375 H&H vs. 375 Rem Ultra in a Remington 700 --- which one to buy for a African plains game hunt that will also include Cape Buffalo. I am posing this question for a friend that wants to purchase a new rifle for an upcoming trip.

#1 dont do a remington for d.g.
#2 375 h+h would be better for finding ammo in africa
#3 he should bring at least 2 rifles. good luck.

This is not a discussion as to brand of rifles so lets not go there -- this is strictly a issue of caliber selection ---between the two listed

The only advantage of the RUM is for very long PG shots. Where will you be hunting? If in the Namib desert, then the RUM may be a decent choice.

For cape buffalo, the RUM is actually a disadvantage compared to the H&H. Also, resale on RUM rifles tends to be crap.

NOTE: Although you have asked us not to comment on the make/model of rifle, the Rem 700 is a mistake.

If you are not confident that the 375 H&H will do the job then go to a 416. I doubt that the Rem Ultra will be any more effective than the H&H. My Brother had a 375 WBY, it was accurate but the recoil was fierce. His PH, Clive Eaton, would hide David's WBY ammo so that he had to use Clive's H&H rounds. The rifle was just as effective but much easier to shoot. I'd go traditional with the H&H.

TerryR

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
For cape buffalo, the RUM is actually a disadvantage compared to the H&H.

I'm curious as to why?

Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely interested.

While I don't particularly care for anything "Ultra" or "Super" or whatever, why is it a disadvantage?

Is it case design (shoulder), or something else that I'm missing?

Woodmanctry

If your friend is making his first foray into big bores I would suggest that the H&H would be better choice because it is just easier to shoot. If not and he doesn't mind recoil the Ultra is definitely a bigger hammer. I personally just had a new custom rifle built with idea I could use it for everything I might encounter. I chose the 375 Weatherby.

FWIW I've killed quite a few animals with a 700 Remington.

Mark

Unless your friend is willing to reload his choices of factory rounds for the 375RUM will be extremely limited.

The 375 Rem Ultra will do nothing better than the old 1912 375H&H, except burn more powder, and create more recoil, and destroy more bullets in close shots, and a gain if about 2" flater trejectory at 300 yds. you cannot see a 2" object at 300 yds, let alone hit it.
Regardless of whether, or not you want to discuss rifle makes, when you say 375 Rem Ultra, is one of the choices, you are saying the Remington Mod 700 is one of the choices, because nobody else chambers that round in a factory rifle. That being said, 500Grains is right the Mod 700 Rem Ultra is a mistake if Dangerous game is involved, not only because of the cartridge, but more importantly the rifle it comes in!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Woodmanctry

If your friend is making his first foray into big bores I would suggest that the H&H would be better choice because it is just easier to shoot. If not and he doesn't mind recoil the Ultra is definitely a bigger hammer. I personally just had a new custom rifle built with idea I could use it for everything I might encounter. I chose the 375 Weatherby.

FWIW I've killed quite a few animals with a 700 Remington.

Mark

Mark: I have too; and if you read Boddington's Safari Rifles and Carmichel's books on rifles, both state the extractor thing is a non-issue. FWIW, the last extractor failure I had was a hot load in a CRF Mod 70; the extractor sprung out.

If I had to choose a Remington 700 for DG, I'd just as soon stay home. Probably safer!! If I wasn't tied to the sinking ship of a Rem 700, I'd go with a CZ550 in 375H&H. A little work by a competent gunsmith will turn this into a DG rifle, something no gunsmith could do with a Rem 700.

the rem comment was referring to the crf vs pushfeed without mentioning it cuzz it will end up a pissing thread. when you throw in d.g. you need to consider crf.

99% you wont have a problem but hey go with 100%

tel yer buddy to bring an 06 or 338 win for p.g. and a big bore for buff. maybe 416 rigby, 458 lott or 416 rem. good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Bore:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
For cape buffalo, the RUM is actually a disadvantage compared to the H&H.

I'm curious as to why?

Not looking for an argument, I'm genuinely interested.

While I don't particularly care for anything "Ultra" or "Super" or whatever, why is it a disadvantage?

Is it case design (shoulder), or something else that I'm missing?

Velocity above 2400 fps on hard targets starts causing bullets to fail. Also, extra velocity means more bullet yaw (tipping), early bullet tumble and therefore less penetration.

As for the Rem 700, there are 3 problems:

- broken extractors (It happens in dirty conditions, even if Boddington doesn't know about it). This is correctible by installing a Sako extractor.

- broken bolt handle (it is only lightly soldered onto the bolt body). This is correctible by welding the bolt handle on.

- accidental discharge due to defective trigger/safety design. This is correctible by installing a timney trigger.

Go with the H&H. No need to buy a RUM.

If he feels the need to buy something more powerful than the H&H, and doesn't like the recoil of the 416, then buy a 416 and load it with 350 grain bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Velocity above 2400 fps on hard targets starts causing bullets to fail. Also, extra velocity means more bullet yaw (tipping), early bullet tumble and therefore less penetration.

I think if Saeed were posting he would disagree with you here. True some bullets will be pushed to their limits however now days there are so many good choices...this argument is no longer valid IMO. Having said this, I do agree the H&H is the better choice for a DG rifle.

I don't think there is much advantage to a .375RUM over the .375h&h. For the increase in recoil, I would rather have a .416remmag or .404jeffery. Have him find a M70 or CZ or RugerRSM in .375h&h & go hunt.

TerryR:

As you might guess from my user name, you know where my sympathies lie! Your mention about a 375 Wheatherby (a caliber I never shot, thank heaven!) and its "fierce recoil" stirred a memory about my one and only trip to Africa (regretfuly). At the very end of my trip (for buff) my PH and I had become somewhat friendly. Another client had come into camp whom I had met the night before. He came back into camp in quite early morning next day. (The PH had wanted to find out how well he could shoot and asked him to "sight in") The guy had a real bloody nose. My PH shrugged and said: " He got a Weatherby kiss!" (I hasten to say that I was leaving the next day from camp and this guy and I were not together)

quote:

As for the Rem 700, there are 3 problems:

- broken extractors (It happens in dirty conditions, even if Boddington doesn't know about it). This is correctible by installing a Sako extractor.

- broken bolt handle (it is only lightly soldered onto the bolt body). This is correctible by welding the bolt handle on.

- accidental discharge due to defective trigger/safety design. This is correctible by installing a timney trigger.

500-- just out of curosity --have you personally experienced any of these Remington problems?? or are these comments based on what??

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Velocity above 2400 fps on hard targets starts causing bullets to fail. Also, extra velocity means more bullet yaw (tipping), early bullet tumble and therefore less penetration.

I think if Saeed were posting he would disagree with you here. True some bullets will be pushed to their limits however now days there are so many good choices...this argument is no longer valid IMO. Having said this, I do agree the H&H is the better choice for a DG rifle.

The bullet yaw problem is not solved with modern bullets. In fact it is exacerbated by monometal bullets.

Woodleigh solids, Trophy Bonded solids, Barnes solids, etc. all begin to deform with greater frequency as velocities go above 2400 fps. They even deform to an extent below 2400 fps. I have tested them and it is a fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodmnctry:

quote:

As for the Rem 700, there are 3 problems:

- broken extractors (It happens in dirty conditions, even if Boddington doesn't know about it). This is correctible by installing a Sako extractor.

- broken bolt handle (it is only lightly soldered onto the bolt body). This is correctible by welding the bolt handle on.

- accidental discharge due to defective trigger/safety design. This is correctible by installing a timney trigger.

500-- just out of curosity --have you personally experienced any of these Remington problems?? or are these comments based on what??

Not the first two, nor have I been killed by a drunk driver. But that does not mean the problem is not out there every single day. However, I did have a Rem that loved to AD when the bolt was closed. It was a stock gun - no modifications at all.

More than 50 people have been accidentally shot due to the Rem defective trigger. And if you have any doubt about the Rem bolt handle or extractor, ask a Marine armorer whether they use the standard factory parts or not.

Skip the Rem and get a good gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodmnctry:
375 H&H vs. 375 Rem Ultra in a Remington 700 --- which one to buy for a African plains game hunt that will also include Cape Buffalo. I am posing this question for a friend that wants to purchase a new rifle for an upcoming trip.

To your original question, your friend really does need to try and shoot one of each. Until you've tried them, big bores can really be different from even a cartridge such as the .300 Win Mag. And, I think velocity increases are worse in the recoil department than than increase in bullet weight. In my .375 H&H, a hot-loaded (approx. 2,800 fps)235 gr load seems to have much greater recoil than the factory 300 grain load. I would suggest starting with the H&H version, and if that seems tame step up to one of the "magnum" loads and/or have it reamed out to .375 Weatherby.

Then if he still wants more power and the .375 Ultra, he'll find the H&H very easy to sell. Buying the Ultra, finding its recoil intolerable and trying to sell it will be much more difficult.

If your friend has the time/patience, he could wait and get one of the new .375 Rugers in about 6 months and split the difference.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW, mine is an H&H, stainless Model 70 in an Echols Legend fiberglass stock. It'll shoot as close as I can hold (same POI with several different loads ), doesn't seem to kick that much, even from the bench (Decellerator pad, great stock design, an a Past recoil pad ). It is a little heavy and I've run out of scope adjustment to the right (good thing is hitting right in the center), so it's not quite perfect - but close.

H&H all the way for a cartridge.

I am not going to touch the the rifle issue.

I went thru the same evaluation and settled on the .375 H&H. The combination of speed, bullet type, weight and history convinced me. It is cheaper to shoot as well.

Well, I will put my foot in my mouth here and say up front that you guys that are bad mouthing the Remington 700 are simply full of shit!!! End of discussion!!!

As to cartridges, the 375 H&H is simply the better choice for someone that is buying their first big bore.

It is so very shootable and so easy to find ammo for or reload for, that it is the clear choice.

I have had the pleasure of loading 375 H&H ammo for two different guys on their way to Africa. Both used the 300 grain Swift A-Frame and shot such a diverse group of animals I cannot believe it! That gun is simply great on most any size animal.

And back to my original statement, if I EVER get the cash to go to Africa, I WILL be shooting Remington 700's......

If your friend is going to just have "one gun" for his hunt and use it for DG as well as plains game I would definitely go with the .375 H&H, for no other reason than having the CRF for DG and the wider availability of ammo in case something goes wrong, like he loses his luggage. This is from someone who owns a custom rifle in .338 RUM (which I think is an ideal pg gun), but uses a .416 Rigby for DG. Why have one gun, when you can have two .

The only advantage I see to the RUM over the H&H is flatter trajectory. Unless you need to shoot something big way over 300 yds, the difference in trajectory is a non issue. The disadvantages of the RUM have been well stated above.

465H&H

When I bought my first batch of 375RUM cases they were A$120 per 100 now you can get em for $63 per 100. So you can see where the RUM is headed. Now it may not be like that in the US but in Australia its pretty well finished. So I've stocked up on brass!

I have 2 H&H's & 1 RUM being a M70 stainless in H&H rechambered. If you like your friend definitely recommend the 375 H&H. . If you don't like him that much tell him to buy a RUM & in a M700 at that.

By choosing the 375 H&H you have a much broader variety of rifles to choose from. With the RUM you are limited to the M700 or the HS unless you go custom. And in a M700 its an extremely light rig, too lite IMHO.

Having said that out of my 3 - 375's the most accurate & scary accurate at that is the 375RUM. I think Nosler point this out in their manual. I think a RUM really comes into its own when you want to drive a long bearing surface 300grainer like an X bullet at 2700fps. It does it easy and within its accuracy node & with choice of powder to spare. But recoil is pretty bad, I'd say approaching that of my 404 Jeffery. Whereas the H&H is pretty pleasant by comparison.

Regards,
JohnT

Woodmnctry,
I try to stay out of the contests that take place on this forum. I need to tell you and your friend that I owned a model 700 in 30-06 it fired twice on me as I lifted the bolt handle to unload it. I will never own or will any of my children own another Remmington. Bryan

It's too bad that the most important issue here can't be discussed since the gun being purchased is a much greater issue than the choice of caliber. I would choose the 375H&H over the RUM every time and NEVER choose a remington because I too know of accidents and extractor failures with the 700's. Don't confuse the rifle used by the military with the scrap remingtons at the local gun shop. They are not the same rifle, except in name.

I've never been to Africa and have no practical experience with dangerous game. Experience is the great teacher but why is it that I cannot learn from others' experiences? All the above is to say that thousands of hunters through the years have relied upon the 375 H&H Magnum. That is the one I would choose. Plus, you can find H&H ammo just about anywhere. It's cheaper too.

Doesn't Saeed do pretty well, with what is essentially a 375 RUM????

GS

375 H&H gets my vote. I've been privileged to kill 7 buffalo, 1 Roan, 1 Sable,2 warthogs,1 Hippo, 6 Nilgai , 1 Brown bear , countless hogs, coyotes, deer,and 2 prairie dogs with mine. It's still a great cartridge!

Go with a H&H. As a very wise an experienced PH told me once, " it has something that mere ballistics do not adequately explain" For me, that was good enough.

_bb

Who cares?
Either one will work. Ones faster, ones been around alot longer with a proven track record.
Which one pushes a 300 grain bullet at a speed to kill a buffalo = Either one.
The Remington 700 is a great action, but like EVERYTHING else in the world it has failed in the past just as Holland and Holland rifles have failed, Rigby's, Searcys, Merkels, Mausers, Dakotas, etc, etc, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodmnctry:

quote:

As for the Rem 700, there are 3 problems:

- broken extractors (It happens in dirty conditions, even if Boddington doesn't know about it). This is correctible by installing a Sako extractor.

- broken bolt handle (it is only lightly soldered onto the bolt body). This is correctible by welding the bolt handle on.

- accidental discharge due to defective trigger/safety design. This is correctible by installing a timney trigger.

500-- just out of curosity --have you personally experienced any of these Remington problems?? or are these comments based on what??

I've owned two Remington bolts but I've only broken off one brazed bolt handle. These aren't mine though:

As a side note,

Isn't Saeed fielding a 375 RUM type (375/404?) on a Rem 700 platform in Africa right now?

I was torn between the .375H&H caliber, the .375 Weatherby, and the .375RUM. After shooting all three and considering similar arguments that have been provided above, I went with the .375 H&H. No regrets. Oh, and mine is a left-handed Rem 700 with the three changes that 500grains noted. I may be stubborn, but not stupid...and will get one of the new Rugers.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
As a side note,

Isn't Saeed fielding a 375 RUM type (375/404?) on a Rem 700 platform in Africa right now?

I believe Saeeds' 375-404 is based on a Dakota76.

With advanced pills, 375H*H has much to offer. With something like a GSC265gnHV it will easily outperform the conventionally loaded 300gnAframe378WM:

375hh-270fs-2670...................2033/2478(300yd)
375hh-270tsx-2750...................2252/3041
375hh-300tsx-2470...................2028/2740
375hh-300tbbc-2530................1827/2224
375hh-300aframe-2500............1813/2190
375rum-300aframe2750............2020/2718
378WM-300aframe-2900...........2144/3062

375hh-Gsc265gnHV-2670.........2320/3150
375hh-Gsc265gnHV-2900.........2538/3791e(300yd)

But if someone feels that a heavier gun, conventional bullet,less mag capacity,up to 40% more powder & 50% more recoil, resulting in inferior down range performance, is better for them, then by all means,go right ahead and use it.

Based on my experiences in Arhnam Land, Alaska and Africa I'd suggest the H&H. Its a proven big game calibre throughout the world, its user friendly, has more long range capacity than most hunters are capable of, and quality ammunition is readily available.

Obviously, if one is looking for a dedicated long range outfit, I'd suggest they are many other better options than either the H&H or the WBY.

It always amazes me on that when one asks a question such as "how to paint the house" there are those out there that would rather tell one what color to paint it and what kind of sprayer to use -- WOW! ---
This question was originally posed to ask if there was someone out there that had personal field experience (note: that means actually used the 375 Ultra - not armchair opinions). I personally have used the 375 H& H a whole bunch -- but have nada experience with the Ultra -- and that was what I was looking for --- real answers -- not armchair BS.
By the way -- I use Remington’s -- and have expended vastly more rounds through these rifles than I can even think about -- not one negative issue has occurred that I could even remotely blame on Green. I find it most humorous when the armchair experts start banging the "oh my gosh negative drums" just to hear themselves talk -- I sincerely doubt that most of the negative issues noted above are from reliable and factual sources. I do realize that any manufactured item on any day can have its problems - but doubt that Remington is better or worse than the "other" manufactured weapons available.
This was not supposed to be a discussion of “my Chevy is better than your Ford†but that seems to be the mentality of some individuals.
I would like to continue this discussion but am leaving to go shoot something -- with my Remington -- sure as heck hope the handle doesn't fall off that would be a bummer when looking down the barrel at Mr CB.
Opinions are like rectal orifices -- everyone has one and no two are the same --
"God Love America" cuz we can have opinions.
G