From the latest issue of African Outfitter, extract from the book The Way It Was by Eustice Sapieha:

"Another reason why I didn't allow people to shoot from a greater distance [50 yards] was simply for the spirit of good hunting. A good guest comes from America or Europe because he wants the experience and excitement of hunting dangerous animals, or perhaps only so as to tell his friends about hunting and shooting in the wilds of Black Africa. What could his experiences be when his professional hunter allows him only to shoot from 200 yards from behind a rock, or sometimes sitting in an arm-chair on the roof of a car. This unfortunately takes place today in Africa where they arrange hunting from behind a fence on animals previously captured and bought a couple of days before. Such hunter-outfitters should have their weapons confiscated and be forbidden forever to arrange or outfit a hunt, firstly because such a man is almost certainly a coward, surely a money-grabber, and always an insult to the notion of a hunter and the idea of hunting. The customers who choose such hunting should have their licenses taken away and be sent back home to shoot rabbits."

Mr. Eustice is sitting on his high chair, living in his little dream world.

If he has any sort of ethics, he should not be using a rifle from from 50 yards.

Why does he not walk up to the animals and strangle it with his own bare hands?

Everyone has his opinion, but instead of saying "this is the way I hunt" he has the utter gall to forbid those who don't agree with him from hunting for life!

He can keep his ethics to himself, and each of us will hunt any way that pleases us.

There are those who hunt as Eustice described, and they should not be accounted amongst those who really hunt.
There is game that must be shot from greater distances, but big game should not, in general. If SAEED has 16 or 20 buffalo tags, he may have a different view than those of us who have 1-3.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

He can keep his ethics to himself, and each of us will hunt any way that pleases us.

Well said!

With the passage of time I can't remember the author(Oldsarge?) but someone here on AR said that the question of "hunting ethics" is not about ethics, but about aesthetics.

Those who find themselves upset about the "ethics" of other hunters need to take a close look at their own conduct.

I am reading a book by a famous trophy hunter. He seems to be pretty caught up in the record books and hunting ethics. In one chapter he purchases the hunt for the SCI record rhino. He arrives at the ranch with his entourage and they drive out to where the rhino is being trailed by ranch staff(who have been watching over it for days). He then shoots the rhino and is overcome with emotion. A half day hunt and he has the world record rhino!

Two chapters later he almost has an aneurysm because Man Magnum publishes an article about hunting warthog at waterholes. Then he really loses it over hunting with dogs. In fact he even refuses to call men who hunt with dogs "hunters". As far as he is concerned they are only "shooters". He even has a problem with using dogs for bird hunting.

You might say "hunting ethics", but I hear "bullsh...."

"Those who find themselves upset about the "ethics" of other hunters need to take a close look at their own conduct. I am reading a book by a famous trophy hunter. He seems to be pretty caught up in the record books and hunting ethics. In one chapter he purchases the hunt for the SCI record rhino. He arrives at the ranch with his entourage and they drive out to where the rhino is being trailed by ranch staff(who have been watching over it for days). He then shoots the rhino and is overcome with emotion. A half day hunt and he has the world record rhino! Two chapters later he almost has an aneurysm because Man Magnum publishes an article about hunting warthog at waterholes. Then he really loses it over hunting with dogs. In fact he even refuses to call men who hunt with dogs "hunters". As far as he is concerned they are only "shooters". He even has a problem with using dogs for bird hunting. You might say "hunting ethics", but I hear "bullsh...."

You forgot to say that the author of the book you are reading also founded a club whose members pledge to forsake hunting methods that he has deemed to be unethical.

Bill Quimby

quote:

You forgot to say that the author of the book you are reading also founded a club whose members pledge to forsake hunting methods that he has deemed to be unethical.

And I bet many of the members of this club would do anything, regardless of ethics, to get their names in the record book

The subject of ethical hunting is very difficult indeed. I guees it's in the eye of the beholder.. I do make my own rules, which I keep mostly for my self, and I try not to critize people who feel otherwise.

We can never ever say that a certain distance is ethical whilst another is. The most important in my opinion is that one feel right about taking the shot (aka a great % of taking that animal cleanly). This perspective do annoy me from time to time reading articles/books.
For example a Weatherby Award winner, which they state have done a lot for promoting ethical hunting and conservation world wide. Then you read their books..
"As the Marco polo galloped away at 550 meters and in strong side wind I shot three times with knowledge that this probably not would be effective.."

Note: this isn't an actual sentence from a book, but it could have been..

What do you think?

Jbrown,
Which book are you reading? I think we all want to know.

Anyone who's followed any of my postings knows, I agree with Saeed on this one. I support legal hunting, in any manner in which someone chooses to participate.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

You forgot to say that the author of the book you are reading also founded a club whose members pledge to forsake hunting methods that he has deemed to be unethical.

Bill Quimby

Bill
I did not know that.

As I said I am currently reading the book. Well after posting last night I decided to put myself to be with another chapter. In the chapter on Ethiopia he admits to shooting three trophies, including gerenuk, form the back of the hunting vehicle. He was resistant to using this method, but that was the only way to shoot one as they would run when stalked on foot!


This from the same guy who was writing angry letters to editors for publishing articles in which the authors hunted warthog by driving around looking for them, sitting over water holes and hunting with dogs.

The author of this book, like so many who show righteous indignation over the "ethics" of others, seems pretty worried about the sanctity of the records books. He has mentioned that he wonders how many of X animal are getting entered into the record book after being taken using less sporting methods.

Heaven forbid some slob will knock one of his trophies out of the top ten!

I bet his trophies that were shot from the truck were entered into the book....

I say on "hunting ethics".

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
Jbrown,
Which book are you reading? I think we all want to know.

Anyone who's followed any of my postings knows, I agree with Saeed on this one. I support legal hunting, in any manner in which someone chooses to participate.

The book is Heart of an African Hunter by Peter Flack. I have it for sale on my book list in the classifieds. It will teach you all that you need to know about "hunting ethics".

quote:

The book is Heart of an African Hunter by Peter Flack. I have it for sale on my book list in the classifieds. It will teach you all that you need to know about "hunting ethics".

Good old Flack. I think has won some sort of glorified award as well.

And in case any of you see any of his hunting videos; DO NOT BUY them!

They are the worst so called hunting videos I have ever seen!

I just pulled the book from it's resting place and reread the chapters refered to above and my read of the facts as reported by Peter seem to differ from the above recounted reading.

The Mpumulanga Parks Board put out a tender for the taking of a specific Rino bull. The tender offer indicated the front horm measures nearly 37 inches and it just might be the SCI new world record, but would not surpase the RW record.

The bull was being dispached because of his age and he would most likely be killed by younger bulls, so why not raise some funds for conservation. That was the action of the parks board.

I just read the post above (posted while I was posting) this one and I have 4 of Peter's DVDs and have enjoyed them very much. I would recommend them! Of course my recomendation probably doesn't carry so much weight as others, eh.

I hunted Peter when he was conducting his survey in Zambia for African Hunter 2 and subsequently for the Safari Guide. We chatted about hunting ethics often and whilst we did not agree on some subjects he was a perfect gentleman and he hunted both hard and well.

If he has shot from a car and has published this in print then we cannot say he is not honest about it?

I have never seen his hunting videos but he writes very well and along with Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa.

quote:

Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa

rubbish

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa

rubbish

I am starting to warm to you to.

I really could not care less how honest he is, if he is a hypocrite at the same time.

Apparently he believes in "do as I say, not as I do"

Shouldn't he apply his own rules to himself?

And stop hunting just because he had to shoot from the back of the truck?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa

rubbish

I am starting to warm to you to.

This has nothing to do with this thread...but I would love to sit and shoot the bull at a campfire with you someday fairgame...maybe it'll happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I really could not care less how honest he is, if he is a hypocrite at the same time.

Apparently he believes in "do as I say, not as I do"

Shouldn't he apply his own rules to himself?

And stop hunting just because he had to shoot from the back of the truck?

Saeed,

I have not read this book but speak of my hunting with a man whom I could not fault, not in my book anyway.

sounds like this guy loves to see himself in print.!!! alot of people of that nature don't know spit about ethics or why we do what we do

Very honestly, I am weary of this topic.

For my own part, I have decided that if the fashion in which you hunt is lawful where you do it, neither I nor anyone else has cause to question your ethics. "Fair chase" is another topic entirely.

That's pretty simple. You hunt your way, I'll hunt my way.

mauser93 if you are weary of this topic you best leave AR as this is very popular topic on this site. I would not be suprised if it went a few pages long.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa

rubbish

I am starting to warm to you to.

This has nothing to do with this thread...but I would love to sit and shoot the bull at a campfire with you someday fairgame...maybe it'll happen.

Welcome anytime and whether you bring your rifle or not does not matter to me.

I have a couple of favorite definitions of hunting, and this is one of them (with some added commentary):

"Hunting in its purest form is the fair chase of a native game animal in its free range habitat. Anything other than that is an adulteration of hunting."

Note the use of the terms "purest form" and "adulteration" - the latter of which should not necessarily be deemed derogatory in this context.

Life is one compromise after another and not everything, including hunting, can always be perfect and pure. But it can certainly be good enough. And we should never forget that the perfect is always the enemy of the good enough.

Note also the concepts of "fair chase" and "free range" - these are somewhat malleable terms, and are fertile grounds for debate.

But that's as it should be, at least to my way of thinking.

The question whether "fair chase" and "free range" ought to preclude the use of certain kinds of weapons, aircraft, motor vehicles, dogs, the pursuit of put and take game on ranches inside a high fence, use of so-called trail cameras, radios, etc. - is the subject of much argument.

Even where any particular practice is legal, opinions will differ regarding these matters and some will draw the line differently than others.

Still, some practices are so far from the mark that there is very little or nothing of hunting left in them.

As one example only, if you put a tame beast in a small pen and shoot it, it is simply not hunting. It's pretty much the same as the slaughtering of livestock.

Not everything is relative!

But neither is everything black or white - there's far more gray than black and white, and far more room for debate than absolute agreement. That doesn't bother me.

I say, have at it!

We all learn and develop our own code based on that debate.

Here is another:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethics

If we cannot all agree to any of it then perhaps there is no ethics to hunting. This begs the question which I think it germain to the topic at hand: what can we agree to as hunters regarding our behavior?

Ledvm
Lane , I wish you would, here on the AR forum , explain why you would call Boddington's unequalled commitment to promoting hunting in Africa through books, TV shows, magazine articles, DVD's, and countless free seminars at trade shows and SCI Chapters "rubbish". If Craig is not an ambassador to our sport of safari hunting in your eyes, I guess we see things differently. Not the first time. But, just for fun, why don't you give us five names here that you believe are equal, or superior to Boddington's efforts.He would jump on, but he is in the Zambezi valley working on a conservation project benefiting lion research at the moment...

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I just pulled the book from it's resting place and reread the chapters refered to above and my read of the facts as reported by Peter seem to differ from the above recounted reading.

The Mpumulanga Parks Board put out a tender for the taking of a specific Rino bull. The tender offer indicated the front horm measures nearly 37 inches and it just might be the SCI new world record, but would not surpase the RW record.

The bull was being dispached because of his age and he would most likely be killed by younger bulls, so why not raise some funds for conservation. That was the action of the parks board.

I just read the post above (posted while I was posting) this one and I have 4 of Peter's DVDs and have enjoyed them very much. I would recommend them! Of course my recomendation probably doesn't carry so much weight as others, eh.

Die Ou Jagter
I Really don't know how to respond to this because I don't see what exactly you took issue with in my post. The title of the chapter is "World-Record Rhino", is it not? In the chapter he explains that it won't beat the RW record, but that doesn't matter because the SCI method of measuring is more fair.


I will have to go back and look at the chapter, but I believe the rhino was in a 20,000ha enclosure. He called it "free ranging", but also said that there were 40 rhino in the reserve. I don't know how you keep the rhino there unless it is fenced??? He did shoot it on the first day he arrived on the ranch, and there was staff that had been keeping tabs on the Rhino for at least a couple of days. I don't know how the parks board tender works, but it sounded no different than a privately owned rhino and a perfectly canned hunt.

I wish you would not call my recounting into question because that makes me look dishonest to those who don't have the book available to judge for themselves. I felt that I was pretty factual in my recounting.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Ledvm
Lane , I wish you would, here on the AR forum , explain why you would call Boddington's unequalled commitment to promoting hunting in Africa through books, TV shows, magazine articles, DVD's, and countless free seminars at trade shows and SCI Chapters "rubbish". If Craig is not an ambassador to our sport of safari hunting in your eyes, I guess we see things differently. Not the first time. But, just for fun, why don't you give us five names here that you believe are equal, or superior to Boddington's efforts.He would jump on, but he is in the Zambezi valley working on a conservation project benefiting lion research at the moment...

Dave, agreed! I usually stay out of these Pi**ing matches, but my attitude is, I'm paying for the hunt, and I'll hunt any damned way I please, as long as its legal. Everybody else can go ta h**l! You boys wax fat as long as you want to. Carry on!

Mad Dog

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
We chatted about hunting ethics often and whilst we did not agree on some subjects he was a perfect gentleman and he hunted both hard and well.

If he has shot from a car and has published this in print then we cannot say he is not honest about it?

I could care less if he hunts and shoots from the car. My point is that he decries hunting from the car, then does it himself!

I could care less if he paid the landowner to chain his game to a tree so that he could shoot it and enter it into the book. His "ethics" have nothing to do with me and as long as it is legal I have no problem with anyone's methods of hunting. What I do have a problem with is the fact that he and so many other record book obsessed hunters seem to have a holier than-thou-attitude when they are worried about other hunters getting into the book, but then break their own code of ethics when their backs are against the wall.

I am not sure how anyone can compare Boddington with Flack!

I have never met either of these gentlemen, but have read their books, and seen their movies.

Boddington has always come across as a down to earth, straight hunter. And he has put that in his books.

I cannot remember ever reading him taking a hollier than thou attitide.

His videos are also great to watch. They are enjoyable and informative.

Flack, on the other hand, seems to have the exact opposite attitude.

In one of his hunting videos, I cannot remember its name, but may be the one when he "hunted" in Chad.

I cannot remember seeing a single hunting scene in that video.

In fact, I remember telling one of my friends when those videos arrived.

He asked me to lend them to him after I had watched them.

Once I had a look at them, I told him he can have them, they are not worth keeping.

Yesterday I asked if he had wached those video.

"You must be kidding! In fact, I gave them away too"

In my own country, I've had to face the issue of ethics, and each individuals drawing of their own ethical line quite a bit in the last year or two. My conclusion has been not to comment unless the act I feel is unethical, is harming hunting or threatening the sport in some way. other than that, I pass judgement not by commenting, but by refusing to hunt with those whose ethics I can't abide.
I look at it as more than just the way you kill an animal, but how you conduct yourself at all times when on a hunt, in my relationships with fellow hunters, as well as any other person I should meet, in my ability to help others I meet who may need it and in my knowledge of the flora, fauna and terrain where I hunt.
I aspire to be like the hunter of folklore, who was looked up to by his community as a respected individual, because that is what I feel is missing from hunting in this day.

Should we shoot females with young, or pregnant?

Should we "ground-check" our buck before we tag it, and continue hunting if it's less than we wanted?

Should we spot-light difficult to hunt animals, that are all too easy to shoot with the SpotLight?

Is it OK if we shoot more than our legal limit?

Is shooting 10-15 buffalo on one trip OK if you have legally purchased all the tags?

Is killing just because you enjoy snuffing out life OK? Or does killing of game animals demand something else from within the hunter to be morally acceptable?

Can Hunting be sinful?? virtuous??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am not sure how anyone can compare Boddington with Flack!

I have never met either of these gentlemen, but have read their books, and seen their movies.

Boddington has always come across as a down to earth, straight hunter. And he has put that in his books.

I cannot remember ever reading him taking a hollier than thou attitide.

His videos are also great to watch. They are enjoyable and informative.

Flack, on the other hand, seems to have the exact opposite attitude.

Were you to meet Mr. Boddington your opinion would be confirmed.

I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Flack.

As to Mr. Sapieha:

He is free to hold his opinion, as is anyone else.

Perhaps he has enormous free time and financial reserves to ALWAYS get as close as possible (to smell the quarry's breath) prior to releasing the felling blow.

Not all do have such commodities.

And Yes, we have plowed this field before and I am certain we will again.

Personal Ethics:

(What you do when no one else looks on to criticize.)


Mine:

Can I make the shot with a very high percentage of certainty?

Will the energy and placement be sufficient for the animal at the range at hand?

Is there adequate space/time for a follow-up?


[I prefer close hunting after a stalk, that said, I will take (and have) a "long" shot under the above criteria.

I have been chastised by others for "long-range" hunting (shooting as they call it).

To me, the hunt is to posses/kill/take the quarry.

I love the chase, the panorama, the struggle, but, ultimately, most hunters are there for the kill.

(Though as I age the quest for the kill has tempered, a smidge, at least.)

Were I blessed with more time in the field, I would almost always prefer "closer" kills.

Quarry at altitude,due to medical condition being the exception.

With the limited time/funds available to the majority of hunters, the ability to take longer shots increases the likely hood of filling the bag.]

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I am not sure how anyone can compare Boddington with Flack!

I have never met either of these gentlemen, but have read their books, and seen their movies.

Boddington has always come across as a down to earth, straight hunter. And he has put that in his books.

I cannot remember ever reading him taking a hollier than thou attitide.

His videos are also great to watch. They are enjoyable and informative.

Flack, on the other hand, seems to have the exact opposite attitude.

Saeed,

Were you to meet Mr. Boddington your opinion would be confirmed.

I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Flack.

As to Mr. Sapieha:

He is free to hold his opinion, as is anyone else.

Perhaps he has enormous free time and financial reserves to ALWAYS get as close as possible (to smell the quarry's breath) prior to releasing the felling blow.

Not all do have such commodities.

And Yes, we have plowed this field before and I am certain we will again.

Personal Ethics:

(What you do when no one else looks on to criticize.)


Mine:

Can I make the shot with a very high percentage of certainty?

Will the energy and placement be sufficient for the animal at the range at hand?

Is there adequate space/time for a follow-up?


[I prefer close hunting after a stalk, that said, I will take (and have) a "long" shot under the above criteria.

I have been chastised by others for "long-range" hunting (shooting as they call it).

To me, the hunt is to posses/kill/take the quarry.

I love the chase, the panorama, the struggle, but, ultimately, most hunters are there for the kill.

(Though as I age the quest for the kill has tempered, a smidge, at least.)

Were I blessed with more time in the field, I would almost always prefer "closer" kills.

Quarry at altitude,due to medical condition being the exception.

With the limited time/funds available to the majority of hunters, the ability to take longer shots increases the likelyhood of filling the bag.]

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
We chatted about hunting ethics often and whilst we did not agree on some subjects he was a perfect gentleman and he hunted both hard and well.

If he has shot from a car and has published this in print then we cannot say he is not honest about it?

I could care less if he hunts and shoots from the car. My point is that he decries hunting from the car, then does it himself!

I could care less if he paid the landowner to chain his game to a tree so that he could shoot it and enter it into the book. His "ethics" have nothing to do with me and as long as it is legal I have no problem with anyone's methods of hunting. What I do have a problem with is the fact that he and so many other record book obsessed hunters seem to have a holier than-thou-attitude when they are worried about other hunters getting into the book, but then break their own code of ethics when their backs are against the wall.

I hear you Jack and will have to read the book to comment any further.

My attitude is those that promote hunting in the media whether by writing or by film should be applauded.

Saeed, I do not compare Boddington with Flack and my brief observations were first hand.

Never met Craig (nor watched his films) and if I did and did not like the man I still would not blaspheme what good he has done for the safari industry.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I hunted Peter when he was conducting his survey in Zambia for African Hunter 2 and subsequently for the Safari Guide. We chatted about hunting ethics often and whilst we did not agree on some subjects he was a perfect gentleman and he hunted both hard and well.

If he has shot from a car and has published this in print then we cannot say he is not honest about it?

I have never seen his hunting videos but he writes very well and along with Boddington is a good Ambassador for hunting in Africa.

I have read all of Peters books and met him twice, both times very briefly. He certaily comes across as a perfect gentleman.

BTW, he also writes (in Heart of an African Hunter, I think) about a hunt in which (he implies that) he shot a very big eland bull from the back of a vehicle.

I agree with fairgame here that , to his credit, he is completely honest about how he has hunted. I myself hate hunting from a vehicle but have shot animals a couple of times from the back of one, mostly due to it being a simple cull for meat and in one instance I shot a really great hartebeest bull from besides the hunting vehicle because I convinces myself that I had worked hard enough for him to take the easy shot offered. Anything can happen in a moment of weakness.

quote:

Originally posted by umshiniwam:

I have read all of Peters books and met him twice, both times very briefly. He certaily comes across as a perfect gentleman.

BTW, he also writes (in Heart of an African Hunter, I think) about a hunt in which (he implies that) he shot a very big eland bull from the back of a vehicle.

I agree with fairgame here that , to his credit, he is completely honest about how he has hunted. I myself hate hunting from a vehicle but have shot animals a couple of times from the back of one, mostly due to it being a simple cull for meat and in one instance I shot a really great hartebeest bull from besides the hunting vehicle because I convinces myself that I had worked hard enough for him to take the easy shot offered. Anything can happen in a moment of weakness.

I don't mean to imply that PF is a jerk, or to attack him personally in any way. My point is that he has a double standard similar to many trophy book hunters.

Very few of us who have hunted much in Africa can say that we have never shot at game from the truck. I don't think that(when legal) there is anything wrong with shooting from the truck except that you cheat yourself out of the experience of actually "hunting" your trophy.

I now refuse to shoot any trophy animal from the truck. I really try to stay away from vehicles in general when hunting because I don't feel too good about shooting game that I have spotted from the truck, even if I have to walk/stalk a bit to set up for the shot. But that is really about aesthetics not ethics.

My hunting is for me and me alone. Record books and the opinions of others don't have any place in this relationship. The pride I take in my "trophies" comes from within.

Jason,

With an attitude like that then you and I would get along just fine.

Cheers

It may be of interest to know that Craig and Peter hunt togeather.

Ah, ethics, the never ending arguement. We have law on one side and the totally outrageous on the other. Somewhere, anywhere in between we each stake out our own interpretation of what is "ethical." Any attempt to impose all of one's personal ethics on another will ultimately result in an arguement!

Ledvm
Still working on your list?