the costs that hunting clients fail to appreciate even exist.

Attending the shows costs a VERY significant amount of money and those costs have to be divided by the number of hunting days one can sell there...... and those hunt ´donations' make it even more bloody expensive!

I have had one company tell me the SCI show and related costs ended up costing them $35,000.

That must be a small Company only

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
Fairgame said:

"I always thought that Buffalo were way underpriced. A true in your face walk and stalk hunt is priceless. Especially in wild country where you stumble across Lion and other grim beasts in your path"

I certainly won't argue with you as I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. If I decide to hunt buff one day, I will be giving you a call.

Your hunt reports on AR have been nothing short of amazing!

Thanks mate.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Is $300/night for an observer too much in a wilderness area? What's the limit?

If they are only "observing" then yes, I think its too much. If they want to shoot they no, not at all!

I'd say not necessarily.

If it's a true wilderness area then Govt fees of some kind are probably payable & the nearest shop could well be several hours drive away so every can of drink, fresh vegetable or bag of flour or sugar etc can cost several times the purchase price to get it there.

Just another of those costs I mentioned that a lot of people don't even consider.

At the risk of plugging my own book, some of you blokes need to read it to get an understanding of how the hunting safari industry really works & what life is like on the other side of the campfire!

Not to start throwing numbers around but I wish I could say it only cost $35 000 for that month on the road... However one or two really good safaris makes it all worth wile.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:


I have had one company tell me the SCI show and related costs ended up costing them $35,000.

If you take several people, do all the shows, make a hunt donation or two & do the hospitality thing properly, the shows can very easily cost several times that amount.

So the question is....is it worth it? Seems like a stupid amount of money to spend in hopes of making it back through bookings.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
So the question is....is it worth it? Seems like a stupid amount of money to spend in hopes of making it back through bookings.

Most years for most companies it is yes but not for all companies all years.

For example, the shows immediately after 9/11 were dreadfully unproductive for many companies.

Either way, the expenses have to be paid which again takes us back to those costs people don't appreciate but are still part of running the business.

It'd be a whole lot worse if PHs & Outfitters charged the same way doctors, lawyers or even mechanics did!

I'm sure the Safari business is not much different than mine in the sense that they can only charge what the market will bear. If prices are depressed, as most safari operators claim, they would be looking for ways to cut costs. I know I would. I'd think the operators with the best reputation would stay busier, while the questionable ones may not be as busy? Seems logical tome anyway.

JGRaider,

If it wasn't worth it nobody would go to the shows. The exposure for exhibitors at the shows, the face to face with clients and prospective clients for the exhibitors may be the most valuable part of the shows long term.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

And a hunting observer is a good deal all round.

Agreed!!

quote:

It'd be a whole lot worse if PHs & Outfitters charged the same way doctors, lawyers or even mechanics did!

Oh come on, Steve, for the sake of argument, sure they do. Just look at the current Dangerous Game daily rates, that are pretty standard in the African hunting industry, at $1250.00 per day. Now, go figure out the hourly rate on that number. Not a bad hourly rate, especially when you consider that you might actually hunt a total of 8-10 hours during a typical day, with all things taken into account. That equates to an hourly rate of between $125 to $150 an hour. That's much more than some attorneys, mechanics or even engineers charge. And, there are not too many doctors that'll charge you $1250 per visit, or even $125 or $150 for a simple, routine visit. And then when you figure in trophy fees on some of these animals, you're into the same costs as some surgeries or an entire litigation file from start through trial! Or, a new car! Hell, with Charl's latest revelation, one Kudu at 5K, would get you new teeth, hearing aids, some nice plastic surgery or an all expenses paid vacation to Europe! Just sayin. . . . . . . . . I think you all get my point: quit whining about how hard it is to make a living being a Professional Hunter. You chose to do what you do, just like the rest of us chose to do what we do. Just be careful about how you treat your clientele and how you propose and pass on costs because greed will ruin any business and it is so easy to spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

It'd be a whole lot worse if PHs & Outfitters charged the same way doctors, lawyers or even mechanics did!

Oh come on, Steve, for the sake of argument, sure they do. Just look at the current Dangerous Game daily rates, that are pretty standard in the African hunting industry, at $1250.00 per day. Now, go figure out the hourly rate on that number. Not a bad hourly rate, especially when you consider that you might actually hunt a total of 8-10 hours during a typical day, with all things taken into account. That equates to an hourly rate of between $125 to $150 an hour. That's much more than some attorneys, mechanics or even engineers charge. And, there are not too many doctors that'll charge you $1250 per visit, or even $125 or $150 for a simple, routine visit. And then when you figure in trophy fees on some of these animals, you're into the same costs as some surgeries or an entire litigation file from start through trial! Or, a new car! Hell, with Charl's latest revelation, one Kudu at 5K, would get you new teeth, hearing aids, some nice plastic surgery or an all expenses paid vacation to Europe! Just sayin. . . . . . . . . I think you all get my point: quit whining about how hard it is to make a living being a Professional Hunter. You chose to do what you do, just like the rest of us chose to do what we do. Just be careful about how you treat your clientele and how you propose and pass on costs because greed will ruin any business and it is so easy to spot.

UEG

A PH gets a salary which is a small PART of the daily rate NOT all of it & in fact, some tight fisted outfitters expect PHs, esp young ones to work for nothing but tip.

Then the PH is on duty & expected to whatever is necessary 24 hours a day, every day of the hunt. He'll be 1st up in the morning & last to bed in the evening. He'll supervise ALL the staff, including kitchen staff & meal planning & he'll also do the same with the skinners & related paperwork & trophy tagging & also make sure the tent staff etc are doing it all as they should. He'll also make sure vehicles are fuelled & maintained as they should be & all supplies are sufficient for camp needs plus a little more.

Most PHs will earn considerably less than $300 per day which working on 18 hours a day is about $18 per hour & he may well have to take vehicle expenses out of that.

He's also only earning on hunting days so come the closed season or breaks between safaris for that matter, he doesn't earn a cent.

Just commenting on your lawyer, doctor, mechanic statement, that's all! LOL! Calm down and take deep breaths! Oh shit, I forgot to factor in the tip! By the way, most of my PHs have had other business interests as well, in addition to their seasonal hunting pursuits.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Just commenting on your lawyer, doctor, mechanic statement, that's all! LOL! Calm down and take deep breaths! Oh shit, I forgot to factor in the tip!

Ja but going by some of the other attitudes here, some might just believe you!

I just love AR
The posts and arguments make this great

Steve: Many do believe me.

I have often wondered how an outfitter determined how many hunts he would sell. He has a fixed quantity and one would assume he has a known success rate. You would think he could then book only enough hunts to take off the quota allotted. Is this ,in fact how it works ,or does he sell as many as he can and hope for some additional failures. You would think that when there are a fixed number of animals available ,as I understand ,is the fact it would make little sense to attend conventions at great expense and offer hunts at total loss to sell something no one else can sell. I worked for 20 years for a concrete company that attended one convention yearly and that one only to see what new equipment was available NOT to sell concrete. Very little ,if ANY, 'selling' was ever done as the only place to buy commercial amounts of concrete company was at a concrete company. Our salesmen were basically order takers and consultants. In this day of the internet I would think that advertising to reach potential clients would be foremost in expenses, but then what do I really know I am only one of the customers. I will say that I have only attended one convention and that one I went to see the equipment and actually did not speak to a single outfitter. Since I still have the bag they gave me to collect things in I went thru it and found only 2 brochures from outfitters in it, so I didn't even take any brochures,but I glance at almost every ad in the SCI magazine and any other outdoor magazine I read. I wonder what the number is of people who hunt Africa but never attend any of the conventions. In the years I have hunted in Zimbabwe I have spent much more time visiting than hunting and have spent these hours observing the search for supplies,vehicles,fuel,camps and all the attendant things required to run a safari successfully. I think I DO understand the problems associated with operations. I just fail to understand the marketing of the commodity.

quote:

I have often wondered how an outfitter determined how many hunts he would sell. He has a fixed quantity and one would assume he has a known success rate. You would think he could then book only enough hunts to take off the quota allotted. Is this ,in fact how it works ,or does he sell as many as he can and hope for some additional failures.

Complex question. As far as I am concerned we divide our quota best we can into packages and sell accordingly thus maximising incomes from priority animals. However clients needs can be more specific and may incorporate two packages or rather two priority species e.g. Sable and Buffalo. The operator then has to determine whether it is financially viable to lump these species together or indeed does he set a higher rate for the privilege of hunting both?

I do not know an operator here who would sell what he has not got. This is a good and quick way to ruin your reputation. Especially here on AR

ele trophy fees just went up according to Zim parks a couple of grand for 2014.
Shit, there goes my Hawaii trip, Ha ha