Well said Kim.

To the others who resorted to name calling and ridiculing me, just do yourselves a favour and read my posts objectively. My comments were not racist, I just challenging prejudice and de-humanising a particular people group.

Just because Mugabe re-writes history does not make it right for you folk to do it as well.

Accepting all human being as equal to me is critical. Any person of any race is welcome in my home & welcome at my table and will be always be treated with respect. Any honest and hardworking young person with decent values is welcome to date my kids when they are old enough to date. If my grand kids are of mixed race from any where in the world that does not bother me. I will certainly not teach them to hate or de-humanise any particular people group.

why don't you ask an Ndebele tribesman living in Matabele Province what his opinion is of Mugabe's North Korean trained( and Shona staffed) 5th brigade when they came into his village in 1984-87 and gutted every man, women and child they found. i have heard these horror stories first hand. HAVE YOU??? don't presume to lecture me on how bad white colonialism was and how once blacks take over, everything comes right. biggest pile of bullshit from someone with no first hand knowledge i have ever heard. no one can dehumanize a black man like another black man. and it has NOTHING to do with skin color- it has EVERYTHING to do with tribal affiliation!

"The history of Africa, much like the West, has proven that prosperity does not equal justice, nor does democracy ensure it."
and i suppose you think minority tribes in various African countries are now getting justice? are you that naive?
so you really think Zimbabwe has a democracy. evidently you didn't read the UN election monitors report concerning the last Zim. election. Mugabe was "elected" to his current position through massive voter fraud and intimidation/violence. the bleeding hearts on this forum can not seem to come to grips with the fact that African politics is all about tribal loyalty( and/or collateral bribery) and NOT about national patriotism. ask a black Zimbabwean where his loyalty lies and the answer isn't Zimbabwe- it is his Ndebele/ Tonga/ Shona tribal leadership.

Ambition's chief engines are education and capital.

Not race. Not no way and not no how.

Don't mistake poor and corrupt leadership for innate poverty or corruption of spirit.

Namibia is a beacon of stability. We can only hope for a better approach to equality of opportunity from Namibian leaders than we have seen from other nations in "liberated" Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Well said Kim.

To the others who resorted to name calling and ridiculing me, just do yourselves a favour and read my posts objectively. My comments were not racist, I just challenging prejudice and de-humanising a particular people group.

Just because Mugabe re-writes history does not make it right for you folk to do it as well.

Accepting all human being as equal to me is critical. Any person of any race is welcome in my home & welcome at my table and will be always be treated with respect. Any honest and hardworking young person with decent values is welcome to date my kids when they are old enough to date. If my grand kids are of mixed race from any where in the world that does not bother me. I will certainly not teach them to hate or de-humanise any particular people group.

brother, are you naive.

quote:

Don't these politicians see that the more they make these threats of redistribution, the further they send their economies down the drain?

tell it to obama

Jdollar

Your foul mouth does not show any exposure to human decency or etiquette or honesty! Do yourself some service and read what I have written. Be honest in quoting me. I have not said anywhere that everything will be fine when the black man takes over. Yes I did highlight that most earlier posts seemed to deny the harm done by colonialism and its roles in moulding subsequent history. Yes tribalism is a real problem in Africa. I have said that before and in many other posts as well. You are conveniently forgetting that the colonials actually encouraged tribal divisions and conflict with the "divide and rule" policy. The colonials did not educate the majority of the locals and did not integrate them into the political or economic framework as equals. Why do you not discuss this and it's implications? Why do you get so wound up when your blatant omissions are pointed out objectively and factually? Any 12 year old school kid would know better history than what you spew.

I did not ever deny or condone the brutality or genocide by Mugabe or any other African regimes It is people like you who are denying the role of colonialism in shaping today's Africa. We have not even touched on neo-colonialism yet! I suppose you will deny that it ever existed.

Please think of what would have become of Western Europe without its colonial escapades from around 1450's to 1920s. Also please think of what would be the state of Africans or indigenous Americans or Australians without colonialism. Look at all these cultures and people groups from multiple perspectives.

You need to have some honesty and objectivity if you want to understand human history, culture, civilization or even just human nature. You need to have the integrity and intellect to look at multiple perspectives rather than just being a pathetic denier of colonial history. Your ignorant rant about asking an African Zimbabwean about his loyalties and patriotism is a classic example of your failure to understand the indigenous people's paradigm. Why should an African NOT be a tribal? Do you have some moral right to tell all Africans "Thou shalt no longer be influenced by tribal affiliations?" Or do you have some God give right to tell all Africans "thou shalt be more loyal to your country as geographically determined by the British Empire way back in history"??? Who gave you the moral authority to judge Africans or anyone else about how they should interpret their cultural heritage and history? You claim to have lived in Africa and yet your single dimension mindset is 17th century colonial.

Your own lack of objectivity is a great example of how people like Mugabe & others conduct themselves. Yes it is not race but just plain dishonesty. A very common human trait I might add.

ddrhook

Thank you sir I appreciate the offer. Sadly I will not be at DSC but Terry Anders and Wayne Bartlet will be and hopefully they can buy you a drink.
I hope one day however of having the honor of accepting a drink from you(in the not too distant future)

Naki
I think that you have certainly made assumptions when it comes to accusing posters of refusing to acknowledge the effects or even existence of Colonialism in Africa. However we must be realistic and aportion blame where blame lies as well as be sensible and find reasonable solutions to empowerment issues.The current mess in Zimbabwe has nothing to do with colonial issues. It is ONLY about power and the desperate fight to hang onto it.

Surely, if you are a sane and reasonable man, you cannot believe that the answer to correcting a past injustice , is simply to repeat the injustice. In the same way, you cannot believe that by taking a mans farm away to give to another, or creating legislation that redistributes an Industry, you will expand and enhance any stakeholders existance.

In my very first post, I stated that I believed the best way forward was to create a self governing and self funded body within the Industry that would assist , train and create ADDITIONAL potential and growth. Surely that way no one loses out. It also forces existing stakeholders to PARTICIPATE in the generation of new business potential. I pointed out that there was precedent in that there were agricultural institutions in Zimbabwe that were created to do exactly that. You shot this down by asking what they had done for the black population prior to 1976.(quite a bit actually as they were all created PRE 1976 to train black farmers) The point is that the bodies were supported by white farmers and businesses which actively created growth opportunity and training for Black people.

The single most important fact that you must try to understand and grasp is simply that you cannot keep an industry growing and thriving if you are TAKING property and business from one party(white run outfits) and GIVING it to another.Would it not be better to encourage everyone to work together , as I suggested, than to exclude one sector.(Even if it is on the pretext of righting so called colonial wrongs.

You have accused other posters of not reading your posts objectively , so I ask you to do the same and reread my initial post. It is not about continuing to repress or dehumanise any ethnic body, but rather a reaction to a suggestion or statement that my own ethnic group be repressed. I make no apologies for that. Your posts suggest that as White Africans we should simply sit back and accept that what we have worked for, sweated bled and died for, should just be given up in order to rectify an injustice done in the past..

As a white person , I reserve the right to stand up for what I believe in ,in exactly the same way as any other race has that right in my eyes. That right extends to not having 200 years of history thrown at me , in order to justify what is a criminal injustice. I hope you can respect that point of view.

Yes it's all a conspiracy by those evil white people to keep the people of color in their place ... they do this through the use of magic and potions that only whites possess. These potions allow them to overcome the fact that they are a miniscule minority in a country where politicians, law enforcement, and civil servants are almost entirely black.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
so the simple answer to my question is NO- YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO AFRICA AND SEEN THE END RESULT OF "AFRICAN " RULE OF AFRICAN COUNTRIES!!! UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT, YOUR LONG DISTANCE OPINION IS MEANINGLESS.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
I love it when some one who has never lived there. never talked to the people there, never seen what's really going on there, sites back and pronounces judgement's on those who know what there talking about. who have and/or do live there,talked to the people who lived there before and after white rule, seen it, I guess if you see it on TV it's real!!!!!

By that logic, I trust neither of you opine on events in Afghanistan or Iraq or Venezuela or North Korea absent your having either lived there or spent time in-country talking to the locals. Otherwise you opinions would be "meaningless", right?

That's fair enough.

Zimfrosty

You are a gentleman and a balanced and objective person. I have respected your views though we may not always agree. There is a lot of merit in what you say. You know for a fact that the tribal way of life is fundamental to African society. The modern industrial and commercial environment is a major contradiction to the tribal way of life. Ownership of land, property etc. are based on totally different principles. The closest to a viable economic model in tribal societies is a co-operative business model. It works well in many western countries including New Zealand. Our dairy industry is huge & the world's largest dairy company is our own and is a giant co-operative owned by some 10,000 farmers - yes with a turnover of US$12 billion a year. There are many Maori trust / co-operatives here like in the fishing industry which are also very successful. Yes there are also some which are corrupt and poorly managed.

I am not asking anyone to undo the injustice of the past. Nor am I saying that we should condone the injustices of the present. I am saying you cannot solve the problem with a "western", "white" or "colonial" mindset that so many others seem to have. The more that people rant about "black" the more they will feel alienated. You can see that in the hatred towards Obama. You can see this attitude in some of the comments above - even a decent guy like Will thinks I am naive to accept the idea of having grand kids of mixed race. For God's sake we are human beings first!

We will not succeed for another 100 years if we try to convince the indigenous Africans that the Western economic model is the right way. They do not trust the West or most white people. That is why they are giving the Chinese a try. Yes the Chinese have their own agenda but so has the West. Many Western countries have lost credibility because they are perceived to be big brother bullies. That is the perception and that is the reality in the minds of most Africans, Arabs, etc. Of course most Americans will deny that they are big brother bullies. Some refuse to even acknowledge that that is how others see them. That is the second half of the problem.

To summarise my point - firstly African society is inherently tribal in mindset. The West does not fully appreciate this key identity. Secondly the West has lost credibility and is perceived as a bully but many westerners do not understand that. So you have this complete mismatch of world views and perception of what is happening & what needs to be done. This a very simplistic explanation. There are so many complex issues intertwined within this mismatch of mindsets.

Wish you and your family a Merry & blessed Christmas sir.

Nakihunter,
With all respect I understand some of your views and you are correct on some points. But you are missing the point on some to. I do not condemn or state opinion on North Korea, Afghanistan,etc or any other country or people where I have not live and have no personal first hand experience.
From my experience in Kenya and Uganda I have seen that the Chines presents has nothing to do with not trusting white men. It is about the massive corruption demanded by the African as a way of doing business and the Chines understanding and willingness to participate in bribery and corruption as a normal way of doing business.
I have tried to get a fish farm started in Uganda a few years ago and the corruption and the misconceptions of the american financial community made it impossible.
That being said the seizure of Farms and business's for the legal owners who have live in Africa for five generations. is corruption at it's worst.

Man can some people spout absolute damn drivel. Since 1990, this country has gone to hell. The filth and degeneration in the city I live in has to be seen to be believed. Blocked drains, garbage in the streets and my all time favourite, overflowing sewerage. Unkempt verges and public areas have caused my home city to be nicknamed slummies.
When I farmed, some 45 klms out of town,during the "terrible" previous era, If a member of my staff required an ambulance, it was on my farm within 35 to 45 minutes. Now, in town, a person will have to wait for up to 6 hours, and on and on several occasions, people have died from relatively minor causes. i.e. if they had received care within an hour, they would have lived.
Aurora Mine, owned by a Mandela and a Zuma, yes, family of the political elite, is now flooding with acid water, creating a huge source of the polution of potable water. Their staff have not been paid in more than a year.
Here in the Eastern Cape, the new school year is already going to get off to a bad start in that there will be no text books for the kids!! The final year matric exam results will be out in the new year. It is already known that pass percentages will be considerably down.
God help you if you need a cop. The standard answer is that there is no vehicle available, although police vehicles can be seen at shopping malls.
Pepsi Cola [SA] was given to a black consortium a few years ago. The owners all drove luxury German marks and they wiped the company through their collective nether regions in quick time. The list of ruined businesses and ruined productive farms grows all the time. One of the saddest things to witness is a once productive farm turned into a squatter camp.
Cause and effect does not feature and nor does projected forethought. Driving through a stop sign or a red traffic light is normal and if there is a collision, it is normally the fault of the idiot proceeding on green.
No Nakihunter. I have said before, you do not have a flippen clue and it strikes me that you only open your mouth to change feet.

PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE/ENLIGHTEN SOMEONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN THERE WITH FACTS. it will be like teaching a pig to dance- frustrates you and bore the pig. everyone knows that the majority of Africa's woes are due to the demonic white man who has lowered the average black man's standard of living, health system, education system, food availability, infant mortality, and general welfare. oops, i almost forgot, whitey is the cause of AIDS running rampant, too!! thank God, things will now improve with Black Africans RUNNING THE SHOW.

Thanks for that Jdollar. Our previous president, Mbheki, told Jimmy Carter that the white man was responsible for the advent of AIDS.
Actually, when considering the previusly spouted drivel, the cure for rabies comes to mind.

I have lived in Djibouti, and traveled in Morocco, Namibia, South Africa and Egypt.

I liked hunting in Namibia, it's a wealth of wildlife to experience.

Beyond that I don't have a lot of interest in returning to Africa.

True shit-holes like Djibouti give you an idea of what Namibia and South Africa would be like if Europeans never colonized it, and what could happen if they all get kicked out or shot.

I think modern Africa will go one of two ways, whites will get kicked out or shot, probably a little bit of both.

The very real situation of what could happen at any moment with the wrong kind of government in Africa was always 1000 times scarier when I was living in Africa, then the threat or fear of getting killed in the 3 years I have spent in Afghanistan.

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
and i EARNED IT. it wasn't given to me and i didn't inherit it.

....and I didn't get it as the result of a government mandate (affirmative action).

Headlines-
Black Ownership lacking in Airline industry
Black Ownership lacking in Housing industry
Black Ownership lacking in Trucking Industry
Black Ownership lacking in Petroleum Industry
Black Ownership lacking in Agribusiness
Whites Underrepresented in NBA, NFL, MLB

I wish this one-eyed stuff will be sent to the vile & hateful political forum & not pollute the hunting forum.


You just can't take a well-deserved shellacking and be quiet, can you? First, you insult all the white farmers whose families have lived in Africa for many generations and been robbed and displaced and now you gratuitously insult the "handicapped." As a hunter, one-eyed for the past 46 years, who muddles along, I am offended by all of your vacusous, gratuitous opinions. Please desist. Surely you can write of something for which you have personal knowledge.

Blanko

I have always understood "one eyed opinions" to be a phrase explaining a deliberate choice to shut one eye and not look objectively - like looking through coloured glass. here is a Google search on the phrase http://www.google.co.nz/search...z=1R1WZPB_en___NZ340. Your reactions seems to be an extremely PC interpretation just to try and put me down. I have no intention of insulting handicapped people and I would really appreciate it if you did not misquote me. Please refer to my post on honesty above.

I suggest that you read the posts carefully and if required even consult a lawyer! I have not insulted white farmers. I have just suggested that people stop de-humanising blacks and other people groups. I have a lot of white friends and relatives. I have already posted my views on my kids dating any respectable person when they grow up. Some here have said that I was being naive.

You are quick to deliberately misinterpret my comments as insulting to white farmers and handicapped people. How come you have not taken umbrage to blatant insults to tribal cultures and black Africans?

I suggest that you look at your mirror and search for some honesty in yourself and I sincerely hope you find it. And if you find some honesty there, please ask yourself why you did not condemn all the insults heaped on tribal cultures.

no one needs an "extremely PC interpretation" of your posts to put you down- you manage to do that quite well without anyone's help. check this thread and see who agrees with your naive interpretation of fact. if you think tribal anamosity no longer exists in Africa and everyone just sits around the campfire singing "Kumbaya"- well good luck with that rosy but incorrect picture. tribal hatred is just as prevalent now as it was way before demon whitey showed up. ask a Hutu or a Tutsi, a Shona or an Ndabele, Bantu or San. blacks are MUCH better at dehumanizing blacks than white people could ever be- and it is ongoing!

quote:

blacks are MUCH better at dehumanizing blacks than white people could ever be

I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, but let's not fill ourselves with B.S.

Germany did a great job under Hitler.

Every war we have ever been in has involved a good deal of dehumanizing on both sides.

Jdollar

I thought you already got a lesson on honesty but you seem to have missed it. I DID NOT say that the blacks have no tribal loyalties or conflict. On the other hand I asked you what moral authority you had for expecting them to give up tribal values? What makes you think that you have the right to expect tribal people to stop being tribal? If a people want to identify with their heritage, who are you to tell them not to? On the other hand you have denied that colonials have encouraged tribal conflict to perpetuate colonial values and interests. As I said before dishonesty is not the sole prerogative of Mugabe. There are neo-colonials on this forum who will deny anything to perpetuate a myth and try to de-humanise people who are different to themselves. Hitler is long dead but there are many around who still practice his beliefs!

Oh...and you want to start a fish farm in Uganda do you? Why don't you try it in the North Sea or in New Zealand or Canada or in some truly capitalist country with proper competition. And...why don't you ask the people contracted to supply the military in Iraq or Afghanistan. These people are not Africans or blacks but the levels of corruption are far greater than in any African country. Don't fool yourself that it is only Africans and other non-European ethnic groups who are corrupt or brutally violent or criminally incompetent. All races have had these traits and flaws in history, just like you yourself have demonstrated with your lack of objectivity and integrity in your above posts.

Nakihunter,
If you where not so deaf dumb blind and stupid it would be funny. You assume to know everything about every body and you truly know nothing about anything. you appear to be on this forum just to disagree with anyone and everyone who just happen to know what they are talking about and can back it up with facts. this is obvious in what you have said many time during this discussion. one point for you Uganda is a capitalist country as well as a multi national country. you sir are a sniveling idiot who it is my pleasure to now put in the same place as all the other sniveling idiots. the ignore list I love the ignore button.

Naki Hunter

Once before there was a debate on basically the same topic. At first when I read your comments I decided not to get involved, but driving in the car thinking about what has been said I felt that I had to get a thew things of my chest. First of all I think you miss the point If you think we dehumanize black people. However the black people of Africa has a complete different attitude, culture, way of doing things, mindset, values, norms than Europeans,Indians, Asians, Eskimos,or any race on earth.For me a White African, an Afrikaans speaking white male that has his roots in Africa for the last 350 years, who knows no other country, are not accepted by any other country, who will most probably die a white African, the things and way that things are done by my fellow black Africans are not acceptable.I accept that my way of thinking are more European than black African.I would go so far to say my thinking are more civilized like Europeans, Americans, Japanese, Russians Australians, Indians, and most of the civilized people of the world.Therefore I can not understand the fact that everything that was build up needs to be broken down or destroyed. I can not accept that there is no value to nature or wildlife and that the earth should be raped and that people only think of the here and the now. There seems to be no vision for the feature. We always talk about sustainable development.We want to leave a legacy for our children. This way of thinking I consider to be civilized.The way you conduct yourself in writing gives me the impression that you are civilized person. That is why so many people actually invite you to come and see for yourself.I know of so many people from all over that has changed their tune drastically after living in Africa and more specifically in RSA.I have friends in all walks of live of all creeds and colors.You should leave your adopted country and sit around a "Braai "(not a barbecue) with a few Windhoek Lagers and speak to all these people and my friend I am positive you will see the light.To conclude: They are humans entitled to everything but to jeopardize my and my children as well as fellow Africans's quality of live is unacceptable!This Africa belongs to me just as much as to the black people that arrived more or less at the same time at the Southern tip of Africa.Everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion. Mine is that you haven't got a chip on your shoulder but a menhir.Base your facts not on books,opinions or personal believes but on what you see, experience every day of your live.

well said thank you

It seems a simple answer to a complex set of circumstances, but one we have not yet been able to implement in our own country.

Motivation.

Every one in the world wants nice things, once they have been exposed to them.

The issue arises over how to obtain them.

You have to educate a populace on how education and discipline get you those things. It takes three generations, under a political and economic climate that fosters those goals to arrive there.

That is not yet occurring in Africa. The burning question: how to make it happen?

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
Nakihunter,
If you where not so deaf dumb blind and stupid it would be funny. You assume to know everything about every body and you truly know nothing about anything. you appear to be on this forum just to disagree with anyone and everyone who just happen to know what they are talking about and can back it up with facts. this is obvious in what you have said many time during this discussion. one point for you Uganda is a capitalist country as well as a multi national country. you sir are a sniveling idiot who it is my pleasure to now put in the same place as all the other sniveling idiots. the ignore list I love the ignore button.

This thread could do with a little more civility and common courtesy.

The idea behind forums like AR is to foster exchanges of information and diversity of opinion. Nakihunter has done no more than to express his views on this subject, as have others. On the other hand, ddrhook's near-hysterical sputtering of insults and reliance on ad hominem attacks (see above) do very little to bolster his credibility on this topic. I would hope that if he were across a table from Nakihunter his message would be more temperate.

We would all do better to write our posts in the same fashion as we would talk in person to our fellow AR colleagues. Wouldn't that be refreshing?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
It seems a simple answer to a complex set of circumstances, but one we have not yet been able to implement in our own country.

Motivation.

The issue arises over how to obtain them.

You have to educate a populace on how education and discipline get you those things. It takes three generations, under a political and economic climate that fosters those goals to arrive there.

Rich
Like most simple answers to complicated questions, your answer does not address the real issues.

Implying that black Africans are poor because they are lazy, undisciplined and uneducated is convenient but ignores the real underlying issues: lack of capital and lack of quality jobs.

If you want to know why there is a lack of capital in Africa you would do good to look at the agricultural welfare(subsidies) and trade agreements here in the first world.

Much of the money that does flow into Africa ends up in the hands of the "rich" and much of this money flows back out of the county. Think of who ends up with your tourist dollars, and where they in turn spend that money.

The problem with Africa doesn't stem from European colonialism, but from the fact it didn't last long enough. I don't think three generations is enough time to live in a modern state and be able to successfully transfer its ethics over to it's indigenous people. I think six generations or roughly 150 years would be necessary. Compare the mess of Africa with the relative success of India which was ruled and administered by England for a much longer period. I know most of the Boers out there despise England, but they did provide a modern base of government for much of the world including the US.

It is simple.

If you find one African government that wants prosperity for all it is easy to accomplish.

Mandatory schooling thru age sixteen.
Graduation certificate to vote.
An official, written govt policy that encourages education and free enterprise.
Death by hanging, on the public square of any exposed corrupt officials stealing from the people.
Start in Namibia on 01-01-11, and by 01-01-41 Namibia is the crown jewel of Africa and a shining showcase of what native Africa can accomplish.

Anytime someone says a situation is too complicated for the average person to understand has a vested interest in taking your money to explain it to you. And they have been instrumental (at least their business profession has) in making it complicated. It's how they become millionaires.

The two professions that immediately come to mind: Politicians and Lawyers.

Rich

I am a retired senior Air Force Officer, and have been around the world "three times on a broom," including multiple trips to Africa. I offer the following:

1. If you can find one, read the US Army country study on Southern Rhodesia (before it became Zimbabwe). Then read the current country study. There is not one area in which there has been progress...only total regression.

2. Most of the former European colonies are not performing as well as they did as colonies. This includes: agriculture, education, health care, infrastrcture, human rights, education, lack of internal strife, economic development, life expectancy, honest government, etc. Botswana gets high marks...but AIDS is impacting the population. S. Africa has had a "land restitution" program basd on willing seller-willing buyer (the gov't). Supposed trained native farmers are being positioned on the farms...production is down...enough so that the gov't is declaring the program "not working," and is moving to reclaim lands and have competent farmers take charge. The cost of living goes up if you have to import food...which happened in RSA.

3. Land reform is nothing new. It has been tried in many countries...most often with less than satisfactory outcome. Zambia and Mozambique are inviting dispossed Zim farners to come in and operate farms...again, you have to be able to feed your people from within...and ideally be able to export surplus.

4. Recently, The Congo sent a team to study RSA agricultural methods. They are inviting RSA farmers to come in and develop a farming base...but who'd want to after 50 years of non-stop violence? The UN...puke!...should have listened to Moise Tshombe. Nobody will come in and operate the mining concessions in the mineral rich Katanga province.

5. Nigerian oil. In 1980, as a studnet at Armed Forces Staff College, we took an in-depth look at the geo-political scene in all of Africa. The PC pundits were predicting that Nigeria would be the new model for open and honest gov't, improvement in the welfare of the population, etc, etc. Not many of us bought in to that line of thinking. Look at Nigeria today.

6. Finally, the term "politically correct." Where did it originate? If you said Chairman Mao, you are correct (no pun intended). How many of the naive and shallowly educated (far too many in our nation) parrot and follow this concept?

7. Just remember...help a liberal have a bad day!

Eagle One

Architct/Engineer
Professor of Math/Chemistry/Phyices/Thermo
Benefactor Member NRA
Life Member SCI
Life Member SASS
DRSS .450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-7

Anton

Thanks for the very balanced and objective post. I really enjoyed reading it. Thanks a heap for your invitation to join you for a Brai. When I visit South Africa you will be one of the first to know.

I agree with most of you have said. A few that I do not agree with, i have tried to comment on. My views are not just based on books. I have lived extensively in a former third world countries and spent a lot of time in rural, feudal societies while working for modern corporates. I have experienced first had the complex contradictions between the impacts of traditional tribalism, feudalism, colonialism and modern capitalism cutting across all that.

Yes you are an African and have every right to be treated as an African and not as a foreigner. The problem that you missed is that until very recently the African people were not treated as equals, not given education, not given the infrastructure support, deliberately kept down, tribal conflict was encouraged...and so on. In other words the colonial system was not geared for their interest but just to exploit them and their land. That is the unfortunate but factual effect of "civilization". Their traditional way of life was also disrupted - they cannot go back to a tribal nomadic way of life. This was done over 350 years as you say. Now it is not reasonable to expect them to accept the modern European "civilized" way in 20 years and be experts at it. Yes I agree that dismantling all the old institutions is a big step backwards. The problem is the mindset and the lack of trust. You know that many Afrikaans people still do not trust the English speaking people. I know some here in NZ who said that hey did not speak the English language properly until they came here and that was only because they had to. Old memories of history lead to distrust that is very difficult to change. New institutions, and infrastructure will do it slowly. As I suggested earlier - Co-operative enterprises might be one option. But the American corporations will never encourage that as they want "free market" access. If all the mineral resources in Africa were developed in a co-operative framework, the African economy would probably be 100 times better off.

Political power and control has its own way of following money. Money in anyone's hands also has a way of following political power & control. The corruption in Africa is not purely among blacks and Chinese. European / Western countries, companies and people have been involved in African corruption for a long time and still are. A well known American TV evangelist Pat Robertson was strongly involved in the diamond trade with former dictator Mobutu in the 1990s. The various policies of the colonial period have had long term effects that are a permanent scar on human "civilization". I wonder if you remember American politician saying tin the 1970's an that they would not support to end white rule in Rhodesia and SA because the American women still wanted to ware diamonds. The "Divide & Rule" policy of the British is an easy example to understand. The tragic effects of that policy are still seen in India / Pakistan, Africa, middle East, Iraq etc. The results and harm of such a policy is permanent & irreversible.

The big question I have is "Where and when & how have the indigenous people been given an option to develop and grow as equals in ALL aspects of society?"

I repeat my self
1 Yes Black Africa is corrupt and poorly managed & brutally violent
2 That does not mean that White Africa is NOT corrupt or was all good and wonderful. It was terrible for the blacks.
3 The effects of colonialism and neo-colonialism have an important role in the current situations in Africa. To deny that is to try and re-write history.
4 The consequences of independence in Africa are not just the fault of the black African people. Everyone present and past have to take responsibility.

No I do not have a Menhir on my shoulder. I just get annoyed when I see such prejudiced and half-true posts are repeatedly put up on the hunting forum. They should be in the Political forum. Such posts seem to just focus on how bad things are for the whites and how it is the fault of the blacks. Some even suggest that colonialism should have lasted longer! Such comments are deeply offensive and stupid. Yes stupid because colonialism COULD NOT have lasted longer. Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc. were broke. Despite all the exploitation of resources, the colonial powers were consuming more than they were getting. Yes they built roads, schools & hospitals but not for everyone. They only did what was required to support the infrastructure of their colonial enterprise. When it became unaffordable they just left. You know the sorry mess that the Portuguese left their African colonies in - No decent administration to use (unlike the British). They did the same in New Guinea (West Irian) and the Indonesian govt is now exploiting the locals ruthlessly.

Finally...when I sit around a Brai and chat with you, I'll most likely recognise & empathise with the state of affairs that you are in. I am sure I would share your frustrations and futility and anxiety. I would just disagree with some of the causes. I would try & work with you on hoping to find a solution. But I can assure you that the solution will never be found as long as people keep complaining about how uncivilized the blacks are.

An open appeal to Kathi

You have posted several times about politically sensitive matters on the hunting forum. Some of them have been moved to the political forum in the past because the debate deteriorated into abuses and name calling. You are well respected in this forum and are widely traveled and very experience in hunting as is your husband. I also notice that after making the initial posts you do not get into the political discussion. I also find that most of these posts have a strong prejudice against the local blacks. The general tone of these posts are often "black versus white" in an unhealthy and polarising manner.

I find this offensive. I feel that such posts should be made in the Political Forum. If you want to inform people about the subject you could post a link on the hunting forum. JMHO & $0.02W.

Naki,

how is the NZ program with promoting Maori ownership going these days?
Stick with things you have some knowledge of.

What Kathi has posted here are what African governments are saying. They are newspaper and TV speeches. It is what we call "The Facts".

Rich
DRSS

damn Scotty, why don't you tell us how you really feel!!

what happened to Scottyboy's post? might have struck a nerve.

I think you were too hard on him.

Not everybody understands you are a lovable little fuzzball with a heart of gold like I do.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

too hard on him? hell, i thought his post was pretty interesting, even if it was not exactly PC.

Rich

The posts out of African papers & TV you refer to are usually of a political nature and lead to polarised debates on politics, human rights, values, honesty and the lack of it etc. I thought that the political forum was for such debates and that the Hunting forum is for discussing hunting issues & not mouthing off about how terrible the blacks are etc. A few such posts by Kathi have been moved to the political forum. Even this thread has a bit of name calling in it. I am sure Kathi is a respected person and is widely regarded for information & service about hunting around the world. I would like to discuss hunting on this forum rather than have to read about how terrible some ethnic groups are and then have to put up with abuses and ridicule because I have a different opinion.

Let me also point out that I know people who do not like posting here because of such right wing ethnocentric attitudes. If we want more people to be involved in hunting then we need to make people welcome. Such prejudiced attitudes will surely put off some people who could add value to this site.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The big question I have is "Where and when & how have the indigenous people been given an option to develop and grow as equals in ALL aspects of society?"

When they achieved independence. That's when where and how. They wanted to be in charge and they did not want to wait. From that point on they assumed responsibility for thier own fate.

They did not even give the "whites" the chance or opprotunity to try and teach them how they could "develop and grow as equals in ALL aspects of society?" They wanted them OUT OF POWER and themselves in power. Period.

quote:

I repeat my self
1 Yes Black Africa is corrupt and poorly managed & brutally violent.

I agree.

quote:

2 That does not mean that White Africa is NOT corrupt or was all good and wonderful. It was terrible for the blacks.

If you exclude some white african colonies there's wiggle room for the "terrible" part, but essentially I agree.

quote:

3 The effects of colonialism and neo-colonialism have an important role in the current situations in Africa. To deny that is to try and re-write history.

I agree with you again.

quote:

4 The consequences of independence in Africa are not just the fault of the black African people. Everyone present and past have to take responsibility.

People should not deny what happened in the past, or its effects on the present.

But the idea that now that they have independence that people in the present have a responsibility to them seems a bit screwey to me... you're gonna have to explain that line of thought better, because as I read it now it sounds off...

Who is this "everyone" that has to take responsibility today???

quote:

No I do not have a Menhir on my shoulder. I just get annoyed when I see such prejudiced and half-true posts are repeatedly put up on the hunting forum. They should be in the Political forum. Such posts seem to just focus on how bad things are for the whites and how it is the fault of the blacks. Some even suggest that colonialism should have lasted longer! Such comments are deeply offensive and stupid. Yes stupid because colonialism COULD NOT have lasted longer. Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc. were broke. Despite all the exploitation of resources, the colonial powers were consuming more than they were getting.

This is the reason most of the major powers lost thier colonies. They treated them as cash cows. Thier sole purpose was to bring wealth to the home country. Some quibbles, but I mostly agree.

quote:

... they built roads, schools & hospitals but not for everyone. They only did what was required to support the infrastructure of their colonial enterprise. When it became unaffordable they just left.

Not absolutely unaffordable, but more and more politically unpalatable.

But many white "colonists" knew no other home. And they could give a toss about thier "mother/father lands". They didn't want to leave, but were in an unfortunate position of being pressured from both sides.

quote:

You know the sorry mess that the Portuguese left their African colonies in - No decent administration to use (unlike the British). They did the same in New Guinea (West Irian) and the Indonesian govt is now exploiting the locals ruthlessly.

But the "locals" wanted to have self-rule, and unles my history is way off, all the independence movements had mass poular support. The people made thier bed and now they have to lie in it.

They wanted the europeans out, and they got it. At a certain point you have to acceppt responsibility for your decisions.

.