Fairgame,

Just stating that leopards are special and should not be hunted with dogs is a weak argument. Please try to explain to us how they are any different than mountain lions, bears, coons or foxes that are hunted with dogs all the time.

What makes baiting more ethical than hunting with hounds? Other people have stated that in their opinion, baiting and sitting in the blind with a high power rifle and an advanced scope is not ethical. Why should their opinion be considered wrong?

As far as hounds making it easier for hunters to fill their quotas, the same applies for a vehicle and a rifle. Can a bow hunter without the use of a vehicle be as successful as a rifle hunter who uses a vehicle, in the same area?

Harris,

Hunting methods in America are considered traditional and I have no problem with that.

Africa is probably the sportsmans most desirable hunting destination as it offers the hunting of free ranging dangerous game. Our animals are without doubt some of the more glamorous on the planet and the hunting of them is an adventure and often a grim but exciting pursuit.

Safari hunting as we know it is traditionally done by the gun and we inherited this structure and the rules that dictate our sport. Countless words from Selous, Taylor, Hunter, Boddington (had to mention his name somewhere) and others have been written about it. Then we start pissing around with pointed sticks and hounds. Correct me if I am wrong but as a rifleman and a hunter are you not morally obliged to kill your animal quickly and efficiently. Dogs and arrows do neither.

A scope or any sight much increases (generally speaking)your ability to hit a target. Have yet to come across anybody who is willing to take a pot shot at a very expensive cat without them.

Baiting a clever and wary adult Tom on his own turf is bloody difficult and there are only a few PH's such as Hallimore, Sharpe etc who are expert at this and who can advertise high success rates on big trophy cats. To get any Leopard on bait is not too difficult but to invite a streewise cat to dinner is a huge acheivement. A good PH will always turn the odds in your favour but he will never offer you a guarentee. Afterall he has hunted leopard before.

The urgency and competitiveness of modern day hunting has made the use of vehicles and other tools necessary. If a hunter needs to fill his quota by hook or by crook then he has lost most of the plot.

I'm not a bowhunter and nor do I hunt with hounds (excepting having ridden to hounds in the UK) but FWIW, both methods have been used in Africa for many years.

Even the first white hunters used hounds from time to time and of course, the locals have been hunting like that since the year dot.

As far as bowhunting is concerned, research, specifically that done by Tony Thomkinson who them worked for KZN wildlife proved that bowhunting was just as effecient as, and caused less stress than riflehunting.

I for one will NOT use dogs to help shoot my Leopard but I will be happy to assist in setting a bait and building a blind to try and entice it to within a shootable position .
Whatever floats your boat is a saying Ive picked up on this sight .

Shakari,

My next client is going to be none to happy to find that I am backing him up with a piece of wood attached to some string.

Researchers have a habit of talking shit for a living.

The first and last time I guided a bow hunter he came away with a bushbuck from his very expensive Lion safari. I on the other hand had a great safari and shot a full bag of stuff he wounded. Must say he was a good sport and stuck to his bow. I on the other hand will stick to my guns.

Hard to understand how this topic generated such a high level of emotion, with its attendant name-calling.

If it's legal, and you want to do it, fine. If it's not legal, or you don't want to do it, don't do it.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Shakari,

My next client is going to be none to happy to find that I am backing him up with a piece of wood attached to some string.

Researchers have a habit of talking shit for a living.

The first and last time I guided a bow hunter he came away with a bushbuck from his very expensive Lion safari. I on the other hand had a great safari and shot a full bag of stuff he wounded. Must say he was a good sport and stuck to his bow. I on the other hand will stick to my guns.

Buddy,

sporthunting with a bow has absolutely nothing to do with using one as a back up weapon and assuming you're a PH, you should know that. Therefore, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The research I mentioned was done by Tony Thomkinson who is a very well known and very reputable PH of long standing. At the time, he did his research, he worked for KZN wildlife and was given the task of disproving or otherwise the game depts ban on bowhunting was justified.

He first spent considerable time in the gym etc and practicing until he had shoulder muscles that made him look like Quasimodo and then he went out and bow hunted 100 animals from the smallest to the very biggest and made detailed notes on every animal. Amongst the things he noted were exact arrow placement, signs of distress, time from impact to death and how far they went in that time. He then repeated the exact scenarios with a rifle.

The entire excercise took a considerable time and found that bowhunting was a perfectly effective and legitimate hunting method and consequently KZN cganged their game laws to accommodate bowhunting. Subsequently, many other game depts used the same research and reports to do the same.

Admittedly, some research and some researchers is/are as much use as a chocolate teapot....... but this research and researcher is 100% pure gold.

I'm personally not a bowhunter but don't have a problem at all with bowhunting.

I hear you. I think we have probably exhausted this topic?

I want to hear from some one who has hunted dg with a bow and screwed it up OOHHHH what we can't hear from him he's red gel now

Ok boys, I guess I'll throw my two cents worth in too!! First off, I know Mr. Baldry personally, and I have spent many nights around a Zambian camp fire with him. He's a quality guy with a great sense of humor, and frankly a very accomplished cat hunter. He guides frequently for Pro-Hunt Zambia, and runs his own hunts in Munyamadzi. Many of my clients have taken excellent lion & leopard with Andrew as the PH, and all have left camp wanting to hunt with Andrew again. Together we have spent numerous days trying to out smart the wary lions & leopards of the Lunga Luswishi block in the Kafue.

I for one have done at least 12 leopard hunts, mostly baiting, but one hound hunt too (I should clarify, I was NOT the shooter on the hound hunt, all the others, yes). Without question, the hunting of a big tom leopard by the baiting method is the true essence of a Leopard Hunt. Not that I don't think that hound hunting is grand sport, I do, I liked it, and I would do it again. But considering all the factors, getting a Big Tom to the bait, in daylight, without him knowing you're there, and shooting him, is an accomplishment above all others, IMO. Often times getting a Leopard to feed is not all that difficult, its the rest of it that makes taking one from a blind the largest of feats. A leopard which has recently fed from a bait, likely won't go far, and tracking them with hounds is rather easy! Really the hunt is watching the dogs, seeing them work, experiencing the excitement of the close encounter with an enraged cat, etc. Quite like it is with hunting Mtn Lion here in the states, except for Mtn Lions won't take bait, and they are VERY non-aggressive to people once they arrive at the tree, something I have experienced numerous times. The fact that Mtn Lions won't generally take a bait, is what makes the hunt for them much more difficult than leopard with hounds, not to mention, the terraing is rugged, and the conditions can be harsh, again IMO.

Leopards have an uncanny ability to figure out the program, and matching wits with them brings me great pleasure. Some of the things I have seen leopards do, the way they let you know, they know, you are there, its amazing!!! Although lion hunting is my favorite, I think the biggest accomplishment is shooting a big Tom Leopard, in daylight hours, from a blind. Just my humble opinion!!

Andrew, dogs for lion?? I'm with you, can't see that lasting long.

Thanks for your input Aaron. I was begining to think I was barking up the wrong tree.

The Kafue cats have to be some of the most impressive in Africa and the Leopard are truely monstrous. Doubt a pack of dogs would worry these toms, besides the tsetse would have them for breakfast.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Correct me if I am wrong but as a rifleman and a hunter are you not morally obliged to kill your animal quickly and efficiently. Dogs and arrows do neither.

Garbage! Bows are no different than rifles in their ability to efficiently kill an animal. Like a rifle it is all about having adequite equipment and propper shot placement. If the kinetic energy produced is too little or the cuting edges are insufficient that's no different than taking a .22 Hornet for most African hunting. You just aren't propperly equipped. If you are propperly equipped then it's all a matter of self dicipline in waiting for a good shot and then making propper shot placement. That's no different than rifle hunting it's just amplified. And any bow hunter worth their salt just like any rifle hunter SHOULD practice until they are thuroughly prepared to hunt. If your bow isn't propperly equipped and you haven't been practicing you have no business hunting in Africa with it or anywhere else for that matter........But then again neither should any rifle hunter that's ill equipped and hasn't practiced! Welcome to the forum. You're expertise is much apreciated.

Brett

Hi Brett,

You say garbage I say rubbish.

Lets have a draw. You pretend to be an Indian with your pointy thing and I will be the cowboy wielding a very sustaintial double rifle.

Joking aside you have to be very expert to use (and know the limitations of) a bow in Africa. Someone like Steve Kobrine.

Andrew - Brett makes two good points. An arrow is just as effective as a bullet if used correctly, and he still cannot spell!!!

Although, do you remember our client Camp Newton? He shot that big lion with you guys back in 2004 with his bow, now that didn't go quite as planned. But in the end, he did get his lion without Richard firing a shot.

Hell, in the old days of Hunter et al, they used to stick 'em like they used to do the pigsticking in India.

Mind you, rather them than me!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Andrew - Brett makes two good points. An arrow is just as effective as a bullet if used correctly, and he still cannot spell!!!

Although, do you remember our client Camp Newton? He shot that big lion with you guys back in 2004 with his bow, now that didn't go quite as planned. But in the end, he did get his lion without Richard firing a shot.

Hi Aaron,

Ok I agree if the arrow finds it mark then yes the result is deadly. But arrows do not smash through bone like bullets do. You cannot quarter or head shoot with an arrow.

Yeah I remember Camp and that was quite a story. You have to give Richard credit there as I would have probably shot the damn thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Andrew - Brett makes two good points. An arrow is just as effective as a bullet if used correctly, and he still cannot spell!!!

Extremely true on both accounts!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
You pretend to be an Indian with your pointy thing and I will be the cowboy wielding a very sustaintial double rifle.

No I think I'll take a double and my bolt action as well!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The hunting of Leopard with dogs surely has to be condemned as unethical. I can understand longstanding traditions as in the hunting of mountain lion or the European fox, but the use of hounds to disadvantage a Leopard is little more than a modern quick fix method of securing one of Africa’s more difficult species.

Leopard is one of the worlds most sought after species because of its very nature, it is wary, tenacious and often requires some hard and clever hunting to secure a good tom. This what makes it one of Africa’s classic game animals? To be chased down by a large pack of specialised curs is hardly cricket, and to advertise this unsavoury practise has already invited unnecessary attention and repercussions from those who are not ‘one of us’.

This has got to be one of the stupidest posts I have ever read.

I come from a long line of houndsmen and I can assure you that it is one the most "pure" ways of hunting game. Its roots go back centuries.

How could anyone criticize hound hunting when the traditional way is baiting???

Just another ill-mannered elitist who claims that everyone who does not do it his way is doing it the wrong way.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The hunting of Leopard with dogs surely has to be condemned as unethical. I can understand longstanding traditions as in the hunting of mountain lion or the European fox, but the use of hounds to disadvantage a Leopard is little more than a modern quick fix method of securing one of Africa’s more difficult species.

Leopard is one of the worlds most sought after species because of its very nature, it is wary, tenacious and often requires some hard and clever hunting to secure a good tom. This what makes it one of Africa’s classic game animals? To be chased down by a large pack of specialised curs is hardly cricket, and to advertise this unsavoury practise has already invited unnecessary attention and repercussions from those who are not ‘one of us’.

This has got to be one of the stupidest posts I have ever read.

I come from a long line of houndsmen and I can assure you that it is one the most "pure" ways of hunting game. Its roots go back centuries.

How could anyone criticize hound hunting when the traditional way is baiting???

I would argue it goes back millenia rather than centuries. That said we are speaking across points here. People from one area telling people from another area how they should do it just doesn't work. I would no sooner have interest in hunting deer with dogs than shutting my hand in a car door. That said I grew up in Ohio and we had a different set of "norms" regarding deer hunting. People in North Carolina frequently use dogs in the thick coastal areas and think nothing of it. Am I right or are they? No one is right. We both have our norms and they work for us.

Andrew hunts in Zambia where the norm is to hunt them with bait. It's also a country conducive to hunting with bait due to the prevelance of wilderness areas devoid of people. People in areas of Namibia, RSA, and Zimbabwe that use hounds are more culturally use to that and those areas are FAR less conducive to baiting in the day light due to increased human presence. Is one way right and the other wrong? Is one way sporting and the other not? I don't know, but I don't see a problem as long as success of the different methods is taken into consideration when alotting quotas. One of the concerns I've heard was in regard to higher success rates from dog hunts coupled with poor quota planning leading up to Namibia over utilizing their CITES leopard quota. With propper planning I don't think dog hunting should be a conservation concern. Especially when you take into consideration the fact that hunters can be selective by only following old/large tom tracks.

Brett

quote:

I don't know, but I don't see a problem as long as success of the different methods is taken into consideration when alotting quotas.

Exactly!!!

Some of my kin folks live in Mississippi. They don't hunt deer WITHOUT dogs. I always thought I wouldn't like that style of deer hunting until I tried it. Its a lot of fun and very challenging. You had better be a crack-shot!

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Mate, you will find that not much "debate" is tolerated here. Expression of an opinion divergent from that of the all knowing masses tends to quickly bring out the mob with the torches and pitchforks.

Well said! This place is full of sycophantic elitist know it all's who just can't wait to thrash anyone that doesn't tow their line. It's to bad this could be a great site and I guess it is as long as you are a yes man and never have your own opinion.

Both the above comments pretty much sum up the situation on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Mate, you will find that not much "debate" is tolerated here. Expression of an opinion divergent from that of the all knowing masses tends to quickly bring out the mob with the torches and pitchforks.

Well said! This place is full of sycophantic elitist know it all's who just can't wait to thrash anyone that doesn't tow their line. It's to bad this could be a great site and I guess it is as long as you are a yes man and never have your own opinion.

Both the above comments pretty much sum up the situation on this forum.

I think all three of you need to grow some thicker skin and suck it up........or head for greener pastures. I frequently disagree with people on here, but don't feel like people are coming after me. Discussion is fine. You just can't sound like a blow hard or people will tend to be a little harsh in their reply. Be respectful and the vast majority of people here will be as well.

Brett

Brett

As to where you can hunt leopards with hounds:
Zim seems to be the main location, mostly on private land. Botswana has been open in the past, but predator hunting is underfire in general. Moz you may get an odd hunt, but Tstese flies limit where you can use hounds. otherwise all the other usual countries are baits only.

A question for the bowhunters: how close do you think you should be to a leopard, to make a good first shot? Could you regularly get within 20 or 25 yards to the leopard on bait or for that matter with hounds. and make a good shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by wetdog2084:

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Continent:

Mate, you will find that not much "debate" is tolerated here. Expression of an opinion divergent from that of the all knowing masses tends to quickly bring out the mob with the torches and pitchforks.

Well said! This place is full of sycophantic elitist know it all's who just can't wait to thrash anyone that doesn't tow their line. It's to bad this could be a great site and I guess it is as long as you are a yes man and never have your own opinion.

Both the above comments pretty much sum up the situation on this forum.

I think all three of you need to grow some thicker skin and suck it up........or head for greener pastures. I frequently disagree with people on here, but don't feel like people are coming after me. Discussion is fine you just can't sound like an ass or people will tend to be a little harsh in their reply. Be respectful and the vast majority of people here will be as well.

Brett

Brett

Oh dear, a referee.

My take is after several yrs on this forum is....

Here comes a dude, that doesn't identify himself with any credentials, posts in the double digits, spouts off, then gets a free pass from somebody because he's a ph in Africa. Then we're supposed to suck it up and say everything is hoky doky....Give me an F'in break. If he would have said who he was, and his opinion, things might have been different. HE DIDN'T!! So as far as I'm concerned, he ain't no different than anybody that posts here.

I for one think its very unprofessional, and those of you that are sucking up... because he's a ph, need to re think where you are coming from. He stirs the sh*t, then you want to give him a free pass......

Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
My take is after several yrs on this forum is....

Here comes a dude, that doesn't identify himself with any credentials, posts in the double digits, spouts off, then gets a free pass from somebody because he's a ph in Africa. Then we're supposed to suck it up and say everything is hoky doky....Give me an F'in break. If he would have said who he was, and his opinion, things might have been different. HE DIDN'T!! So as far as I'm concerned, he ain't no different than anybody that posts here.

I for one think its very unprofessional, and those of you that are sucking up... because he's a ph, need to re think where you are coming from. He stirs the sh*t, then you want to give him a free pass......

Mad Dog

I think thats just about damn near strait;and why he cried in his soup that nobody knocked down the doors for the hunt he listed and then deleted.

first it was no dogs, then no archery equipment. what's next-double rifles only? "specialized curs"? man, don't ever make a stupid crack like that around the owner of a hound pack. the more you comment, the deeper into your mouth you put your foot.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
My take is after several yrs on this forum is....

Here comes a dude, that doesn't identify himself with any credentials, posts in the double digits, spouts off, then gets a free pass from somebody because he's a ph in Africa. Then we're supposed to suck it up and say everything is hoky doky....Give me an F'in break. If he would have said who he was, and his opinion, things might have been different. HE DIDN'T!! So as far as I'm concerned, he ain't no different than anybody that posts here.

I for one think its very unprofessional, and those of you that are sucking up... because he's a ph, need to re think where you are coming from. He stirs the sh*t, then you want to give him a free pass......

Mad Dog

Speaking of identifying oneself........who the hell are you?

You may need a rabies shot.

In regards to John Frederick:

Like I said before: The very first post on this thread was one of the stupidest I have ever read on AR!

Some of you have failed to make a valid or constructive contribution to the thread. All the information you require has already been posted in this discussion. I find it quite astonishing the aggression within a club that is united by the gun.

As a new member I apologise for not correctly posting my credentials and other personal details as this was not initially indicated to me and I am still not sure of the procedure.

For those who have just joined the thread I will summarise my debate and note it has nothing to do with American traditions, hound owners or hunting practices outside Africa.

The hunting of Africa's cats is currently under threat and is attracting to negative international attention. Canned Lion and hunting Leopard with dogs is widely considered ugly and unethical under the public eye. Therefore we need to clean up our act if big game hunting is to survive in Africa.

The use of dogs to hunt Leopard is NOT a traditional AFRICAN SAFARI HUNTING method and you will note that it is under scrutiny and is currently is being closed down. My attitude is to knock these dubious practices on the head before they shut down hunting altogether. And yes I am concerned as a PH as I for one did not study rocket science when I was at school.

Yes it is my opinion that OUR cats should not be hunted in this fashion. And besides why limit it to Leopard? Do the whole bloody hunt with dogs?

The hunts I advertised specifically for AR members were deleted as I have an enquiry.

For those who bow hunt Africa then let us save this topic for another discussion as I side tracked the thread here. Sorry for that.

Thanks to the sacrifices of some of the older members here we have retained the privaledge of free speech.

Talking of free stuff I understand I have a free pass? To what?

quote:

hunting Leopard with dogs is widely considered ugly and unethical under the public eye.

So are many other aspects of hunting. This...is NOT a valid argument.

quote:

The use of dogs to hunt Leopard is NOT a traditional AFRICAN SAFARI HUNTING method and you will note that it is under scrutiny and is currently is being closed down.

Out of ignorance...NOT science...NOT ethics...NOT numbers...JUST IGNORANCE.

When one compares hounds to baiting...it is hard to argue ethics.

quote:

My attitude is to knock these dubious practices on the head before they shut down hunting altogether.

Bowing to anti-hunters will only get you a more embolden group.

Stand up for what is right and truthful. Found your principles in SCIENCE and numbers. Then stand firm just as you were facing an ele charge.

quote:

I find it quite astonishing the aggression within a club that is united by the gun.

Your original post wasn't exactly friendly, so it is not surprising that you are getting the reaction you have.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

My attitude is to knock these dubious practices on the head before they shut down hunting altogether.

Bowing to anti-hunters will only get you a more embolden group.

Stand up for what is right and truthful. Found your principles in SCIENCE and numbers. Then stand firm just as you were facing an ele charge.

From a guy who shoots shit for living? I think not sir.

quote:

From a guy who shoots shit for living/ I think not sir.

Think not what???