The debate has quietened down and meandering through repeated arguments....

Peter, going back to facts - Yes Britain was ruled by Romans but never became Roman. My comment about English language and society still holds good. The British did not have a sophisticated language or administration of their own at that time or for a long time after the Romans.

More facts....you need to read a bit more about Indian history. The bulk of Indian population was not impoverished and ignorant like you claim. Until the 1800's and the mass unemployment of artisans, the rural and urban system was well managed by the various empires. The exchange of art, literature, trade etc. with other countries is well documented. The Indians were also great sailors along with the Chinese and the Arabs. Their literature was not just carved in stone. The ancient palm leaf "books" are well know from just the small percentage that survive. I have seen a few & my dad found a few among ruins in the jungle in the late 1960s. Starvation and suffering among the poor was a big issue only after colonialism and the imposition of duty on Indian cotton exports and the lifting of duty on Manchester cotton imports etc. You still missed the point that China & India controlled a very high percentage of global wealth and trade in that era and will again do so over the next 100 years according to current Western economists.

I have had nothing but respect for the Nordic / Scandinavian system of modern times (what little I know of it). The autonomous work groups concept in modern industry is a great paradigm shift in human cooperation and productivity. Your social and political policies of preventing teen crime etc. is also a major beacon for the rest of the world to try and emulate. During a very brief part of my career in consulting with the Corrections Department in NZ I became aware of the proactive ways of the Northern European countries compared to the adversarial system of the US, UK etc. The rate at which new prisons are being built and the number of inmates convicted for petty crime in these countries is amazing compared to your region. The same goes for mental health care etc. But then you know that many Americans will call you guys "Socialist".

Regarding more facts about Indian history - my claims of sophisticated Indian civilizations are confirmed by western scholars. Go back to 5000 years ago and pre-Aryan Indus valley civilization. At the same time that the great Pyramids of Egypt were built, India had a sophisticated urban civilization with roads, courtyards, covered drains, irrigation etc. They had written language too with administrative seals on record.

So much for "mine is bigger than yours" childishness. Regarding your proposed solution, you know that it will never happen and even if someone took over, they would never succeed in sorting out the issues. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan or Somalia and Vietnam - each people group wants to determine its own destiny how ever incompetent or inefficient it is.

Naki

you spend much time talking about how "civilized" some ancient cultures were. Please define what a successful culture is.

You might look up Victor Davis Hansons "carnage and culture"also-if you are interested in differing opinions.

SSR

Naki: nobody here challenged or questioned the Indian question, in fact most of us agreed. So why the constant deflection away from the original issue, that being Sub-Saharan Africa's inability to progress but rather regress in the post colonial era?

quote:

Yes I am well aware of the mind set of tribal people who can chop up doors to cook their food. I am also aware of them cutting out phone & Telex cables to tie up parcels to shipped. Then we wondered why the phones were not working. Such anecdotes are not unique to Africa or to tribal societies.

Oh really, why don't you tell us how often it happens in New Zealand, or Australia, or the US, or pick one and it NOT be in Africa or tribally related. Please cite real examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
But then you know that many Americans will call you guys "Socialist".

no shit sherlock...

Yep, India seems to be a beacon of intelligence in this dark, dark world of white oppression.

Case in point:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/9541088641


The tribal folks worldwide you so dearly love and have put up on this pedestal have had just as long as us dreaded white folk on this blue ball to get with the program. Why is it that they have failed to even remotely keep up?

I have said enough on the subject and if you really what an honest discussion, read what I have said completely & not selectively. Please stop misquoting what I said or making false allegations. It does you no credit at all.

Since some of you want to make this into a personal attack rather than a serious debate of reason and facts, I will pass. It is really sad to see AR being degraded like this.

God bless you all!

Same can be said to you... the facts are all there for you to see.. You just choose to ignore them.

There really is no debate here. You chose to try to turn it into one.

Bye

most sub Saharan African countries are blessed with MAJOR natural resources and the average citizen still lives a MUCH worse off life now than he EVER did during the height of the colonial era. I also have heard the EXACT SAME STORY that Lane posted on 2 different occasions from safari camp staff.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...8121043/m/2231098641
this is a verrrry long post but extremely worthwhile reading for its insight into "then" versus "now" in the DCR and by extension, into other countries in the region. in fact at one point the author references a report from the UN that speaks directly to the issue of standard of living in DCR, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. the younger members of safari camp staffs have no direct knowledge of how things used to be in their countries but the middle aged and older do- and YEARN FOR THE "BAD" OLD DAYS. but of course Nookyhunter would never want facts obtained first hand to interfere with opinions obtained second hand. BTW, the above referenced thread( which is actually a link to the real story) is almost unbelievable in describing what this couple fought through in driving across lower DCR. a jam-up detailed account of struggle against all odds. my hat is definitely off to Frederick and Josephine- undoubtedly the 2 toughest white people in southern Africa at that time.

Anyone want to take bets on the ratio of the 2010 GDP to the 2020 GDP for South Africa, Namibia and Botswana? (i.e. GDP 2010/GDP 2020)
I suspect the ratio will be greater than 1.0. I think this would be a safe bet even for 2010 vs 2015 but I'll cut myself some slack. I assume, of course, constant dollars or euros.

Anybody want to take bets that Kathi will ever waste much time providing AR with updates on what is happening in Africa again?

Rich

Rich,

Whats it to her how long we babble on?

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
most sub Saharan African countries are blessed with MAJOR natural resources and the average citizen still lives a MUCH worse off life now than he EVER did during the height of the colonial era. I also have heard the EXACT SAME STORY that Lane posted on 2 different occasions from safari camp staff.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...8121043/m/2231098641
this is a verrrry long post but extremely worthwhile reading for its insight into "then" versus "now" in the DCR and by extension, into other countries in the region. in fact at one point the author references a report from the UN that speaks directly to the issue of standard of living in DCR, Zambia, and Zimbabwe. the younger members of safari camp staffs have no direct knowledge of how things used to be in their countries but the middle aged and older do- and YEARN FOR THE "BAD" OLD DAYS. but of course Nookyhunter would never want facts obtained first hand to interfere with opinions obtained second hand. BTW, the above referenced thread( which is actually a link to the real story) is almost unbelievable in describing what this couple fought through in driving across lower DCR. a jam-up detailed account of struggle against all odds. my hat is definitely off to Frederick and Josephine- undoubtedly the 2 toughest white people in southern Africa at that time.

UN - the (or maybe one of the many ) down-falls of Africa!


...on every door-step...while the man-of-the-house drinks home-made alcohol, sits on his @$$ on his little stool, and occasionally gets up enough energy to deposit half a genome in a warm moist area!