According to 470EDDY, the hunter didn't see a buffalo

quote:

Maybe I am missing something, but isn't a major point here for all potential Buff hunters that here is a client that hunted 7 days in the south Omay and didn't see a buff....

According to df06 he saw many buffalo

quote:

Saw buffalo every day but nothing close to a shot opportunity.

According to Martin Pieters,

quote:

As far as the buffalo is concerned, Bob is very much aware of what transpired on the hunt and he has been emailed.

And folks wonder why PH's don't spend their time here with all the contradicting posts and mudslinging. Nevermind you can go back in the Hunt Reports and find a dozen or more great hunt reports on Martin, the lynch mob mentality here demands this be played out in public... ridiculous.

This thread is puzzling from many perspectives.

1- the finances for my hunt with Martin were handled exactly opposite. Why?

2- the client in some respects seems like a problem client. When one refuses to pay the contracted rate because it cost the outfitter less than he charged is flat out wrong. After all, the outfitter is trying to make a living. He is not in business to break even or lose money.

3-I saw buff every day in the 3 days I hunted Omay south. Why did the client see none? I think Martin is alluding to some issue but hasn't said what it was.

I don't know what to think. I still have confidence in Martin.

I agree with you Larry, but it's time for Martin to reply to these allegations.

There are two clients here, df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900. mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price difference for which MP had a very reasonable response to. He has yet to respond to the refund inquiry directly

I've purposely stayed out of this, but I can't any longer. Martin is a first class outfitter. My son and I hunted with him in 2011. Everything was perfect. No issue with dl06, but that bobmn., I have a major issue with. He showed up over on another forum and tried to say the Omay was shot out of buff. Myself and another guy called him out on it, and no answer. He's nothing but a shit stirer....


Mad Dog

I agree, arguing about trophy fees after you've signed a contract and have the animals in the salt is poor form at best, dishonest at worst...I favor dishonest.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
There are two clients here,

df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900.

mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price.

I suggest you go re-read the posts by df06 and bobmn,
cause you have got things all mixed up.

ITs actually df06 that disputed the rate on trophy fees ...and bobmn who's due the $1978 trophy fee refund.

We frequently talk about the value of the Forum to clients considering outfitters . . . perhaps outfitters should be using the Forum to evaluate clients. I am convinced there are some clients that outfitters would be better off simply refusing to take their money.

You mean like those clients who get pissed because an outfitter has to audacity to charge his contracted amount?

. . . exactly, and those that seem to go into every hunt looking for things to complain about.

There used to be an oilman in Houston who had a reputation of suing everyone he did business with. In fact, it was rumored that he had a notebook that listed all the people he had sued and all the people he was going to sue. Got to where anyone doing business with him would charge a litigation premium for the equipment/work to account for the inevitable lawsuit that would result.

. . maybe outfitters should have two sets of daily rates . . . the pain in the ass client daily rate and the non-pain in the ass client daily rate.

If the two individuals that claim they are owed trophy fee refunds, and have not received them,
How are they pain in the ass clients?
I have been in that situation to the tune of a $5000. deposit that was skipped out on. It certainly sours things, even if some parts were great about the trip.

Larry came to AR recently to lamely bitch-complain about a client in another group in his shared camp who would no talk to him.

But now has a problem with people who are coming to AR to say they are owed thousand$ in a refund.

Of course Larrys candy ass gripe is legitimate, but a client gripe about being owed money isn't....

No Trax you have it wrong. All wrong in fact. The other client in camp I was in was a total ass for a number of reasons. In fact, if you will check you will see that he accused the staff of stealing something that was in fact in his possession amongst other things.

My issue here is not the comments on the refund due. The fact that a client doesn't want to pay the contracted rate is the problem. This issue makes me question the matter of the refund, not to mention to close proximity of those complaining .

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

My issue here is not the comments on the refund due.

NO it isn't since You seem to be conveniently ignoring that issue.


Lets remember Larry,
YOU are the one who started a lot of shit on AR - about Boddington and the alleged Illegal Banteng Hunt'
...and the utterly false disparaging rumour that STu Taylor was suing his client for shooting him.
so clearly you are no saint yourself,

but now you have the hide to insinuate or question the validity of others on AR who raise issues about their PH.

Saeed doesn't have an issue with the context of this thread or its continuation, and that all that really matters.

and your mear speculations are not really resolving the claims either way, as made by client of MP.

You are once again wrong. Plus I seem to recall you agreeing with me on CB.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

My issue here is not the comments on the refund due.

NO it isn't since You seem to be conveniently ignoring that issue.


Lets remember Larry,
YOU are the one who started a lot of shit on AR - about Boddington and the alleged Illegal Banteng Hunt'
...and the utterly false disparaging rumour that STu Taylor was suing his client for shooting him.
so clearly you are no saint yourself,

but now you have the hide to insinuate or question the validity of others on AR who raise issues about their PH.

Saeed doesn't have an issue with the context of this thread or its continuation, and that all that really matters.

and your mear speculations are not really resolving the claims either way, as made by client of MP.

Larry is free to post what he wishes, just as you are free to post what you wish.

I still have questions about that Banting hunt, I cannot remember hearing anything that would close that subject.

Stu Taylor issue was Conservation Force has refused to deal with him as soon as they knew he was paying a lawyer - they have no wish to get involved in collecting donations for a court case.


Back to this case.

Just as Martin explained to us why there was a difference in the charges, I am hoping he will explain why a trophy fee was not refunded.

There might more to this than was posted, as none of us is privy to all the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
There are two clients here,

df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900.

mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price.

I suggest you go re-read the posts by df06 and bobmn,
cause you have got things all mixed up.

ITs actually df06 that disputed the rate on trophy fees ...and bobmn who's due the $1978 trophy fee refund.

I stand corrected bobmn is due the $1978 refund. and df06 that is the crook, sorry

I have no problem with you calling me a crook or any other derogatory name. If that makes you happy, have at it.
I did receive prior to booking my safari, a trophy fee list from Rosslyn safaris. I shot five animals with Rosslyn and had a terrific safari. I paid exactly what the trophy fee list for Rosslyn said.
I had a great chat with them at DSC two weeks ago.
They are preparing a quote for a 2016 safari for myself and a friend.
Who Mr Pieters was dating or what arrangements he had with Rosalyn is between them and him.
Possibly, "just maybe"there are bigger issues here. But if you would rather call me a crook, than really try to understand the issues that's quite ok with me.

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
There are two clients here,

df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900.

mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price.

I suggest you go re-read the posts by df06 and bobmn,
cause you have got things all mixed up.

ITs actually df06 that disputed the rate on trophy fees ...and bobmn who's due the $1978 trophy fee refund.

I stand corrected bobmn is due the $1978 refund. and df06 that is the crook, sorry

Not sure why he is a crook, based on what has been posted.

The argument seems to center on exactly which company his agent booked to conduct his hunt. And thus which trophy fee list applies.
Martin believes he was booked to him and his company/price list.
df06 believes he was booked with Rosslyn and their cheaper trophy list applied.
Sounds more like miscommunication than any attempt to cheat and that may very well be the agent's fault more than anyone else's.
The devil is in the details, or in this case, any contracts and emails between the parties that we have not seen.
If this was all done on a phone call, conversation, and a handshake, it will forever remain a he said, she said type situation.
The love interests of certain parties also tosses in a unique variable that I have no idea how factor in the above.

Trax,

Your inability to comprehend and repeat the King's English is disturbing. Your attempt to misquote and show Mr. Shores in a negative light is both childish and laughable. He has brought forth indisputable facts on matters that you have tried to twist and belittle. You logical thinking is lacking and completely flawed. Your attempt to create controversy where none exists is frankly sad.

Jeff

Just used the "Ignore" feature for the first time. I discovered that I had been manually skipping over his posts anyway for a long time. Hate that it has come to that as I used to think everyone has something to contribute - but life is too short.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Trax,

Your inability to comprehend and repeat the King's English is disturbing. Your attempt to misquote and show Mr. Shores in a negative light is both childish and laughable. He has brought forth indisputable facts on matters that you have tried to twist and belittle. You logical thinking is lacking and completely flawed. Your attempt to create controversy where none exists is frankly sad.

Jeff

+1

I have "Trax the Australian wannabe" on ignore. The only ignore I have on AR - he has earned the honor.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
There are two clients here,

df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900.

mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price.

I suggest you go re-read the posts by df06 and bobmn,
cause you have got things all mixed up.

ITs actually df06 that disputed the rate on trophy fees ...and bobmn who's due the $1978 trophy fee refund.

I stand corrected bobmn is due the $1978 refund. and df06 that is the crook, sorry

Not sure why he is a crook, based on what has been posted.

The argument seems to center on exactly which company his agent booked to conduct his hunt. And thus which trophy fee list applies.
Martin believes he was booked to him and his company/price list.
df06 believes he was booked with Rosslyn and their cheaper trophy list applied.
Sounds more like miscommunication than any attempt to cheat and that may very well be the agent's fault more than anyone else's.
The devil is in the details, or in this case, any contracts and emails between the parties that we have not seen.
If this was all done on a phone call, conversation, and a handshake, it will forever remain a he said, she said type situation.
The love interests of certain parties also tosses in a unique variable that I have no idea how factor in the above.

I don't think it is fair to book a hunt with someone, in this case Marti, and expect to pay trophy fees offered by another outfit - even if you hunt there.

There might be additional expenses involved.

If one does not like the trophy fees offered by someone, he is at liberty to hunt somewhere else.

Still does not explain why Martin apparently has not refunded his trophy fee.

This whole thread underlines the importance, from both parties, to understand the full aspects of the hunt, and to pay particular interest to the financial obligations.

I had an Argentinian guy, years ago, book a lion hunt in the Forestry area of Zim. It wasn't his first safari with me (and wasn't his last either). The deal allowed him to shoot an elephant but he would only do so if it was substantially larger than our previous elephant, taken the year before.

There were various other connotations relating to the hunt including harvesting a PAC elephant, of which no trophy export was allowed. He understood, and also understood the expenses involved.

As luck would have it, we came across an exceptional elephant bull, and took him.

When the time for balancing the bill came, he refused to pay the US$12000 trophy fee, claiming he was under the impression it was a PAC hunt and it was only costing X and not Y. It took a few days, but in the end he accepted what we had agreed upon, reluctantly I may add, but you can't argue with printed contracts.

As I said, this thread just highlights the importance of understanding all the financial implications of your safari.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
I hunted with Rosslyn Safari not far from Bulawayo for five days. This was an archery hunt and was fantastic in all respects. I would highly recommend them if you bow hunt.

But thats not the whole story. Upon returning home, my booking agent contacted me and wanted to confirm what my trophy fees should be so he could release my escrow money to Rosslyn and Pieters. Apparently Pieters was collecting the trophy fees for both hunts, Rosslyn, and his.

What happened was Pieters was trying to charge his trophy fees rather than Rosslyn, where I took the animals and for which I had trophy fee rates. And his were higher.

I figured that was an honest mistake and asked my booking agent to clear it up with Pieters and Rosslyn before releasing any of my escrow. I was not in the conversations, but it was apparently not a mistake and some serious debate occurred. My booking agent and Rosslyn prevailed and I ended up paying the Rosslyn trophy fees, as I should have. That where I took the animals and they had given me a trophy fee list for the hunt.

I don't know why the debate has gone on so long and why some seem to think someone has done nothing wrong, deliberate or by misunderstanding, the latter position I personally would be somewhat sceptical about.

As a contract manager I daily deal in contracts and agreements and the law that relates to them.

If we don't call df06 a liar, then on the information given, the pertinent bits I have quoted above, the contract df06 had was not honoured correctly in terms of payment for the hunt.

Was the billing done in error? It seems quite clear df06 booked and had been given a Rosslyn trophy fee list and undertook his bow hunt with Rosslyn. This seems a perfectly clear contract arrangement to me. In fact that it was a bow hunt for PG followed by a rifle hunt on another concession for buffalo, to me provides greater evidence of separation of two contracts.

Unfortunately who's a mate of who and who's supposedly a good bugger clouds some peoples assessment of a straightforward situation where someone, df06, seems to have been treated as an easybeat.

Had it been a misunderstanding I would have thought it would have been settled quickly and amicably, it seems there has been a lot of foot dragging to even get halfway there.

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
This whole thread underlines the importance, from both parties, to understand the full aspects of the hunt, and to pay particular interest to the financial obligations.

I had an Argentinian guy, years ago, book a lion hunt in the Forestry area of Zim. It wasn't his first safari with me (and wasn't his last either). The deal allowed him to shoot an elephant but he would only do so if it was substantially larger than our previous elephant, taken the year before.

There were various other connotations relating to the hunt including harvesting a PAC elephant, of which no trophy export was allowed. He understood, and also understood the expenses involved.

As luck would have it, we came across an exceptional elephant bull, and took him.

When the time for balancing the bill came, he refused to pay the US$12000 trophy fee, claiming he was under the impression it was a PAC hunt and it was only costing X and not Y. It took a few days, but in the end he accepted what we had agreed upon, reluctantly I may add, but you can't argue with printed contracts.

As I said, this thread just highlights the importance of understanding all the financial implications of your safari.

Nah mate we do everything on a handshake over here. It maybe old fashioned but then again I like to deal with the same calibre of client and I find communication much more important than some flimsy contract.

Just done a handshake deal with an AR member and it was he who extended his hand first.

quote:

Nah mate we do everything on a handshake over here. It maybe old fashioned but then again I like to deal with the same calibre of client and I find communication much more important than some flimsy contract.Just done a handshake deal with an AR member and it was he who extended his hand first.

In fairness English was not his first language. Listen a handshake deal is always the nicest way of doing things. It will generally tell you what the hunt will be like. Ironically I have just finished chatting to someone, not in this industry, about honest and integrity and how it seems to have lost its place in the modern world.

Being honest - or otherwise - has nothing to do with nationality, race, colour, age or gender.

You are either honest, or you are not.

Sadly, the dishonest ones are found everywhere, and they will make any old excuse to carry on being dishonest.

Has the issue of the trophy fee refund been resolved?

Was Martin at SCI?

It appears Martin, who has offered hunts for sale on AR, does not feel the need to address this issue on AR.

Granted there are two sides but Martin's silence makes one wonder.

I saw Martin in Vegas.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I saw Martin in Vegas.

Now Vegas is over, Martin might be able to say something on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:
There are two clients here,

df06 who is inquiring about a promised refund per email apparently from MP of around $1900.

mnbob who escrowed his buff trophy fee thus no refund was forthcoming but argued about PG trophy fee price.

I suggest you go re-read the posts by df06 and bobmn,
cause you have got things all mixed up.

ITs actually df06 that disputed the rate on trophy fees ...and bobmn who's due the $1978 trophy fee refund.

I stand corrected bobmn is due the $1978 refund. and df06 that is the crook, sorry

Not sure why he is a crook, based on what has been posted.

The argument seems to center on exactly which company his agent booked to conduct his hunt. And thus which trophy fee list applies.
Martin believes he was booked to him and his company/price list.
df06 believes he was booked with Rosslyn and their cheaper trophy list applied.
Sounds more like miscommunication than any attempt to cheat and that may very well be the agent's fault more than anyone else's.
The devil is in the details, or in this case, any contracts and emails between the parties that we have not seen.
If this was all done on a phone call, conversation, and a handshake, it will forever remain a he said, she said type situation.
The love interests of certain parties also tosses in a unique variable that I have no idea how factor in the above.

I don't think it is fair to book a hunt with someone, in this case Marti, and expect to pay trophy fees offered by another outfit - even if you hunt there.

There might be additional expenses involved.

If one does not like the trophy fees offered by someone, he is at liberty to hunt somewhere else.

Still does not explain why Martin apparently has not refunded his trophy fee.

I took it that he booked with the lower trophy fee folks who took him to hunt with Martin and higher trophy fees without his consent until the final bill came due.

Beauty of forums is that no one is obliged to retaliate in response and to voice comment is purely a personal decision.

Bet you he is probably bouncing his delightful children on his knee and more thinking of giving his wife a hug.

quote:

Beauty of forums is that no one is obliged to retaliate in response and to voice comment is purely a personal decision.

Quoth a wise man.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Beauty of forums is that no one is obliged to retaliate in response

Mr.Peiters had no problem using AR to explain why the difference in trophy fee prices for client df06,
but does not bother to explain the raised issue of non-refunded trophy Fees claims made by his other clients.
NO doubt MP is being rather selective of the issues he chooses to address on AR.

...Why not to just come clean on the details of all of them?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Beauty of forums is that no one is obliged to retaliate in response

Mr.Peiters had no problem using AR to explain why the difference in trophy fee prices for client df06,
but does not bother to explain the raised issue of non-refunded trophy Fees claims made by his other clients.
NO doubt MP is being rather selective of the issues he chooses to address on AR.

...Why not to just come clean on the details of all of them?

In which case he is leaving a question mark on his behavior towards his clients.

Which cannot be very good for future business, whatever it is.