df06: Regarding your unsuccessful buffalo hunt with Martin Pieters of Bulembi Safaris, did he return your trophy fee?

Since everyone is traveling to the shows etc, this is fairly untimely to ask this question.

Jeff

And since you are not involved in the transaction, you had to post this in public, why?

I a m not traveling but will be at the DSC Fri afternoon and Sat morning.

Regarding your question as to whether my buffalo trophy fee was returned, fortunately, I escrowed the trophy fee with a booking agent here in the USA. So he never was paid my trophy fee for buffalo.
The story is a bit longer than that though.

I booked through a booking agent and went to Zim in Aug 2012. I hunted with Rosslyn Safari not far from Bulawayo for five days. This was an archery hunt and was fantastic in all respects. I would highly recommend them if you bow hunt.

Then I went on the second part of the trip to the South Omay in Zim to rifle hunt buffalo and plains game for seven days.

Long story short I left camp in the dark and returned after dark for seven days. My shot opportunities was one shot at a running baboon at 250-300 yards. Saw almost no plains game and none of any trophy quality. Saw buffalo every day but nothing close to a shot opportunity.

Yes, I know that's why they call it hunting. But seven days in Zimbabwe and essentially no shot opportunities and darn little sightings.

But thats not the whole story. Upon returning home, my booking agent contacted me and wanted to confirm what my trophy fees should be so he could release my escrow money to Rosslyn and Pieters. Apparently Pieters was collecting the trophy fees for both hunts, Rosslyn, and his.

What happened was Pieters was trying to charge his trophy fees rather than Rosslyn, where I took the animals and for which I had trophy fee rates. And his were higher.

I figured that was an honest mistake and asked my booking agent to clear it up with Pieters and Rosslyn before releasing any of my escrow. I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred. My booking agent and Rosslyn prevailed and I ended up paying the Rosslyn trophy fees, as I should have. That where I took the animals and they had given me a trophy fee list for the hunt.

Since this experience I have had two other outstanding safaris and hope to book a fourth later this week.
Best of luck.

df06,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
And since you are not involved in the transaction, you had to post this in public, why?

+1

I know guys that have hunted with Martin and would myself. Since this was a misunderstanding where no money changed hands and no obvious attempt at deceit can be demonstrated, I find this thread to be in rather poor form.

What is your point?

Jeff

It is curious why this was not handled by PM.

Only thing i can think of.

I think this is just indicative of what I call "the show season phenomenon". How can tell you are experiencing the show season phenomenon:

* The number of outfitter-related complaints goes up. Not suggesting the complaints are unwarranted simply that folks must perceive that show time is the best leverage time.
* The number of outfitter-encouraged, outfitter-prepared hunt reports goes up. I love the hunt reports so whatever motivates them, I guess it does not matter.
* The number of posts by peddlers of products experiences a spike. Vendors you barely hear from during the year all of a sudden seem to have plenty of time to post.

The good news is that all signs point to the opening of show season.

Perhaps more than a simple inquiry?

Damn, what's wrong with asking a legitimate question that should be of concern to anyone who might be thinking of hunting with someone in Africa. Are you guys so enamored of MP that you don't think his practices, which sound extremely questionable in this instance, should be aired?

PMs indeed. Geesh.

What is wrong with it is that the OP didn't even know that Martin was not holding a deposit. It gave the impression that something was wrong when there was nothing to be wrong as far as the deposit goes.

I wonder of the OP has had a problem?

I agree
Less it is bad deal and legitimate, maybe refraining from comments like these is rather gentleman's way to do

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It gave the impression that something was wrong when there was nothing to be wrong as far as the deposit goes.

True Larry,, but we have since discovered via the courtesy of df06, that he the client,
was going to be inappropriately stitched-up for higher trophy Fees.

Bringing such experiences to light of AR members can help avoid similar problems or "conflicts"
in the future....and from what df06 relays, Peiters being insistent that he charge his TrophyFees for animals
which were orig. quoted by & taken with someone else, does not indicate an innocent mistake.

Mr.Pieters who posts on aR, is free to respond to this thread if he so wishes, be it to clarify, confirm, or deny, what took place.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
What happened was Pieters was trying to charge his trophy fees rather than Rosslyn, where I took the animals and for which I had trophy fee rates.
And his were higher.

I figured that was an honest mistake and asked my booking agent to clear it up with Pieters and Rosslyn before releasing any of my escrow.
I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred. My booking agent and Rosslyn prevailed
and I ended up paying the Rosslyn trophy fees, as I should have. That where I took the animals and they had given me a trophy fee list for the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Damn, what's wrong with asking a legitimate question that should be of concern to anyone who might be thinking of hunting with someone in Africa. Are you guys so enamored of MP that you don't think his practices, which sound extremely questionable in this instance, should be aired?

PMs indeed. Geesh.

I agree.

WE all learn from mistakes made by either ourselves or others.

There is nothing wrong with that.

The point is to make sure these mistakes do not happen again.


"...I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred..."

This is the part that is worrying, and could have nothing to do with Martin himself, but someone in his office who really should know better.

Would any of you gentlemen like to go through this yourselves??

I bet not.

I have hunted with Martin three times in the past five years and have always been treated fairly and almost like a member of his family. I have no qualms hunting with him or referring him to others looking for a true hunting experience in Zimbabwe.

Over those three safaris I took 4 buffalo, two of which are among the highest scoring buffalo I have taken in 19 safaris. I also took my best elephant with Martin. I was unsuccessful on a 10 day lion hunt but knew the odds going in. I can't speak to what went wrong on df06's hunt but my experiences have been excellent.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It gave the impression that something was wrong when there was nothing to be wrong as far as the deposit goes.

True Larry,, but we have since discovered via the courtesy of df06, that he the client,
was going to be inappropriately stitched-up for higher trophy Fees.

Bringing such experiences to light of AR members can help avoid similar problems or "conflicts"
in the future....and from what df06 relays, Peiters being insistent that he charge his TrophyFees for animals
which were orig. quoted by & taken with someone else, does not indicate an innocent mistake.

Mr.Pieters who posts on aR, is free to respond to this thread if he so wishes, be it to clarify, confirm, or deny, what took place.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
What happened was Pieters was trying to charge his trophy fees rather than Rosslyn, where I took the animals and for which I had trophy fee rates.
And his were higher.

I figured that was an honest mistake and asked my booking agent to clear it up with Pieters and Rosslyn before releasing any of my escrow.
I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred. My booking agent and Rosslyn prevailed
and I ended up paying the Rosslyn trophy fees, as I should have. That where I took the animals and they had given me a trophy fee list for the hunt.

Both the OP and the hunter involved neither had ANY conversation with Martin. This is 2 year old 3 hand hand gossip with no factual basis. This was something supposedly put out by some unnamed booking agent.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It gave the impression that something was wrong when there was nothing to be wrong as far as the deposit goes.

True Larry,, but we have since discovered via the courtesy of df06, that he the client,
was going to be inappropriately stitched-up for higher trophy Fees.

Bringing such experiences to light of AR members can help avoid similar problems or "conflicts"
in the future....and from what df06 relays, Peiters being insistent that he charge his TrophyFees for animals
which were orig. quoted by & taken with someone else, does not indicate an innocent mistake.

Mr.Pieters who posts on aR, is free to respond to this thread if he so wishes, be it to clarify, confirm, or deny, what took place.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
What happened was Pieters was trying to charge his trophy fees rather than Rosslyn, where I took the animals and for which I had trophy fee rates.
And his were higher.

I figured that was an honest mistake and asked my booking agent to clear it up with Pieters and Rosslyn before releasing any of my escrow.
I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred. My booking agent and Rosslyn prevailed
and I ended up paying the Rosslyn trophy fees, as I should have. That where I took the animals and they had given me a trophy fee list for the hunt.

Both the OP and the hunter involved neither had ANY conversation with Martin. This is 2 year old 3 hand hand gossip with no factual basis. This was something supposedly put out by some unnamed booking agent.

Just a suggestion, but if you want this thread to die maybe you shouldn't engage with a troll who has never been to Africa and maybe never hunted.

I fail to understand the gist of this discussion.

Surely documentation covering all aspects of the safari including trophy fees, were made available to the hunter, the agent and to the outfitter, prior to paying a deposit and embarking on a safari? Should a discrepancy have been made (it appears thus), referral to said documentation is just a matter of course, and any mudslinging or negative publicity, which in my opinion is always uncalled for, could have been avoided.

Shows the importance of getting ALL your ducks in a row before committing to any safari.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
I fail to understand the gist of this discussion.

Surely documentation covering all aspects of the safari including trophy fees, were made available to the hunter, the agent and to the outfitter, prior to paying a deposit and embarking on a safari? Should a discrepancy have been made (it appears thus), referral to said documentation is just a matter of course, and any mudslinging or negative publicity, which in my opinion is always uncalled for, could have been avoided.

Shows the importance of getting ALL your ducks in a row before committing to any safari.

Neil,

There are those of us who never have any documentation.

We go by the old gentleman's verbal agreements.

I have never had any problems.

In this instance, as I mentioned earlier, Martin might not have been aware of what had gone on.

I suspect he spends most of his time hunting, and someone in his office might have created this.

In which case, it will be to his advantage to clarify it.

quote:

Neil,There are those of us who never have any documentation.We go by the old gentleman's verbal agreements.I have never had any problems.In this instance, as I mentioned earlier, Martin might not have been aware of what had gone on.I suspect he spends most of his time hunting, and someone in his office might have created this.In which case, it will be to his advantage to clarify it.

Saeed,

I am a huge proponent of a gentleman's agreement, sadly it seems to no longer be the norm, and for good reason; just too many crooked deals out there.

In this instance, with three parties involved in the deal, some common ground should have been found, and in all fairness the parties involved no doubt believed such a state existed. It obviously didn't.

That said, I don't believe any malice was meant, and this issue would be cleared up amicably.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:


Just a suggestion, but if you want this thread to die maybe you shouldn't engage with a troll who has never been to Africa and maybe never hunted.

Bwana Buduki I'm sure is a grown man, he can think and decide for himself who he reponds to on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Both the OP and the hunter involved neither had ANY conversation with Martin.
This is 2 year old 3 hand hand gossip with no factual basis.
This was something supposedly put out by some unnamed booking agent.

so the booking agent for client df06 was lying about their being an intense TF dispute??
..By what authority do you (or anyone) know that to be the case?

cause I guess some of us are now curious as to what reliable credible evidence people on AR are using to decide
whats true and what isn't true in the matter.

In think its unfair at this stage, to prematurely judge or condemn, client df06, his booking agent, or Mr.Pieters.

Slightly off topic but I have to show my ignorance and ask, Why do people use booking agents in this electronic age?

I mean even an non computer type like myself can do the research and book direct with the safari/hunt company.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There are those of us who never have any documentation.

We go by the old gentleman's verbal agreements.

I have never had any problems.

Saeed,

I have a great deal of respect for you but must say, having seen you write comments similar to the above repeatedly, that the rules and incentives governing your interaction with a PH or outfitter are quite different from those that might govern the vast majority of relationships faced by the average client.

JMHO

I am sure Martin who is a "stand up guy" is traveling and will respond to these as that is the type of fellow he is and I believe that there will be clarity in the situation.

Certainly not taking sides as we dont know all the facts and have not heard from Mart but a POSSIBLE explanation to the higher trophy fees may be this-

If a client wants a buffalo and good plains game an operator from areas that have low plains game numbers like the Zambezi Valley as a whole may book the hunt with the intention of taking the buff in their area and then moving to the plains game area to complete their bag ( or vica versa as is in this case)

The contract is signed on MP price list which may differ from the plains game areas trophy fees. While initially this may not sound fair you need to understand that the difference in the trophy fees often cover for the transfer fees, extra Ph fees ( as he would be paying his ph a dangerous game rate not a plains game rate and also covering for what he has lost by NOT keeping the client in the Omay- we all have contracts with council guaranteeing "X" amount of days per buff etc.

I am sure that there was a contract and IF that contract had the plains game prices on it then there should not be an issue as obviously the client agreed to them and was happy with them prior to the safari. The fact that he later found out that the prices were different would leave a sour taste in his mouth IF it was not explained to him WHY they were different which was possibly the case

Not saying this is what happened but is a very possible and plausible explanation. Hope both parties do clear it up as never nice to see this.

Regards contracts - When I was a "one man band" I never used to have contracts, but as we grew and got more clients we insisted and the reason was not so much to protect ourselves or the client but just to remind everyone involved what was actually discussed and agreed on. Some hunts are booked 3 years in advance and with my terrible memory I have problems remembering things I talked about yesterday let alone 3 years back!! Seriously though for both parties a contract should be insisted on! Cheers Buzz

quote:

Regards contracts - When I was a "one man band" I never used to have contracts, but as we grew and got more clients we insisted and the reason was not so much to protect ourselves or the client but just to remind everyone involved what was actually discussed and agreed on. Some hunts are booked 3 years in advance and with my terrible memory I have problems remembering things I talked about yesterday let alone 3 years back!! Seriously though for both parties a contract should be insisted on! Cheers Buzz

Precisely, and that's what I am alluding to. Your hypothesis on the situation is highly probable, and all parties should have been aware of it.

Trax:

The thread is about whether Martin returned a deposit. He didn't even hold a deposit. I think bringing that up in this manner was wrong under any circumstance especially considering that Martin has no such deposit .

If there was a problem with the hunt, he should discuss that in the hunt report section. No one is saying that those issues should not be discussed.

Like many, I am curious over the trophy issue.

It is not my place to speak for Mart but I believe there is sometimes variability in the trophy fees for his hunts depending on time and location. Like any business there can be honest mistakes when it comes to billing. Last year he contacted me about a trophy fee which was less than originally stated. I had paid the fee in camp and somehow this didn't get back to the office. He quickly checked and thanked me for my patience. Our contact was both personal and professional. I'm sure collecting 'after hunt' fees can sometimes be a nightmare.

Gentlemen,

None of us know all the facts, and what Buzz has posted sheds some light on this issue.

Once while hunting in South Africa, my PH forgot to charge me for some of the animals we had shot.

He contacted me after I had got back home.

It was a simple mistake, and I was very happy to send him the money immediately.

I also know for a fact that similar things happened to other clients.

Sadly, those clients chose to ignore all correspondence, and the PH was out of pocket for his mistake.

I guess I am a cynic. When I see a question posted on the eve of the shows by a "bobmn" who obviously knows facts about the hunt since he refers to an "unsuccessful" hunt, the outfitter and a trophy fee dispute but who is not the hunter. Then I see a post shortly thereafter by the hunter adding in details and color. When I also consider that perhaps the "mn" in Bob's signature means Minnesota coupled with the fact that the hunter is from Minnesota too. When I consider that if the question was a question for df06 as it purports to be, why not PM df06. When it appears that the hunt took place in the summer of 2014 yet no hunt report or thread was started raising the issue at that time. I start to suspect that the original post and the timing of the post were orchestrated and orchestrated for one purpose only . . . not to enlighten all the good folks on AR, that could have been done in a hunt report . . . but to try and put pressure on Martin on the eve of the shows.

I have no problem with the issue being raised, but I do believe the timing and circumstances suggest that this has less to do with educating and informing the AR group as it does with someone trying to leverage someone else. In my view that is what I think a number of people are bothered with . . . myself included. Also seems as if the AR group is being attempted to be played the fool.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I guess I am a cynic. When I see a question posted on the eve of the shows by a "bobmn" who obviously knows facts about the hunt since he refers to an "unsuccessful" hunt, the outfitter and a trophy fee dispute but who is not the hunter. Then I see a post shortly thereafter by the hunter adding in details and color. When I also consider that perhaps the "mn" in Bob's signature means Minnesota coupled with the fact that the hunter is from Minnesota too. When I consider that if the question was a question for df06 as it purports to be, why not PM df06. When it appears that the hunt took place in the summer of 2014 yet no hunt report or thread was started raising the issue at that time. I start to suspect that the original post and the timing of the post were orchestrated and orchestrated for one purpose only . . . not to enlighten all the good folks on AR, that could have been done in a hunt report . . . but to try and put pressure on Martin on the eve of the shows.

I have no problem with the issue being raised, but I do believe the timing and circumstances suggest that this has less to do with educating and informing the AR group as it does with someone trying to leverage someone else. In my view that is what I think a number of people are bothered with . . . myself included. Also seems as if the AR group is being attempted to be played the fool.

Point of Order Mr. Jines. The hunt as reported b df06 was conducted in 2012. By his own admission he had NO conversation with Martin Pieters. Who the Hell knows who bobmn is? But the gist of this thread is to damage. Plain and simple. Poor form.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I guess I am a cynic. When I see a question posted on the eve of the shows by a "bobmn" who obviously knows facts about the hunt since he refers to an "unsuccessful" hunt, the outfitter and a trophy fee dispute but who is not the hunter. Then I see a post shortly thereafter by the hunter adding in details and color. When I also consider that perhaps the "mn" in Bob's signature means Minnesota coupled with the fact that the hunter is from Minnesota too. When I consider that if the question was a question for df06 as it purports to be, why not PM df06. When it appears that the hunt took place in the summer of 2014 yet no hunt report or thread was started raising the issue at that time. I start to suspect that the original post and the timing of the post were orchestrated and orchestrated for one purpose only . . . not to enlighten all the good folks on AR, that could have been done in a hunt report . . . but to try and put pressure on Martin on the eve of the shows.

I have no problem with the issue being raised, but I do believe the timing and circumstances suggest that this has less to do with educating and informing the AR group as it does with someone trying to leverage someone else. In my view that is what I think a number of people are bothered with . . . myself included. Also seems as if the AR group is being attempted to be played the fool.

Point of Order Mr. Jines. The hunt as reported b df06 was conducted in 2012. By his own admission he had NO conversation with Martin Pieters. Who the Hell knows who bobmn is? But the gist of this thread is to damage. Plain and simple. Poor form.

Jeff

That almost makes it worse. Raising the issue as being topical when it is more than two years old. Also, unless I missed it, even in the report from two years ago he did not mention the trophy fee issue . . . or even hunting with Martin. As you note, this was not done to educate or inform . . . it was done to discredit and create leverage. Worse yet, it appears to have been orchestrated so as to make it look innocuous.

Things just don't smell right.

When in doubt there is none.

Dutch

Without going into too much detail.
At the time of this safari my mother was dating Peter Johnstone ( owner of Rosslyn ), I had the hunting rights to Cawstone.
I marketed my combo hunts ( Omay/ Cawstone )using my price list.
Bob booked his hunt with my company, not Rosslyn safaris.
My trophy fees were slightly higher as there are other costs involved in running a hunting operation.
As far as the buffalo is concerned, Bob is very much aware of what transpired on the hunt and he has been emailed.
Cheers

quote:

Without going into too much detail.At the time of this safari my mother was dating Peter Johnstone ( owner of Rosslyn ), I had the hunting rights to Cawstone.I marketed my combo hunts ( Omay/ Cawstone )using my price list. Bob booked his hunt with my company, not Rosslyn safaris. My trophy fees were slightly higher as there are other costs involved in running a hunting operation.As far as the buffalo is concerned, Bob is very much aware of what transpired on the hunt and he has been emailed.Cheers

Just as was hypothesised earlier.

df06: Thanks for taking the time to answer my inquiry. In August of 2011 I booked a buffalo hunt with Martin Pieters of Bulembi Safaris in Omay South campfire area which he offered on this website. He stipulated payment in full 60 days prior to the hunt date and I wired him the daily rate as well as the trophy fee. Because of the strong recommendations from members of this board I was not hesitant to pay in full. Like you I did not see a mature bull. I have been requesting the return of the trophy fee from Mr. Pieters via email and private messages and to date I have not received a refund of the trophy fee.

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
df06: Thanks for taking the time to answer my inquiry. In August of 2011 I booked a buffalo hunt with Martin Pieters of Bulembi Safaris in Omay South campfire area which he offered on this website. He stipulated payment in full 60 days prior to the hunt date and I wired him the daily rate as well as the trophy fee. Because of the strong recommendations from members of this board I was not hesitant to pay in full. Like you I did not see a mature bull. I have been requesting the return of the trophy fee from Mr. Pieters via email and private messages and to date I have not received a refund of the trophy fee.

I don't understand paying the full cost of a hunt 60 days out, to include TFs. Granted, the client may cancel, but some of the hunt costs are also negated.

How often does a client cancel? Has anyone here ever cancelled 60 days out?

I am always nervous about transferring large sums of money. Even if the booking agent holds it, there is nothing to say he/she won't go BK before your hunt. Guess what? In BK those funds are frozen - you get in line with everyone else who has a claim, and yours isn't even secured.

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
df06: Thanks for taking the time to answer my inquiry. In August of 2011 I booked a buffalo hunt with Martin Pieters of Bulembi Safaris in Omay South campfire area which he offered on this website. He stipulated payment in full 60 days prior to the hunt date and I wired him the daily rate as well as the trophy fee. Because of the strong recommendations from members of this board I was not hesitant to pay in full. Like you I did not see a mature bull. I have been requesting the return of the trophy fee from Mr. Pieters via email and private messages and to date I have not received a refund of the trophy fee.

I am not saying it didn't happen but why wait form 8/11 to 1/15 to raise the issue?

I never pay trophy fees in advance nor have I ever been asked to do so. This includes Martin
whose company I hunted with last year.