Have we been transported back to the pre-recession days?

There are two Cape Buffalo hunts posted here that are nearly twenty-six thousand dollars, plus trophy fees.
That's trophy Bull Elephant money with CM Safaris and some others.

There's a recession in full swing in this part of America.

You all know me, just curious...

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

Your trying to compare apples to oranges. People book a Masailand buffalo hunt because they want an honest chance at taking a 45"-50" buffalo and for the East African safari experience. Those safaris always will demand a premium price. It's like a Chevy will get you from point A to B but it will be more fun in your Jaguar.

Mark

Okay. I am willing to admit my total ignorance of the finer points RE trophy sixes in different areas. I AM just a rookie here, only two trips. One Cape Buffalo, the standard antelope bag, Kudu, Gemsbok, and Waterbuck. And the bonus" Caracal.

You experts, and I say that in all humility, need to educate us newer guys.

My thanks again...


Rich
DRSS

Rich, Patience, my loud talking friend.
I booked a 21 day in Masi land in 05 for 34 grand in Loco. When these guys get hungry enough or it get closer to the dates the price will drop.

This bad ecomony ain't over yet. Supply has not caught up with demand yet.

I usually never book before July 4th.

My bad.

Three years ago the new car dealerships had this extra sticker next to the factory one. They had cute phrases like "Adjusted Market Value", and the honest one "Additional Dealer Markup". The past two-plus years the same dealerships have had deeply discounted stickers on the windshield. It seems lots of people have lost their jobs, and in too many cases, their homes. I just didn't know that the safari business was above such things.

Excuse me. I also forgot it is blasphemy to speak ill of pricing structures in this one segment of the economy.

Rich
DRSS
shoot me...

Perhaps it is me but it seems to me there are fewer hunt reports than in the past. I wonder just how good business is for these guys.

There is little doubt some operators in some countries are doing well. For example, Zambezi Hunters. I think some are still struggling.

Time will tell.

Agreed. On an almost daily basis I say, "Where are all the hunt reports?"

OK! Call me stupid.

Trackers, cook, laundry boy, six people on the payroll. At a hundred dollars a day, each, that's $600. The Hilton honeymoon suite, that's $500 a day. Meals, $200 a day.
That's $1350. So, the PH is only knocking down $1200 day to drive three or four of us around each day to LOOK at game.

If I shoot a Buffalo it's another $2300.

I understand now, they are just trying to get by until the world recovers from the worst two years of recorded history economically speaking.

Thanks for enlightening me, I think...

Rich
DRSS

Rich, there is a reason why the hunts are unsold and it's called OVERPRICED. if they were so desirable, they would not be unsold. $30,000 to shoot 2 buffalo and nothing else is ridiculous. before the agents talk about how big the buffalo are, ask them why the space/time is available and not sold out. the recession is cutting across a lot of economic lines. at the end of the season when the time is still unsold, they will tell us about the great trophies we missed out on.

I agree. I have cash in hand, but hunts are overpriced.

same here. it's not that i can't afford it- it's that i am not going to overpay considering the economic times. if i want to get screwed, i will go to a whore house. these blocks aren't sold for a very good reason. MOST FOLKS CAN'T AFFORD IT! when the end of the season rolls around, they will wish they had realized economic reality and sold them at a minimal profit. anybody in camp is better than NOBODY IN CAMP.

I took my Buffalo hunt with CM Safaris in December of 2008. They had a left over tag. I paid the regular daily fee, but they gave me the Buff tag ($2750). Nine day hunt. They understood that $6500 and no tag fee was better than no $6500 and no tag fee.

In sixty days or so we are going to see prices plummet, IMHO. The issue then will be that people are not talking 2010 late season hunts like they would be now. Most people that can afford to hunt Africa also have these things called J-O-B-S and F-A-M-I-L-I-E-S. They come first, especially as we get closer to Christmas season.

I paid a $325 daily rate in SA in April, and we stayed in a brick lodge, with unending hot water for the shower. Electricity and all that jazz.

Rich
DRSS

If you look at the US hunting deals & even the Alaskan brown bear deals you can see how much prices have dropped. I was amazed to see New Mexico Elk muzzle loader hunts going for $5k or so & unguided hunting access for less than $3k. I thought such hunts cost more than African PG hunts.

You also see heaps of double rifles on the market unsold for the last 2 years at reduced prices. New double rifles are also appearing at lower prices.

The average hunter just does not have the disposable income or the flexibility to spend that extra cash on such hunts at the moment! I look back at my situation 10 or 15 years ago & now regret that I did not do my African safari then.....I was earning more, had no kids and took more risks in life then. Hind sight is always 20/20 they say.

I bought a 10 day 2 buff hunt in the Selous 2 years ago for $7500 US that included, TFs, flights in/out of camp, permits and all the normal items. If I recall I bought it shortly after the trophy fee hikes were announced.
I killed 2 bulls (38" and a 42") on that fantasic hunt.
The trick to doing a good hunt every year or two is to have cash in hand at the right time.

ISS: Your cost analysis omits one important consideration, the cost of the concession. It also gets very expensive transporting necessary gear such as fuel to remote areas.
I don't think we are seeing "bargain" hunts because hunters from Europe are buying them at the slightly reduced prices. I think there is always a market for premium hunting areas for the glamour animals. Most real bargain hunts are the result of cancellations rather than hunts not being booked. If you are retired with money to spend and can react quickly, let the booking agents know this and you can get good deals. I was offered a prime lion hunt two years ago for half price. It was a within 30 day deal but if I had not just had knee replacement surgery I could have done a 21 day hunt for $25K in Tanzania. The gentleman who bought the hunt shot a whopper of a lion.

Well one thing is for sure, the recession here is not even close to being over. Secondly, the entire world is being drawn into this recession. Remember, the USA spends more money worldwide than ANY other nation so our reluctance to spend money is hurting ALL NATIONS. Don't think for a minute europe has plenty of money to throw around. That is not the case. If anything, you are going to see more of those countries go bankrupt as many are on the edge already. Stay tuned for part 2 of this recession....and political interference is making it worse. The brok-er the USA becomes.....the brok-er the world becomes.

Actually, most of the ph's I know have done fairly well this year. most have booked their full quotas and had few cancellations. I really don't think you are oing to see a "clearing" at the end of the year. And for those of you that are waiting for that 60 day prediction, most ph's I know are starting to think about packing up camp in 60 days. With that said, I agree with Woodrow that this recession is far from over, and the next 2 yrs are going to have to go on a year by year basis. It seems we are continuously one disaster awar from falling into the abyss.

in addition to the above, I think the plains game guys in SA and to a lesser extent Namibia are sucking wind. The problem is that the prices are already so low that they can sit on the hunts for less of a loss than selling them.

All make some great points!

Consider the value of the dollar in other parts of the world.

We are seeing some very hard times in this economy. But like I have alwasy told everyone. If you do this for the money, get out! I do it for the love of hunting and seeing people i guide or hunt with enjoy it. The day I can take my 4 yr old boy is the day i'm waiting on.

I have seen hunts go for $50k to $2500 in all parts of the world. I have booked hunts from Africa to Alaska to Russia this year. IMO, I really comes down to the area and what game you want to harvest.

Unfortunately, the governments that control some of these areas just dont see it that way. So the Ph's have to make money to survive. Some charge more than others because of the specific concession they have.

It really comes down to simply, some have the money to do it and some dont.

I truly wish Africa was one place eveyone could afford to go to and experience. And the unfortunate reality is everyone cant.

Good Hunting!!

I was NOT picking on you Ray. I am retired these days, and have to budget. I am sure the numbers are not vastly inflated, it just seems too bad that a guy making 50-60 a year cannot afford real quality hunts. I tent safari-ed the first time. It was great, I would love to do it again. But, you make a valid point that governments over in Africa do not care about the economy. Those animals will survive til next year, and maybe then someone will pony up.
I hope you sell all these hunts, I really do.

Rich
DRSS
cheap old curmudgeon...

Tanzania is overpriced. It is that simple. Masailand has always been expensive. After the temporary lion hunting closure in 06 and the change in prices after contracts were entered into in 07, I am not going back. Until people stop paying whatever is asked, those idiots in the TZ government won't know any better. Should it be more expensive than say Zimbabwe? Absolutely! The government fees are out of control as are the trophy fees. Regardless, my best safaris have been elsewhere (Zim).



This year I took the money that I would have spent on 21 days in TZ and plan on the following:

Argentina ducks/doves-already done
Quebec ducks/geese-September
Zim buff/elephant-October
Utah- desert big horn Nov/dec

I hope those guys wake up one day.

they won't wake up until a few go under.

As usual, Americans think that what happens here is happening everywhere. Citizens of the USSR and other Eastern Bloc countries have a different cash problem. They have plenty of cash that they want to spend (launder). I suspect that the independently wealthy citizens of the UAE etc. etc. are also not feeling the pinch as much as working stiffs (or retired stiffs) like us are.
Just my 2 cents, Peter.

Hey Rich, no worries. I know you were not picking

And beleive me I understand where everyone is coming from...these are tough times!!!

I have seen more cancellation hunts in the last 2-3 years than ever before.

The good thing IMO is that it will all get better....when is issue! How long will this last? Who knows when?

I see alot of past clients using there Africa "funds" to go hunting in different parts of the world that they have not gone before. Nothing wrong with that!!

We had some great deals in 2010 in NZ and here in North America as well as Russia.

Good Hunting!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
As usual, Americans think that what happens here is happening everywhere. Citizens of the USSR and other Eastern Bloc countries have a different cash problem. They have plenty of cash that they want to spend (launder). I suspect that the independently wealthy citizens of the UAE etc. etc. are also not feeling the pinch as much as working stiffs (or retired stiffs) like us are.
Just my 2 cents, Peter.

Peter you mean those Russians in Moscow choking from the heat and the smoke right now?

No question America has more million airs more Billion airs than any country in the world times 5. Top 1% of any country can afford anything they want. It's the folks between 2 and 10% that are holding off and cutting back.
I wish no one bad business but its going to be a while before we see these 21 day hunts in Tan.
sold out. They are giving these away compaired to 3 years ago. My two cents.

quote:

Peter you mean those Russians in Moscow choking from the heat and the smoke right now?

Nope! The guys I am talking about are not in Moscow but in their dachas well outside Moscow.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
OK! Call me stupid.

Trackers, cook, laundry boy, six people on the payroll. At a hundred dollars a day, each, that's $600. The Hilton honeymoon suite, that's $500 a day. Meals, $200 a day.
That's $1350. So, the PH is only knocking down $1200 day to drive three or four of us around each day to LOOK at game.

If I shoot a Buffalo it's another $2300.

I understand now, they are just trying to get by until the world recovers from the worst two years of recorded history economically speaking.

Thanks for enlightening me, I think...

Rich
DRSS

Ok, I will take the bait - you are stupid.

You get what you pay for in life. There is a reason a Searcy double costs $12,000 and a Heym costs $16,000 and a Holland and Holland costs $50,000.

Same goes for safaris. Masailand is expensive for a variety of reasons. Go to Adam Clements Lobo area and pay a seriously steep price for buff and all the rest. Go to a discount deal in Zim or Moz or Zam and pay a third of that. You get what you pay for. In Lobo, see 45" buff and take your pick. Other places you cannot see that quality of buff.

A Jaguar (you have one I think) is not cheap. I drive a 1996 Maxima - it is worth about $2000. Both get you to the same place in the same amount of time. I choose not to travel in "style". I chose to get there.

Same goes for safaris. You get what you pay for. If what you want is a buff - then go to Zim and pay about $12,000 and shoot one. If you want a different experience, a chance at a 45" buff, see all kinds of game - pay the price and go to Tanz.

Why pay $50,000 for a bongo? Well, for the experience. If you are after horns, go to an estate auction and buy some.

You are paying for the experience.


You are not stupid, just not fully informed.

quote:

Nope! The guys I am talking about are not in Moscow but in their dachas well outside Moscow.
Peter.

He he no they are here fishing with me!and to sey it the least they got their ass full of us dollars!

Dogcat has it right but I'll add that the higher costs don't usually equate to additional profits.

A very large slice of the higher prices (if not all) is swallowed up by things like higher area fees, Govt fees, conservation fees, transport costs and higher wages for better staff etc etc etc.

As with most things in life, you don't get what you don't pay for and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

This is a rather misleading thread.

There are people advertising "rack" rate hunts. There are also people advertising discounted hunts, albeit only a few. As in any year, the discounted ads increase as we get into late Aug and Sept. You can't conclude, from the fact that some are still advertising rack rates, the the whole industry has gone cuckoo.

Further, you can't compare two areas and say "well if operator A in area 1 can do a buff hunt for $12K, then operator B in area 2 is on drugs for advertising a buff hunt for twice that money. Africa is not one country.

And finally, you can't figure out the wages of the 6 or 8 people involved and then assume the rest is profit.

I also sense some resentment that operators are not giving hunts away because the economy in USA is going through a rough patch. Safaris are a Veblen good, not a commodity. And the USA, as others have pointed out, is not the only country that hunts Africa.

And if any of you bargain hunters were for real, you would have jumped on my buff hunt for $7 1/2K. So this seems to me to be armchair pontification for the most part.

Dogcat,
In 2002, I paid $8,000 for a two buffalo hunt in Lobo including the trophy fees for the buffalo, a grants gazelle, an impalla and a zebra. It would have included a wildebeast, and warthog, but we didn't find them. Don't tell me it can't be done.

In 2006 I killed a lion, buffalo and some plains game in Zambia for less than $32,000. It can be done.

In 2010 I paid less than $28,000 for two trophy bull elephants (both over 50 pounds and exportable) including the trophy fees. If you hunt as hard for your hunts as you do your trophy, it can be done.

The bottom line is that sport hunting is a luxury item not a necessity . The people involved are trying to make a living and the African Governments are trying to pull as much money as possible out of the system.. They don't give those Swiss bank accounts away etc. Every one involved is just trying to either get the most money they can for their hunts and most clients are trying to get the most bang that they can for their dollars.


My fear is that as our country deteriorates and the political and social norms become more and more like Africa the ability of any one other the very rich to do things like going hunting in Africa are going to disappear. Time will tell and I hope we have a few more good years where it is even possible for us working types can still go every once in a while.

The African hunter's Prayer. " Lord Just one more trip"

Those in the safari business sound like real estate agents in 2007.

2008 will go down as the peak of the safari business for many years to come. If they are lucky the echo boomers will want to go on safari 20-30 years from now but until then we will see the numbers and prices continue to decline year after year.

Oh and the bit about African countries concession price demands is bullshit, when PHs can no longer make a living and stop bidding against each other prices will come down.

The news isn't all bad. It wasn't that long ago that we Canadians were sitting on a 60 cent dollar. Now that our currency is more or less at par with the US dollar, hunts that are priced in US dollars are effectively half price. Pick up a deal here and there, and it gets better. Economies vary, and ours is doing better than most.

Per Els


My fear is that as our country deteriorates and the political and social norms become more and more like Africa the ability of any one other the very rich to do things like going hunting in Africa are going to disappear. Time will tell and I hope we have a few more good years where it is even possible for us working types can still go every once in a while.

The African hunter's Prayer. " Lord Just one more trip"[/QUOTE]

I agree. Make your best deal now while you can. Don't make long term assumptions.

quote:

There's a recession in full swing in this part of America.

We just by-passed the recession in my industry...we just went straight to depression!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
OK! Call me stupid.

Trackers, cook, laundry boy, six people on the payroll. At a hundred dollars a day, each, that's $600. The Hilton honeymoon suite, that's $500 a day. Meals, $200 a day.
That's $1350. So, the PH is only knocking down $1200 day to drive three or four of us around each day to LOOK at game.

If I shoot a Buffalo it's another $2300.

I understand now, they are just trying to get by until the world recovers from the worst two years of recorded history economically speaking.

Thanks for enlightening me, I think...

Rich
DRSS

Dont worry, I will not call you stupid. However some of your comments can be really absurd. Such as:"PH only knocking down $1200 day to drive 3 or 4 of us around each day to LOOK at game" ISS, do you really believe that's all there is to a PH's job & responsibilities??? Do you really believe its just that simple?? Let me assure you, its not.

6 people on the payroll? we have a about 13 staff working per camp each year.

In Tanzania, the trophy fees all go to the government...not the PH or outfitter, as you seem to suggest. We make nothing on it.

I agree the economy is bad. But as PHs we all have to pay huge fees for PH permits, TALA, and Resident permit each year. That cost does NOT go down because of a bad economy. Each year the price of our operating expenses, i.e. ammo & other gear, hotels, meals, plane tickets ALL GO UP for us PHs (too). Again, NO Recession discounts.

If you feel the Hilton honeymoon suite is the better deal for your money...maybe thats the way to go? but you are really comparing Apples to Pumpkins; a remote safari camp offers alot more services and operating expenses (PH, trackers,driver, skinner, laundry, etc) then the hilton room (maid & a mini bar). comparing a hotel room and a safari camp is just plain ridiculous!

I hope this also enlightned you.....

Twenty six thousand dollars ($26,000) does seem a lot to this one time hunter for buff (in Zim back in '93) The argument by Mark Young that the great increase is because the "client" is getting a much better chance for some really large buff ("45" to 50" by his post) There were no such buff back in my one time hunt at a much lower price? The fact is that people like Mark Young are selling a dream. Whatever people want to pay for chasing that dream is what matters. (I shot an SCI trophy book buff within the first four days on the ground -and no great amount of phenomenal luck was required either -but that was just me - Mark Young's clients are getting the top posh treatment for hunting buff in Africa -and so maybe $26,000 (US, I presume)is worth their time. Personally I'm with Idaho.

Gerry,

It's not a dream it's reality. Check out our website sometime.

Mark

Mark

I meant no insult. However, surely, you don't say that all clients will drop a trophy buff by themselves, of course, or do you? I hunted in Charisa for some three weeks (not only for buff)and slept in a tent with a concrete floor, had a shower and a toilet available nearby (about 75 feet away) and ate meals prepared by native cooks under the supervision of an Italian lady (she even had a small vegetable garden growing in the middle of the African bush and made sure that the plane that brought me in also carried a 50 lb sack of potatoes, dearly beloved by an Irishman - and this Irish-American recognizes no finer cooking on earth than Italian.How much better could it be for $26,000?