Rich,

See! That's why your missing the boat. You think a safari is about killing animals. It's far more than that and other than the killing obviously it has gone right over your head.

Mark

Hey Rich,

What you don't know about Africa is surpassed only by your obtuse refusal to accept what anyone who has more experience - which means just about everyone who posts here - in safari than you do.

The primary reason your clothes are ironed on safari is so that the little thingies that live in most water in Africa don't cause you problems. The heat of the iron kills them.

As to the rest of your bitches, how about trying to keep 'em to yourself. If you really want a no-frills hunt, contact Cam Greig and do one of his unguided, on your own with just some pygmys who don't speak english walking safaris in Camaroon. At your (and my) age I don't think you'd make it.

We are not 19 years old anymore and its not the late 1960's.

Semper Fi buddy, (RVN and back before you showed up).

I am encouraged by the forum's open commitment to allow examination of these things.

I concede, I am defeated by the great unwashed masses who cannot comprehend my issues with Club Med Safaris.

Rich
personally, I have made two successful trips without even a fondue pot or a wine list. Some of you would be unable to continue under such primitive conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I am encouraged by the forum's open commitment to allow examination of these things.

I concede, I am defeated by the great unwashed masses who cannot comprehend my issues with Club Med Safaris.

Rich
personally, I have made two successful trips without even a fondue pot or a wine list. Some of you would be unable to continue under such primitive conditions.

They survive you on here. They can survive anything over there.

They do NOT survive me. They simply consider those who do not see the apparent necessity for a minimum of twenty-three servants in camp as beyond the pale...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

I have made two successful trips without even a fondue pot or a wine list.

Well, you have been jipped, and certainly have something to be upset about. All of my hunts with CM Safaris have included at least one lavish fondue party.

Here's a pict from a few years ago, you will notice Buzz on the left, and Myles on the right:

That's an OLD picture. Did Myles even have kids at that time? Can't be Buzz, no hat!

Rich

Rich:

Stop typing. Pick up Horn of the Hunter. Read Chapter One.

First night of the three day drive from Kenya to Tanganyika and Selby's cook (by the way, he had a staff of 15) makes Crepes Suzette for dessert.

The point?

Safari is and always has been about providing a certain level of comfort and service to the clients. It is part of the whole safari experience. Robert and Virginia Raurk enjoyed it in 1952 and most of us continue to enjoy it today.

Frankly, what you are calling a distraction from hunting or pure costly excess is what most find to be so attractive about Africa and safari hunting.

If I wanted to rough it, not bathe, cook my own food, sleep on the ground, and crap in a hole, I'd go to the Yukon or NWT and hunt from a spike camp.

No thanks. That's not for me and definitely is not for my wife.

Me, Betsy, and Hariet Maytag will be in Africa living the good life and enjoying 100% of the safari expreience.

We may even have Crepes Suzette.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

I have made two successful trips without even a fondue pot or a wine list.

Well, you have been jipped, and certainly have something to be upset about. All of my hunts with CM Safaris have included at least one lavish fondue party.

Here's a pict from a few years ago, you will notice Buzz on the left, and Myles on the right:

Myles and Buzz just wish that was them!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Six black men in my Buffalo camp with CM SAfaris in 2008.
Three trackers, a laundry man, a cook and a go-fer.

Rich

I have to ask, was this a late season hunt? I just can't see how they could run a camp with only a PH and 6 workers.

Who did the skinning, road maintenance, game meat processing, etc?

The only thing I can think is that you were there when some guys were given a couple of weeks or R&R.

There is just no way a camp could accommodate 2 hunters(or one hunter after a big bag) with only 6 staff members unless a bunch of corners were going to be cut.

Now if you were only there to take one buffalo and a couple of head of plains game a staff of 6 might be do-able.

Regardless, I would bet they had a lot more than 6 guys around during the building of camp which entails not just the camp itself, but also an extensive road network.

Rich can you please answer my questions? I would like to know how/what type of camp CM Safaris runs.

I know that you want Rich to answer, but on my hunt in June in Dande (Mururu) we had:

- Cook
- Cook Assistant
- Waiter
- Skinner
- Skinner Assistant
- Camp Manager
- Helper
- Boilerman
- Criton (Tracker)
- Nyati (Tracker)
- Eddy (Driver)

Plus Buzz, Justin and myself. And those are just the folks that I met, hell there could have been others.

Late hunt, and just for Cape Buffalo. MJ had ten. I saw no other people in or around the camp. Myles had the safari car in 4-low as soon as he left the pavement. Road maintenance? That was funny. We did the maintenance, but we called it "Rut Rearrangement".
You only need a few staff. Specialized employees just raise the cost.

I guess it is a matter of how much better you expect to live than you do at home.

Do many of you guys have a house staff? Lemme see; maid, upstairs maid, cook, laundry staff, chauffeur, groundskeeper staff of four.

I must be a total failure at decadence school.

Do most of these African vacations include a nail technician and barber as well?

All this pampering and coddling is just a distraction. Any camp with permanent buildings is too much for me. Am I the only one here who thinks part of the African Experience should be getting away from civilization and all that stuff? Must be.

Rich
Old School

Rich, (sigh) you are a paradox.

On August 14 you told us, "I paid a $325 daily rate in SA in April, and we stayed in a brick lodge, with unending hot water for the shower. Electricity and all that jazz."

Just now, "Any camp with permanent buildings is too much for me. Am I the only one here who thinks part of the African Experience should be getting away from civilization and all that stuff?"

And, my favorite, "I must be a total failure at decadence school" coming from the guy with TWO doubles, a Jaguar motorcar, and a fondness of Cuban cigars.

I managed to stay out of this thread for five days and tonight my curiousity overcame my common sense. Lesson learned. Parks, out.

I probably had more staff than normal since I insist on being pampered, coddled and, dare I say, babied. I did not count the manicurist, pedicurist and masseuse since they only worked part time. Same for the bartender and DJ. The two female volleyball teams that I hired to play in the evenings while we sipped a Castle were not counted too. I have a Phd in Decadence and cannot stand to end the day without my foot massage and having a story read to me.

Rich just loves being the center of attention.
I want to be center of attention for one moment. While this was going on tonight I was reloading. Not reloading for the range, but reloading for Africa. We have started packing, double checking everything, malarone is in, rifles are ready, but we will make one more trip to the range. Moz and Zim soon.

Mark Young, how many in camp? I want Mike Jines volleyball teams. Although you probably could not find a pedicurist to touch my feet.

Will,

I didn't have any say in the matter. Besides SA is entirely different from most of Africa. We were on a game ranch, and that is how they do things there. The entire staff consisted of a cook, laundress, two trackers, the PH, his wife, and I. The trackers started a fire in this barbecue grill looking thing with a tank for hot water every evening. I did not get a manicure/pedicure, or massage the entire two weeks!

My Jaguar is pre-owned, as are both of my Double Rifles. I will confess to looking at a 1969 XK-E convertible this week. Same color as the '67 coupe I bought the year after I got out of Vietnam and the Army.

MJ,

You funny man. You know what their (CMS) camps are like. Comfortable, but pretty classic tent style affairs. The emphasis is 100% on the hunt.

Rich
DRSS

Eureka*!

I have the answer to the entirely opposite mindset I have from y'all.

You guys are suits. I mean you wear suits to work. You expect this level of extra stuff and staff.

I wear cowboy boots or Whites, you are wingtip guys. I use saddle soap, you have someone shine your shoes. I could go on, but I think I have made my point.

I go to hunt, and soak in the ambience. I don't need to be entertained.

It's all good, just beyond me.

Sorry to have questioned you.

Rich
DRSS

* that's Latin for "I have found it.".

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Hey Rich,

What you don't know about Africa is surpassed only by your obtuse refusal to accept what anyone who has more experience - which means just about everyone who posts here - in safari than you do.

The primary reason your clothes are ironed on safari is so that the little thingies that live in most water in Africa don't cause you problems. The heat of the iron kills them.

As to the rest of your bitches, how about trying to keep 'em to yourself. If you really want a no-frills hunt, contact Cam Greig and do one of his unguided, on your own with just some pygmys who don't speak english walking safaris in Camaroon. At your (and my) age I don't think you'd make it.

We are not 19 years old anymore and its not the late 1960's.

Semper Fi buddy, (RVN and back before you showed up).

This is really weird, I am agreeing with Lion Hunter again.

That's twice in month, I think.

I must remember to take my medication.

John,

This could be the beginning of a great friendship.

With apologies to Bogart and Cassablanca.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Late hunt, and just for Cape Buffalo. MJ had ten. I saw no other people in or around the camp. Myles had the safari car in 4-low as soon as he left the pavement. Road maintenance? That was funny. We did the maintenance, but we called it "Rut Rearrangement".
You only need a few staff. Specialized employees just raise the cost.

I guess it is a matter of how much better you expect to live than you do at home.

Do many of you guys have a house staff? Lemme see; maid, upstairs maid, cook, laundry staff, chauffeur, groundskeeper staff of four.

Rich
Your post makes it clear that you don't have a real grasp on how things work in Africa. Those "cost raising" extra employees cost about $50 a month.

The reason you only had six guys in camp is because you did a late season buffalo hunt. While the season was in swing I would be willing to bet the staff looked more like what Jines saw.

You never did answer, who did the skinning?

Most of the "extra" employees are not there to pamper you, but to keep camp running. In any wilderness area there is a lot of work that needs to be done.

You said that there were only three "camp staff" when you hunted:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Six black men in my Buffalo camp with CM SAfaris in 2008.
Three trackers, a laundry man, a cook and a go-fer.

If the trackers are out all day hunting with you that only left three guys in camp to do all the cooking, cleaning, skinning, road clearing, etc.

You could run a camp like that, but not on a long term basis. If you had shot an elephant all hunting would have come to a screeching halt for a couple of days.

The reason they were able to run a camp so short handed was simply because your hunt required less support and, being that it was the end of the season, there was not the need to keep camp in top shape for future hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Will,

I didn't have any say in the matter. Besides SA is entirely different from most of Africa. We were on a game ranch, and that is how they do things there. The entire staff consisted of a cook, laundress, two trackers, the PH, his wife, and I. The trackers started a fire in this barbecue grill looking thing with a tank for hot water every evening. I did not get a manicure/pedicure, or massage the entire two weeks!

My Jaguar is pre-owned, as are both of my Double Rifles. I will confess to looking at a 1969 XK-E convertible this week. Same color as the '67 coupe I bought the year after I got out of Vietnam and the Army.

MJ,

You funny man. You know what their (CMS) camps are like. Comfortable, but pretty classic tent style affairs. The emphasis is 100% on the hunt.

Rich
DRSS

If you were on a game ranch, then you had a staff of 20 or 30 or more. They run the ranch, do the fence work, cook in the "boss's" house, do the laundry for everyone, run the vehicles around, take care of a thousand items you are clueless about.

A game ranch has a large staff or it is not "a ranch".

If you were in RSA, then the staff was larger due to government intrusion in the ranch owner business requiring him to hire a bunch of folks.

Clueless in Idaho!!!

you nailed that one dogcat!!!!!

Rich, go to a book store or on line from any supplier,, buy a book called "White Hunters" The Golden Age of African Safaris" by Brian Herne. It will give you a very historical account of the safari industry, the staffing , the travel, the meals, the animals harvested by the pioneer in the industry. Standards were set then and certain standards are followed now. If you want to go the budget route,, check your library and check it out,,

I am very glad they ironed my skivvies and socks and clothes, the parasites and screw worms that lay eggs in there are real beasts to treat and get rid of,,,, be thankful! Some of those little buggers like to hatch and the larvae go everywhere, ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
John,

This could be the beginning of a great friendship.

With apologies to Bogart and Cassablanca.

You know what they say about, "one step at a time".

I mean, I hardly even know you.

lionhunter & john frederick,

I hope the two of you will be very happy together. Me, I'll stick to women.

I must have missed the post where it said I had to get your permission and approbation before posting MY OPINION here.

As far as the iron thing, they used hot water to wash my stuff. If bleach and 240-degree water do not kill critters, the iron won't either.

Talking to either of you is like wrestling with a pig. Pretty soon you realize the pig is enjoying the personal attention and you are all muddy.

Do me and the entire forum a favor and put me on "Ignore". That is, if you can still call what you have a life without me.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Late hunt, and just for Cape Buffalo. MJ had ten. I saw no other people in or around the camp. Myles had the safari car in 4-low as soon as he left the pavement. Road maintenance? That was funny. We did the maintenance, but we called it "Rut Rearrangement".
You only need a few staff. Specialized employees just raise the cost.

I guess it is a matter of how much better you expect to live than you do at home.

Do many of you guys have a house staff? Lemme see; maid, upstairs maid, cook, laundry staff, chauffeur, groundskeeper staff of four.

Rich
Your post makes it clear that you don't have a real grasp on how things work in Africa. Those "cost raising" extra employees cost about $50 a month.

The reason you only had six guys in camp is because you did a late season buffalo hunt. While the season was in swing I would be willing to bet the staff looked more like what Jines saw.

You never did answer, who did the skinning?

Most of the "extra" employees are not there to pamper you, but to keep camp running. In any wilderness area there is a lot of work that needs to be done.

You said that there were only three "camp staff" when you hunted:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Six black men in my Buffalo camp with CM SAfaris in 2008.
Three trackers, a laundry man, a cook and a go-fer.

If the trackers are out all day hunting with you that only left three guys in camp to do all the cooking, cleaning, skinning, road clearing, etc.

You could run a camp like that, but not on a long term basis. If you had shot an elephant all hunting would have come to a screeching halt for a couple of days.

The reason they were able to run a camp so short handed was simply because your hunt required less support and, being that it was the end of the season, there was not the need to keep camp in top shape for future hunters.

Rich

I guess you're not going to answer my questions?

Oh, water boils and evaporates at 212 deg F. The only way they could have washed your clothes at 240 deg. F is if they had used a pressure cooker.

And, most importantly, it doesn't matter how they washed them. The fly lays its eggs while the clothes are drying, but still damp. The ironing is done to kill the eggs, then the clothes are folded and put away.

Rich, we haven't had an "expert" like you around here for years.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Pretty soon you realize the pig is enjoying the personal attention

Best case of self diagnosis I've seen in years. Congrats.

I think we've all gone just about as far as we can with Rich. I would suggest we no longer encourage his rants.

Rich likes to inform us of his Ranger time in RVN yet he forgets that to qualify for the Ranger tab he had to attend school and listen and learn from combat veteran Ranger Instructors who had experienced what he was going to face upon deployment to the war. As a newbie in country he had to then learn how to survive in combat from other Rangers who had been there longer with more experience than himself.

I guess becoming a safari expert for him was much faster and easier and doesn't require listening to those with more experience than he has on safari.

Semper Fi, Bro - 3rdMarDiv RVN '66-'67

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
lionhunter & john frederick,

I hope the two of you will be very happy together. Me, I'll stick to women.

I must have missed the post where it said I had to get your permission and approbation before posting MY OPINION here.

As far as the iron thing, they used hot water to wash my stuff. If bleach and 240-degree water do not kill critters, the iron won't either.

Talking to either of you is like wrestling with a pig. Pretty soon you realize the pig is enjoying the personal attention and you are all muddy.

Do me and the entire forum a favor and put me on "Ignore". That is, if you can still call what you have a life without me.

regards,

Rich

Actually the ignore button does have its attractions but I must admit that I have some sort of weird morbid interest in seeing how far you can push the "stupid envelope".


Right now it's about to fall off the table.

lh,

only took six months in-country to get asked to run errands for CCN.

Rich
DRSS

jf,

It's a grave responsibility being the primary reason you get up every day, but I am willing to provide you with one good reason to carry on.

Hey, while you're down under that table waiting for orts to come your way, if that envelope slides off the edge would you mind handing it back up to me?

Thanking you in advance, I remain your alternative to cable TV.

Rich

Here's an idea...there are some hunts in the this world that some of us will never be able to afford, there's plenty I'll never see!!!

Trying to wiggle some daily fees down, still doesn't get license and trophy fees down...and I'll be damned if I'm going to go to Tanzania, and wash my own clothes, or pump water....I came to hunt, not play little house on the prairie...

Thats life.....the rules are set, we aren't going to change it, and arguing for four pages on AR doesn't do anyone any good...

Rich,

Two comments and one question:

1. You should be happy that your skivies were ironed. Ever hear of putsi flies? I bet not. I'll explain them to you at our next lunch.

2. I can do a similar buff hunt to yours with my Safari Company in Zinbabwe and it will cost around $1,200 to 1,500 less than what you payed. I will have camp staff of at least 12 not counting the PH.

3. Who skinned out your buffalo, salted it and then made biltong out of the meat?

465H&H

465,

1. nobody ironed my skivvies. It rained several inches a day, and I only had dry clothes the first three days, and dry socks and skivvies the first four days in camp. I looked like a drowned rat by day five. It was an adventure safari, not Club Med. We walked all day, got rained on about half of each day, and slogged thru the mud. Other than a different type of jungle, it reminded me of being back in Vietnam.
I had an absolutely wonderful time and Myles did not fire a shot. I believe I earned that Cape Buffalo. That is why it is valuable to me.

2. okay. But, we have to cut the staff number by at least two. A dozen people in camp is too many. That's enough to invite the Bulls up from SA for a scrum.

3. The trackers skinned and caped it, boiled the skull, and salted the hide. All that for a measly four-hundred dollars. I do not know who made the biltong, but I did not get any and there was over seven hundred pounds of buffalo meat that somebody got and either ate at my expense or sold and forgot to send me my share of the money they got. It's all good, but I still haven't had biltong from anything I killed, just fresh steaks and gravy.

Next week is good, lunch is on me this time. Cheap price to pay for a two hour block on hunting Africa the right way.

regards,

Rich