quote:

I find this offensive. I feel that such posts should be made in the Political Forum.

Well, that makes one of you. If you don't like Kathi's posts, political or otherwise, I suggest you make the personal choice of not reading them and not commenting on what you read after you have not read it.

I had an opinion about Africa before I went there. After returning, my opinion took a 180 degree turn. Africa is like an amazing book. Exciting and sad adventure novel. It is a book I can not put down.

Speak not of Africa until you have experienced it and only after having lived it! With that I have nothing further to say.

quote:

Posted 27 December 2010 02:43 Hide Post
Blanko

I have always understood "one eyed opinions" to be a phrase explaining a deliberate choice to shut one eye and not look objectively - like looking through coloured glass. here is a Google search on the phrase http://www.google.co.nz/search...z=1R1WZPB_en___NZ340. Your reactions seems to be an extremely PC interpretation just to try and put me down. I have no intention of insulting handicapped people and I would really appreciate it if you did not misquote me. Please refer to my post on honesty above.

I suggest that you read the posts carefully and if required even consult a lawyer! I have not insulted white farmers. I have just suggested that people stop de-humanising blacks and other people groups. I have a lot of white friends and relatives. I have already posted my views on my kids dating any respectable person when they grow up. Some here have said that I was being naive.

You are quick to deliberately misinterpret my comments as insulting to white farmers and handicapped people. How come you have not taken umbrage to blatant insults to tribal cultures and black Africans?

I suggest that you look at your mirror and search for some honesty in yourself and I sincerely hope you find it. And if you find some honesty there, please ask yourself why you did not condemn all the insults heaped on tribal cultures.

Naki,

Cast the moat from your own eye first. I have been to Africa and seen some of the poverty and hopelessness that breeds crime and violence. After 60 years of independence, I can't blame this on long-vanguished white governments.

Mugabe's country has the highest infant mortality rate, the worst incidence of AIDS, the shortest life expectancy, the most violent crime, and so on and so on. These ills are suffered more by black Zimbabweans than by whites. Mugabe terrorizes his own native countrymen. The history of Rhodesia cannot be blamed for all of this and casting blame does not lead to solutions.

For your info: I am a lawyer; I am a former professor of law; I am a student of history; and I am a hunter. I don't need to consult any of the above.

I am out of this thread and I regard you as an uninformed, self-righteous, person who should be ignored. Go read some history books. Go reflect on what European colonization did to the native peoples of your own country. Perhaps you are, in part or in whole, a Maori? Cast the moat out of you own eye before criticizing others.

Africa has been a resiliant land. I can hope that the current horrible trends will play themselves out and that the land and its people, of all races, will recover and enjoy far better days.

Blanco

For an educated person you still don't get the point. Please read my posts! I never blamed colonialism for ALL the problems. I said that some the posts including yours have denied the impact of colonialism and neo-colonialism. Hence the "one-eyed" comment. I have also highlighted the problems in Africa. I see no point in your repeating it. The US has been independent for over 250 years and you still have a very high rate of crime & violence. You probably have the highest level of white collar crime (including among accountants, lawyers etc.)

No I am not a Maori. But what happened here was treachery. An agreement was signed to allow the colonials to trade but not to rule. But they broke the agreement and then denied any validity for the agreement for over 100 years. Some neo-colonials are are still trying to rewrite history & deny the past. Similar treachery is well recorded in history - even in the US.

Did you look in the mirror like I suggested? What did you find in the mirror? Why have you not objected to the insults heaped on ethnic groups counselor / professor? Do you know what prejudices you teach your student and what truths you hide from them?

quote:

Well, that makes one of you. If you don't like Kathi's posts, political or otherwise, I suggest you make the personal choice of not reading them and not commenting on what you read after you have not read it.

Do you own the AR forum? Are you a moderator or administrator? As member I have equal right to read about hunting and comment on it. I have equal rights to expect civility. It is unfortunate that there are some on this forum who do not recognise the equal rights of ALL human beings.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

quote:

Well, that makes one of you. If you don't like Kathi's posts, political or otherwise, I suggest you make the personal choice of not reading them and not commenting on what you read after you have not read it.

Do you own the AR forum? Are you a moderator or administrator? As member I have equal right to read about hunting and comment on it. I have equal rights to expect civility. It is unfortunate that there are some on this forum who do not recognise the equal rights of ALL human beings.

My, my, you certainly get your panties in a wad over a suggestion. I was merely trying to relieve your obvious angst over some of Kathi's posts. I also suggest that you NEVER go to Africa, your psyche could obviously not stand it.

Something to think about and be grateful for what we have:

"Zimbabwe must be one of the few places in the world where the largest note,
a Z$500 - can't buy you a beer, which costs $650, but if that's not bad enough,
then consider that a roll of single-ply toilet paper costs $1000.

There are about 72 sections on the average roll, so it is cheaper to take your $1000,
change it into $10 notes, wipe with 72 of your notes, and keep the other $280 as change."

Financial Mail, 13 June 2003 issue, page 82.

(It is cheaper to wipe your ass with bank notes) .... (save the toilet paper)

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
An open appeal to Kathi

You have posted several times about politically sensitive matters on the hunting forum. Some of them have been moved to the political forum in the past because the debate deteriorated into abuses and name calling. You are well respected in this forum and are widely traveled and very experience in hunting as is your husband. I also notice that after making the initial posts you do not get into the political discussion. I also find that most of these posts have a strong prejudice against the local blacks. The general tone of these posts are often "black versus white" in an unhealthy and polarising manner.

I find this offensive. I feel that such posts should be made in the Political Forum. If you want to inform people about the subject you could post a link on the hunting forum. JMHO & $0.02W.

Nakihunter

Kathi is posting news items that are of interest to African hunters here on the African Hunting forum. Clearly they are of interest to a number of people.

If you don't like them, don't read them.

If you don't like forum member's attitudes you can do your best to "educate" them as you have been doing. By the way, how is that working out?

Keep in mind that many of of hunters on this forum think that they know a lot about Africa because they "have been there". What they don't understand is that 90% of them were only allowed a very narrow view of the issues(basically what their PH told them or allowed them to see). Hanging out in a hunting camp gives a person very little insight into the realities of Africa. Many of these guys have never had a chance to speak openly with a black African and many have never had a chance to meet a black African who is college educated(there are many).

A good example of a "two safari expert" is the gentleman who stated that Africans are not motivated and don't value education. What do you think the chances are that he has visited a university in Africa? But you can bet his PH told him all about black's views on education....

Good points Jason.

My suggestion about moving stuff like this to the political forum was essentially to avoid abusive conflict from some intolerant elements here.

On the whole it is really healthy and enlightening debate. Your comments are interesting but if I said the same I would get ridiculed because I have not been to Africa! I find it really interesting how even lawyers, professors and other educated people can get their facts, perspectives and history wrong or skewed. Some get their perceptions confused with fact based on a sample of one!

Some people get threatened by views, interpretations and facts that do not fit their own mindset and they react in abusive or violent ways. Most folk on this site are pretty balanced and decent. I have made friends with guys whom I have disagreed with quite seriously. Some have invited me to visit them in Africa!

The more we realise that it takes all sorts to make up the world we live in, the more likely are we to be tolerant of others. It will be a real sad day when we get insulated into a one-dimensional society.

Naki,
Please, please, please, do us Africans a huge favour and when it comes to matters regarding Africa: SHUT UP!!!

Kathi, Thank you for all your posts.

Vans

You seem to fit the below category! Hope you had a good Christmas and will have a great New Year. Just don't mix up your frustrations about the political situation in Africa by having a go at the wrong targets.

quote:

......

Some people get threatened by views, interpretations and facts that do not fit their own mindset and they react in abusive or violent ways. .....

The more we realise that it takes all sorts to make up the world we live in, the more likely are we to be tolerant of others. It will be a real sad day when we get insulated into a one-dimensional society.

It was lovely!
And I believe you fit in the following: Edward Flaherty - “You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance.”

Vans,

kathi has innocemtly falling in the tender trap of of being in essence called a racist for expressing her rightful views. when all else fails just play the race card there is no defense for it.how gausch! [just my 2 cents]

quote:

Originally posted by usps:
kathi has innocemtly falling in the tender trap of of being in essence called a racist for expressing her rightful views. when all else fails just play the race card there is no defense for it.how gausch! [just my 2 cents]

Usps:

Kathi is simply forwarding (copy/paste) articles cropping up on different subjects - has not expressed any views whatsoever, in fact she rarely comments at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Vans:
It was lovely!
And I believe you fit in the following: Edward Flaherty - “You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance.”

damn that's funny-AND ABSOLUTELY TRUE!!

quote:

is the gentleman who stated that Africans are not motivated and don't value education.

Jason

I did not want to spill the beans, but I am a teacher in a High or Secondary school with 95% black learners. I do not see them as black learners but as children I teach.The unfortunate fact is that daily I sit with parents in my office that literally cry because of learners squandering their opportunities to excel in the field of academics.Often the parents did not have the opportunity, but the children are offered the opportunity and they do not use it.

Yes I generalize, there is 20% of the learners that excel academically. Keep in mind this a city school not a rural school and two thirds of the parents earn a bigger salary than mine.

It is an unfortunate fact that the old model C Schools which is the political term for old white schools still has a pass rate of ±100% while the other school often battle to exceed 40%.

Black children in white schools often excel academically since they are caught up in the culture of learning and academics which I am sad to say in general is lacking in our other schools.

I try my best and I am proud of my school.I believe that only when people are empowered to think rationally for themselves and are not forced to think inside the box with conformed thinking, we in my beautiful country will make progress.

This is not happening and yes in general "African children are definitely not motivated and do not value education"

Hell, Anton, don't confuse these people with facts- it might upset their pre-conceived notions that it is all the fault of demon white colonialists that the overall standard of living is WORSE NOW than 15-40 years ago( pick a country, PRETTY MUCH DOESN'T MATTER). when the president of a country disavows the HIV as the cause of AIDS in the largest/ most productive country in sub Saharan Africa- well, pretty much says all you need to know about what black empowerment has accomplished.

Thank you fujotopu for being accurate and reasonable. That is exactly what I said to Kathy. I did not call her a racist but said that others used the thread to pour out their prejudices & try to rewrite history, which I find offensive.

Anton missed the point that black kids are not motivated to take up western form of eduction. The blacks know that after 350 years in charge the colonials could not give blacks any dignity or a fair go. Anton may be a good teacher and doing a good job. I believe he is an honest and reasonable man. But we need to look at a different paradigm than just smarts or motivation of the black parent who earn more than him.

When I was in university in the 70's many African students came to India for education - from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, etc. They came to a former colony which had an ancient tradition of education and university system that was different to the colonial system. Today most of those countries have their own universities. Today Zimbabwe & SA are producing black doctors of international caliber. I personally know some of them here in NZ. They have achieved that in the last 20 years or so BUT could not do that in the previous 300 years as they were not given the opportunity or support mechanisms.

You cannot expect a 300 year old institutionalized unfair system to be dismantled over night. You cannot expect the non-industrial tribal societies to become modern industrial ones in 4 or 5 generations.

How long did it take the Western Europeans to come out of the dark ages? If you looked at the Mediterranean region as a separate continent (rather than parts modern of Europe, Africa & Asia), you will realise that the part that is mostly today's Western Europe were among the most backward cultures in the dark & middle ages. Technology & learning was borrowed from the East. Science, philosophy, mathematics, navigation by sea etc. was heavily influence by Eastern cultures along with the Mediterranean cultures. Even the Mediterranean cultures learned mathematics & science from the east. Today we do not count in Roman numerals but we use "Arabic" numerals which actually originated from India over 2000 years ago. The industrial revolution brought the big change to Western Europe during the 1800's. Today the digital revolution is making a bigger global impact.

Just look at the big changes in America in the last 100 years. America seems to have peaked and its dominance is now being contested by other Western countries as well as Japan, China, India, Brazil, Russia etc. 50 years ago those last 5 countries were no where in the race.

I am sure we will see positive changes in Africa and it will be very different to the past that was experienced by any other culture and it will surprise many people.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by usps:
kathi has innocemtly falling in the tender trap of of being in essence called a racist for expressing her rightful views. when all else fails just play the race card there is no defense for it.how gausch! [just my 2 cents]

Usps:

Kathi is simply forwarding (copy/paste) articles cropping up on different subjects - has not expressed any views whatsoever, in fact she rarely comments at all.

Naki

Have you ever lived under a colonial government?

quote:

America seems to have peaked

Naki, while you and Barry may believe that, I do not. A line from my favorite cult movie, The Last Star Fighter" says it all. "Things change, Always do".

Believe it.

Naki

Most every one of your posts mention you being offended by something or someone..

Guess what? Your opinions and views are offensive to me.

quote:

Anton missed the point that black kids are not motivated to take up western form of eduction. The blacks know that after 350 years in charge the colonials could not give blacks any dignity or a fair go. Anton may be a good teacher and doing a good job. I believe he is an honest and reasonable man. But we need to look at a different paradigm than just smarts or motivation of the black parent who earn more than him.

Our education system has been revised three times by the ANC Government to make it fully fledged African Curriculum.The reason why it has been changed that often is because it does not work. You see, Maths, Science, Biology, Geography to name a few is fact. To pass it weather you are from any nation on earth, you have to sit on your behind and study, memorize the facts, draw conclusions and similarities.

So sorry Naki, the clichè that it is a European curriculum does not hold any water.

I would just like to add the following (I may step on toes but often the truth hurts).Democracy came to RSA to fast and sudden.Typical African culture is not based on democracy. In the past their was clan leaders called captain's who made all the rules and followers had to abide by the rules or accept the consequences. Make no mistake democracy is the way to go, but to have freedom of choice, freedom of speech etc. etc. is good. However two main ingredients does not exist and that is responsibility and accountability.

A little anecdote to prove a point. If a learner is late his excuse will be "The bus has left me"
not "Sorry sir, I missed the bus since I overslept" -To be accountable and not blame failure on something else (like apartheid)seems to be a problem.

A happy new year to all readers and may God grace us with a happy and prosperous 2011. May the hunting be good and the shots fly straight!
In Afrikaans. Mag jy 'n wonderlike 2011 hê, mag God se rykste seën op jou neerdaal en mag die geluk jou verveel.Voorspoedige nuwe jaar!

To quote a classic: WTF???? I dont know whether to laugh or cry.
Martin Luther King, Jr. - “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

What form of education would you like the children to be motivated for then? Rubbing sticks together? Witchcraft? Computer games? How else are they going to become contributing members of a society if they dont get a western form of education? How else are they going to be able to make the right decisions in life. To get out of the slums and EARN a living and not expect handouts all the time? And to realize that the predicament they find themselves in is NOT someone elses fault or history's.
The ANC has been in charge for nearly 20 years now, they make the rules, they are in charge, there should be NO excuses, yet 99.5%(Unless you are in government, or have a friend in government) of the populations lives are significantly worse. There are people starving in this country!Some schools have a ZERO percent pass rate. ZERO!!!!! This is happening now.
South Africa did produce (Past tense) Doctors of international quality of all colours, not any more pal!
One of my staff members came to me the other day and said to me that as Blacks they lived better under Apartheid rule than they do now, and that his older children received better educations under the old government than his younger children do now.
How sad is that?
You going to still say that is the Colonialists fault?

Anton

Since you spilled the beans I guess I will join in: SA is the one Southern African I really don't know much about, and because your GDP is so high I usually don't think to include SA in discussions about Africa's advancement(or lack of).

I am an elementary school teacher and the school I teach in is made up of about 75% immigrant or child of immigrant students. Nearly all of these students speak English as their second language. Adding to the difficulties caused by language are the differences in cultural attitudes towards education. On top of this many of these students are pulled out of school for an extra three weeks over the Christmas holiday as they return to their home county to visit family.

I find it interesting that your numbers sound similar to ours, especially considering that your students' parents seem to have different ideas about education than ours.

I will say that countries that I have more experience with(Zam, Bots, and Zim) there seems to be a fair number of students who take their education seriously.

But when it comes right down to it, your estimate of 20% of your students excelling seems to be similar to what I have seen everywhere including the USA.

I do have to wonder if the apathy you see has anything to do with the possibility that students don't see jobs being available.

I do know that university graduates in Zambia are often stuck in low paying jobs that they are overqualified for because there are few jobs for the university educated. I wonder how long it will be before the youth in these countries realize that they won't be finding job that match their education.



JDollar and Vans

I agree with you that blaming the colonialists for Africa's ill is silly. The inept politicians in Africa are addicted to blaming the colonialists because it gets the focus off their failures. Unfortunately some people believe them.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
How long did it take the Western Europeans to come out of the dark ages? If you looked at the Mediterranean region as a separate continent (rather than parts modern of Europe, Africa & Asia), you will realise that the part that is mostly today's Western Europe were among the most backward cultures in the dark & middle ages. Technology & learning was borrowed from the East. Science, philosophy, mathematics, navigation by sea etc. was heavily influence by Eastern cultures along with the Mediterranean cultures. Even the Mediterranean cultures learned mathematics & science from the east. Today we do not count in Roman numerals but we use "Arabic" numerals which actually originated from India over 2000 years ago. I am sure we will see positive changes in Africa and it will be very different to the past that was experienced by any other culture and it will surprise many people.

Ashok

I know you as a learned man, but the chip on your shoulder is blocking your wiew of the world on this subject.

the reason why the region you are talking about got a head start were because they actually were abel to accept and intigrate new knowlegde when they met it.
thankfully our world has been shaped by people that were not scared about new thinking and inventions, and yes the nations you mentioned that is chatching up is doing just that by embracing new thinking and methods.

The ones that wont accept new thinking and just sit and point a blaming finger will be left behind again and again, as they use their energy on what could have been IF this and That did not happen.
well it did though luck, get on with your life.

there is only one way to succed and that is to work hard and employ the special skills that sets your region apart form the rest.

Also your beliefs about europe's dark ages are very far from being correct, actually i expected more from you, as you had the oppertunity to go to universety, it just goes to show that it is not what you learn but how you use the knowlegde you are provided.

I am aware of your burning desire for all to be equal, well we are not all equal.

The major difference is the abbility to go out and create your own oppertunity's, it dont have anything to do with skin color but everything to do with-

quote:

by anton
-To be accountable and not blame failure on something else

please to me the favor and go back. read, understand and accept that other people might know more on this subject than you do, and these people actually try to do something about the way things are going down the drain.

their progress are actually halted or destroyed by people from other country's that know better and have a preconcived idea about how we all has to be equal. (south africa is a prime example)

In denmark where education is free and of a very high standard, not everybody goes on to higher education, because they are just not cut out for that, other people with the highest education wont ever be abel to find a job, as they have no idea about how to direct the knowlegde in to a practical function.

we are all humans, but very far from being equal.

best regards

peter

I rarely comment on any topic.... however I will tell you all the difference between a third world country like mexico (where i was born and raised) and a first world one like the US (where I spent 13 years)..... the english killed the natives, the spanish bred them......... nough said.........

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
I rarely comment on any topic.... however I will tell you all the difference between a third world country like mexico (where i was born and raised) and a first world one like the US (where I spent 13 years)..... the english killed the natives, the spanish bred them......... nough said.........

Excuse me? The "english (sic) killed them"? Of all the crap I've read on this thread that is the number one, top of the heap turd. The "english" never killed anyone in "mexico". It was Spain all the way, Sr. You had a few French and Germans, but the influx of the English into Southern North America was virtually non-existent south of Texas territory (1834). You'd better brush up on "your" country's history, bubba.
Unless, that is, you still consider all of the western U.S. as "Mexico".

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
I rarely comment on any topic.... however I will tell you all the difference between a third world country like mexico (where i was born and raised) and a first world one like the US (where I spent 13 years)..... the english killed the natives, the spanish bred them......... nough said.........

Excuse me? The "english (sic) killed them"? Of all the crap I've read on this thread that is the number one, top of the heap turd. The "english" never killed anyone in "mexico". It was Spain all the way, Sr. You had a few French and Germans, but the influx of the English into Southern North America was virtually non-existent south of Texas territory (1834). You'd better brush up on "your" country's history, bubba.
Unless, that is, you still consider all of the western U.S. as "Mexico".

He wasn't talking about Mexico per se but about the differing styles of colonialism between the English and the Spanish. Geesh.

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
I rarely comment on any topic.... however I will tell you all the difference between a third world country like mexico (where i was born and raised) and a first world one like the US (where I spent 13 years)..... the english killed the natives, the spanish bred them......... nough said.........

Excuse me? The "english (sic) killed them"? Of all the crap I've read on this thread that is the number one, top of the heap turd. The "english" never killed anyone in "mexico". It was Spain all the way, Sr. You had a few French and Germans, but the influx of the English into Southern North America was virtually non-existent south of Texas territory (1834). You'd better brush up on "your" country's history, bubba.
Unless, that is, you still consider all of the western U.S. as "Mexico".

Almostacowboy, I believe you misunderstood- I read Patricio to mean here in what is now the states they killed the natives off or moved them while the Spanish down south enslaved and interbred with them. (Its Good to be KING-lol)
Have seen this theory put forward by some serious Historians and tend to agree with it. The cultures sure are differnt!!!!!

for Patricio Guadiano

SSR

The problem with Africa is that capitalism has not taken root there. There is not enough capital to support a high standard of living, and what little capital exists is not controlled by the best and the brightest. At the root of the lack of capital is the lack of freehold land rights. It's not more complicated than that. Owning land allows one to borrow money. Borrowing money allows one to purchase capital goods, which in turn increase productivity and allow the accumulation of further capital. The smart and diligent end up with the money. That's as it should be, and it's better for all that it is so.

The alternative ("collective ownership") is a fraud. The "people" don't really own anything in this model, it's owned and controlled by inept and corrupt bureaucrats. The capital stock in such countries is meagre and poorly managed.

If the gov't would establish the rule of law, and get out of the way, African countries would come along just fine. However, their suspicion of the "rich white man", their "social justice" lament, and the culture of corruption militates against the accumulation of capital in the right hands.

What you see in this whiny news report from Namibia is nothing more than resentment of people, who happen to mostly be white, accumulating capital and putting it to good use.

There is no law in Namibia or elsewhere preventing anyone, black or white, from building a tourism business. This sector is one that requires minimal capital, compared to most other types of industry or economic activity. The barriers to entry are rather low. The development of this sector should be a cause for celebration, and these people should be encouraged. Instead suspicion and envy are directed at them. Frankly, the reason most are white is that this is a people business, and most tourists are white. There is nothing sinister about that. Germans like to do business with German speaking people. Americans, despite their political correctness, like to safari with outfitters with whom they have at least a common language and some common culture.

Bureaucrats, get over it! Quit trying to leglislate prosperity. It will never work. You will just kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

You guys keep forgetting that the problem in sub Saharan Africa is the demonic white man who dropped in uninvited 400 years ago. if he(we) had never showed up, I am sure all of Africa would be peaceful, prosperous and enjoying a high standard of living with a modern democratic ( or at the very least, a benevolent monarchy), society. history is replete with numerous examples of how much better local cultures do when not exposed to the evil whitey influence. think Papua New Guinea, Borneo, upper Amazon Indian tribes- shining examples of wonderful tribal cultures not polluted by the evils of colonialism. please listen to Nookyhunter as he obviously knows things the rest of us don't, having spent considerable time in-country observing the situation first hand. i, for one, am terribly ashamed for being white and contributing to the lowering of the black African's standard of living by spending only about $175,000 there in the last 12 years(9 hunts, 5 countries) will Nookey was REALLY helping these poor folks by observing them from NZ.SHAME ON ME!!!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:
Originally posted by Patricio Gaudiano:
I rarely comment on any topic.... however I will tell you all the difference between a third world country like mexico (where i was born and raised) and a first world one like the US (where I spent 13 years)..... the english killed the natives, the spanish bred them......... nough said.........


Excuse me? The "english (sic) killed them"? Of all the crap I've read on this thread that is the number one, top of the heap turd. The "english" never killed anyone in "mexico". It was Spain all the way, Sr. You had a few French and Germans, but the influx of the English into Southern North America was virtually non-existent south of Texas territory (1834). You'd better brush up on "your" country's history, bubba.
Unless, that is, you still consider all of the western U.S. as "Mexico".


He wasn't talking about Mexico per se but about the differing styles of colonialism between the English and the Spanish. Geesh.[/QUOTE]

I agree with the first & last 100%. The Spanish were already an interbred people with Arab / African heritage from long ago. The mind set of the British and the Spanish Colonials was different IMO.

Peter, my friend. It is unfortunate that you misunderstand and miss the actual point. The European development also coincided with colonial expansion and that is where the opportunities were "created". Capital in the form new land, natural resources etc. was virtually free. Some of the people even got subsidies from the mother country - for example many English people who emigrated to NZ got a subsidy and free travel by ship. This happened even in the 1960s and early 70s! There are no more new continents left to colonise.

My question was - how long does it take a tribal society to evolve and successfully integrate into a modern industrial system? It is in this context that I referred to the dark ages of Europe.

Yes accountability is an issue and I do not believe that many colonial administrations were accountable for the welfare of the locals or for the colonial rulers' laws. Robert Clive the first Viceroy of India, went there as a cabin boy and ended up as Viceroy. He was so corrupt that he was publicly exposed and humiliated. He claimed that he was actually proud of his restrain considering the opportunities he had! He committed suicide as he had no sympathisers in Britain. There are many such examples in history. The corruption among British bureaucrats in the colonies is legendary.

Yes there are some who are into blame casting and part of that is a political position. You also have many African who in the last 20 years have become well educated professionals and are providing leadership in their fields not just in Africa but in other countries as well.

Peter, my comment about non-Mediterranean Europe was not intend to offend your Nordic / Scandinavian sentiments my friend. I was trying to show a broad trend across history in many cultures and how development of cultures varies and even West Europeans had a humble origin.

By the way, this is not due to a chip on my shoulder but partly a result of what I have read. It is just a non-European perspective that tries to look at history from other view points. You can do literary searches in libraries and journals around the world and find similar views.

Peter, the part about "equality" is again a contradiction. Equal opportunity is not the same as equal rights. When the slaves in the US were liberated in the 1860's what opportunity did they have to make use of their new freedom and "rights"? Systematic oppression without infrastructure and disruption of traditional structures does not amount to providing opportunity. Again there are many scholars and experts who conclude this, not just me. It is not about blame but about acknowledgment and recognition. One of the fundamental principles of negotiated settlement of conflict is to acknowledge and recognise facts and sentiments. One does not have to agree and adopt the same position as another but it is necessary to acknowledge the facts.

Blame is also a two fold contradiction. It is factually and morally wrong to blame all problems on colonialism just as it is to blame all the problems on black society and culture. That has been my point all along. There are a myriad reasons for the current problems in Africa. I started this debate right at the beginning by pointing out that others had missed out the role that the impact colonialism played in today's African problems. It is not a blame but a recognition and an acknowledgment of some facts.

Someone commented in jest about tribal societies in the Amazon, PNG etc. But he does not know how close to the truth he was. Many scholars have argues for decades that Japan & Germany recovered from WW2 PARTLY because they did not have to worry about the negative impacts of colonialism. They just built on their own capital and expertise with modifications and adaptation. They did not have to totally replace one system with another totally new one. All the former colonies had to rebuild a totally new system after trying to make amends (partly and unsuccessfully in many cases) for the old system.

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The European went to far away lands in brave and enterprising ventures and took lands in the name of God, King & honour. Now the slimy and evil Chines are playing the same free market and gaining control of so many countries in the African continent, the Pacific islands, many Asian countries and even the former Soviet republics. oh...I forgot...it is the black man's fault. Why can't he just come and ask the white man for help and assistance instead of going to the evil Chines? Yes it is the black man's fault indeed!

Naki:

I guess it could be looked on as part and parcel of evolution - I note you have tactfully avoided any reference to Arab or Indian influence in 'black' Africa. The Arab slave trade certainly did not paint a rosy picture and if its any consolation to the west african slaves that went to America, the current President of the USA is a 'darker shade of pale'

Whilst the colonialists of European descent have in fact left visible evidence of their tenure in those lands and still doing so in varying forms and in particular, vast measures of uncontrollable financial assistance, what have the Arabs and Indians contributed, before or after?

If one wishes to analyze who is truly responsible for plundering the economies and being racially prejudiced against the people of these African states, more fingers seem to point in the direction of the Asian communities of Indian origin. Would that not be the main reason why the "last King of Scotland" literally booted the Indians out of Uganda?

Mass exodus of Chinese nationals? - they have run out of breathing space back home and the best solution is Africa, almost uninhabited in comparison to China, to get a firm foothold, peddle their cheap technology and eventually overrun the place. No such possibility for them in India.

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Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Peter, my comment about non-Mediterranean Europe was not intend to offend your Nordic / Scandinavian sentiments my friend. I was trying to show a broad trend across history in many cultures and how development of cultures varies and even West Europeans had a humble origin.

Naki

You are wasting your time. Do you really believe that anyone here could possibly accept that their ancestors were not the most advanced people of their time?

Next you will be telling us that Jesus did not have blond hair and blue eyes....

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Originally posted by fujotupu:
Would that not be the main reason why the "last King of Scotland" literally booted the Indians out of Uganda?

You are correct. And if Idi Amin did it, then you know that it was the correct and moral thing to do.

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Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

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America seems to have peaked

Naki, while you and Barry may believe that, I do not. A line from my favorite cult movie, The Last Star Fighter" says it all. "Things change, Always do".

Believe it.

Bingo. That is where Naki is coming from. Eventually it always comes out.

Naki,

You are determined to make this about race and class when your responders keep talking about a meritocracy.
Your refernces are to "many Scholars" and "they say", I am willing to bet that many here on this thread can match you reference for reference. I will start with Victor Davis Hanson who has written extensively about the rise of european culture and its basis in induvidual ownership. I will also reference the many treaties with NA leaders here in the US-Which tribal leader gets to make the treaty and who decides? I SAY I am the chief-who are you to dispute it--that is one of the primary problems with tribalism.

SSR

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Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Peter, my friend. It is unfortunate that you misunderstand and miss the actual point. The European development also coincided with colonial expansion and that is where the opportunities were "created". Capital in the form new land, natural resources etc. was virtually free. Some of the people even got subsidies from the mother country - for example many English people who emigrated to NZ got a subsidy and free travel by ship. This happened even in the 1960s and early 70s! There are no more new continents left to colonise.

Ashok, this is not new or singled out to africa or asia, europe have allways expanded within and outside of their borders, romans taking over most of europe and asia minor before christ was born, then degenerating and being beaten by other tribes that went in and devided the great roman impire.
the nordic tribes that took over england and north europe in several turns, then some of them turning christian and doing it all over again, same tribes that went to the US before it became in fasion by the guys from the south of europe. all of this is a naturel way of evolving, but it was not all of these people that went, most stayed at home doing nothing but the ones that went, went because of the desire to make the most of the cards they were dealt.

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My question was - how long does it take a tribal society to evolve and successfully integrate into a modern industrial system? It is in this context that I referred to the dark ages of Europe.

Honestly i dont think that the tribal society is to blame, as when i see a lot of the european industries still being run by old familly groups as they have been for several century's, i dont think it is about tribal society, but about personal determination.

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Yes accountability is an issue and I do not believe that many colonial administrations were accountable for the welfare of the locals or for the colonial rulers' laws. Robert Clive the first Viceroy of India, went there as a cabin boy and ended up as Viceroy. He was so corrupt that he was publicly exposed and humiliated. He claimed that he was actually proud of his restrain considering the opportunities he had! He committed suicide as he had no sympathisers in Britain. There are many such examples in history. The corruption among British bureaucrats in the colonies is legendary.

this is true, just as true as the corruption of indian officials is legendary today, along with Itialien, Spanish, russian and African etc. it has allways been like that if you want something and the general rule says that this is not easyly aquired, then there will allways be somebody making money on it by circumwenting the system. old news and not something you will get rid of in the next few life times.

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Yes there are some who are into blame casting and part of that is a political position. You also have many African who in the last 20 years have become well educated professionals and are providing leadership in their fields not just in Africa but in other countries as well.

yep but that is because of the those few people exelling were determined to do so, in denmark we have many, many more africans whith equal oppertunitys, where only the very few actually makes something of themselfs other than drugdealers or system leaches.

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Peter, my comment about non-Mediterranean Europe was not intend to offend your Nordic / Scandinavian sentiments my friend. I was trying to show a broad trend across history in many cultures and how development of cultures varies and even West Europeans had a humble origin.

ashok no offence taken, i am just not agreeing with your conclusions on the historic obsevations.

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By the way, this is not due to a chip on my shoulder but partly a result of what I have read. It is just a non-European perspective that tries to look at history from other view points. You can do literary searches in libraries and journals around the world and find similar views.

i have seen similar views before but still dont agree with them, ashok we have known eachother for quite a while, and it has been my observation that this subject is a bit of a red heering with you, that is quite all right with me, we all have oppinions, it just seems to me that you actually get some good responces from people with a lot more expirence in this field but because you disagre you chose to ignore it as true, this worries me a bit

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Peter, the part about "equality" is again a contradiction. Equal opportunity is not the same as equal rights. When the slaves in the US were liberated in the 1860's what opportunity did they have to make use of their new freedom and "rights"? Systematic oppression without infrastructure and disruption of traditional structures does not amount to providing opportunity. Again there are many scholars and experts who conclude this, not just me. It is not about blame but about acknowledgment and recognition. One of the fundamental principles of negotiated settlement of conflict is to acknowledge and recognise facts and sentiments. One does not have to agree and adopt the same position as another but it is necessary to acknowledge the facts.

but when this piece of history is pulled out every time, the "poor" ancestors of the slaves wants something new, or feel that they actually have to get off their ass to make something of themselfs, then that piece of history becomes a lame duck and a provocation to all who actually have to work for a living.

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Blame is also a two fold contradiction. It is factually and morally wrong to blame all problems on colonialism just as it is to blame all the problems on black society and culture. That has been my point all along. There are a myriad reasons for the current problems in Africa. I started this debate right at the beginning by pointing out that others had missed out the role that the impact colonialism played in today's African problems. It is not a blame but a recognition and an acknowledgment of some facts.

I know that i wil proberly be labeled a racist, but actually dont care anymore, slackers are slackers, we can all be green for all i care, i have just seen a tendency for the greens from africa to be more prone to sit on thier hands and expect to be fed by everyone else, and it is actually never their fault, i have chosen to work like a madman, so i can leave a legasy for my children, and it pisses me off to no end when i see the people who had the same chances as i did, sit with their hands out expecting that because their ancestors were mistreated, they have a get out of work free card.

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Someone commented in jest about tribal societies in the Amazon, PNG etc. But he does not know how close to the truth he was. Many scholars have argues for decades that Japan & Germany recovered from WW2 PARTLY because they did not have to worry about the negative impacts of colonialism. They just built on their own capital and expertise with modifications and adaptation. They did not have to totally replace one system with another totally new one. All the former colonies had to rebuild a totally new system after trying to make amends (partly and unsuccessfully in many cases) for the old system.

this is where i think you are wrong, germany has been colonialised many many times, but they allways come out on top since they just work their way out of the changes of time, instead of waiting for a undeserved handout time and time again.
sorry if this seems a bit heated but i am tired and sick to the bone of PC excuses of the less fortunated, which all seems to be needing a bit more patinces and a lot more money from my region of the world, and when they need it the most they pull out the "oh poor me, i was mistreated by the evil white people, that bought slaves from my ancestors" card

best

peter

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Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Peter, my comment about non-Mediterranean Europe was not intend to offend your Nordic / Scandinavian sentiments my friend. I was trying to show a broad trend across history in many cultures and how development of cultures varies and even West Europeans had a humble origin.

Naki

You are wasting your time. Do you really believe that anyone here could possibly accept that their ancestors were not the most advanced people of their time?

Jbrown, i dont know you or where you came from, but if you tell me that your ancestors were not were advanced, i am very inclined to belive you

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Next you will be telling us that Jesus did not have blond hair and blue eyes....

i think for the region he came from, he would proberly have brown hair and brown eye's, but it really dont matter to me