On my return from JoBurg through Washington Dulles IAD, I encountered a strict customs agent who almost held my rifles. I had a original Form 4487 filled out, but it was a two year old form. The agent told me that the form was good, but had to be validated by customs each year you transport your rifles overseas. He was searching in the computer for a record of this. Must be my misunderstanding as my local customs agent indicated in 2004 that the form was valid as long as the same rifles were transported. Evidently not so, as the agent told me he had the right to confiscate my rifles, but was giving me a break, etc, etc. Hope we start flying again out of Atlanta-SOON.

Dak

I assume you mean Form 4457?

My recollection is that these are not entered into any computer system.

I routinely use those forms that are several years old. I used one last week returning from an Argentenian bird hunt that was 11 years old.

I think this guy was yanking your chain.

The Agents in Memphis checked my rifles against my 2 yr old forms, and then wanted to see pictures of the hunt and talk about hunting.

I can find no discussion of time of validity or renewal on the Customs Sevice site.

They specifically say that USCS does not keep copies.

He's full of shit! The form is done once for each firearm,scope,etc that you posses at customs. You may even use the same form even if some of the guns listed on 4457 with the ones you do have at customs no longer belong to you.
I hope the US Customs agents aren't trying to extort bribes like their counterparts in JNB.

There is no way to "validate" the form. There is no computer record relating to Form 4457.

What the Hell was that guy smoking?

Regards,

Terry

I am certain that there is no record of either of the two 4457 forms that I obtained last month. The agent came from behind a counter out to a table, looked at my rifles and stamped the forms that I had filled out. It took him less than two minute. He made no notes or copies.

Doug

You do not have to re-validate these forms.

It is used as proof that you owned something before you left the US. Makes no difference if it was yesterday or 12 years ago.

This agent is making all this up.

Technically speaking you don't need the 4457 in the first place. Just another asshole gov't custom jerk-off trying to impress you with his illegitimate authority.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Technically speaking you don't need the 4457 in the first place. Just another asshole gov't custom jerk-off trying to impress you with his illegitimate authority.

Please don't hold back -- it is bad for your blood pressure!

I hope you have that Agents name so you can call his superiors, so they can straighten him out.
I was at Customs yesterday having several from 4457's signed. The Agent told me and another fella that these forms were good for LIFE.
He suggested having them laminated so they would last FOREVER.
On some of the forms I had several items listed. he also told me the forms were valid even if I only took one item on the form overseas.

ANY time you have to deal with ANY person of ANY authority it is a good idea to know ALL the rules your self.

If they are wrong I start out being polite and tell them so.
If they are an asshole then I can become a bigger asshole.
The exception is of course any Official with ARREST authority. Then continue to be polite until a superior in the know shows up.

I, too, was told that the forms were "good for life" after the agent duly looked at the firearms and scopes and verified the serial numbers. When I returned from Namibia last April, through Dulles; the computer showed that my 30-06, a sporterized 1903 Springfield, manufactured by Remington during the late 30's, duly stamped with manufacturer and serial number, was really a remington 12ga shotgun. This really confused the issue as the agents could examine the rifle, see the serial number and maker, and look at their computer screen. Well, this made me pretty nervous, however, the senior agent finally shrugged his shoulders and passed me through. Wonder what would have happened if the agent under discussion was on duty.

Will is correct. If you have your original sales reciept with the serial number of the item that will sufice.

However South Africa accepts the Form 4457 as your export permit.

I did not have any problems the two times I came back into the US at Atlanta...

Next trip it will be Dulles.
I may have to straighten "them people" out.

I have no problem getting "MEDIEVAL" on a Bureaucrat who is wrong. [In the Good Ole USA where we have rights... be careful anywhere else].

How can they check it in a computer, they do not keep copies or even enter anything in a computer when I got my forms?

If you are refering to my post; I would suspect that the firearms manufacturers enter the serial numbers of their product into a database accessible by law enforcement agencies, and probably have been doing so for years.

Having one of my episodes of idiocy, I left my 4457's in the car at the Jo'burg airport. The customs agent at Dulles said that there was no problem, he had other ways of verifying my ownership and looked up the serial numbers on some computer database. Then he came back, advised me to get new 4457's to save time next trip and wished me a pleasant trip. You must have gotten some new guy trying to prove something.

Bryan Chick; To my knowledge (32+ years of law enforcement experience), there is no special database of serial numbers and years of manufacture, particularly to some Customs clerk at the airport. Maybe, just maybe, some BATF or FBI specialist might be able to access a list that they maintain because that's the business they are in, but not some airport clerk.

The only serial number/year of manufacture databases that I've ever used is the same one all gun collectors can access via the 'net.

What the Customs clerk did was run the serial number on your gun in NCIC (the nation wide stolen/wanted database) and a "hit" came up on a Remington shotgun with that same serial number. You can run just about any serial number and get a "hit", but it won't match the make, model, or caliber. (You can also run males with a common name born from 1950 to 1980 and get hits...but they got to be the same race, size, eye color, tattoos, etc before you can start getting excited).

I've used the same 4457 form on my 375 since 1996. There is no record of these things and I think this Customs clerk was just trying to sound important.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
I, too, was told that the forms were "good for life" after the agent duly looked at the firearms and scopes and verified the serial numbers. When I returned from Namibia last April, through Dulles; the computer showed that my 30-06, a sporterized 1903 Springfield, manufactured by Remington during the late 30's, duly stamped with manufacturer and serial number, was really a remington 12ga shotgun.

That's because they were proceeding from the FALSE assumption that your 1903 Springfield was a "remington". It may have been made by remington but it is instead a US Government Serial No: xxxxxxxxx, Remington who just happens to be the contractor that produced it...

What's next some idiot telling you your international Harvester Garand is really a 1940's vintage tractor?

Or your Rockola Carbine is really a coffee vending dispenser or jukebox?

As for Computer records of a 4457? not only no, but hell no! they are specifically forbidden by federal law from recording that data on a computer, as it would constitute a de-facto registration of firearms.


be polite but firm. Wrong is wrong no matter how much of a prick they try to be.
Sometimes you meet people who insist on proving what an idiot they are.


AllanD

Obviously you ran into another gun-hating democrat. It is ILLEGAL for Customs to keep any kind of data base. Further, those forms are good for life. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I hope you have that Agents name so you can call his superiors, so they can straighten him out.
I was at Customs yesterday having several from 4457's signed. The Agent told me and another fella that these forms were good for LIFE.
He suggested having them laminated so they would last FOREVER.
On some of the forms I had several items listed. he also told me the forms were valid even if I only took one item on the form overseas.

ANY time you have to deal with ANY person of ANY authority it is a good idea to know ALL the rules your self.

If they are wrong I start out being polite and tell them so. ...
The exception is of course any Official with ARREST authority. Then continue to be polite until a superior in the know shows up.

This is as close to absolute truth as I have seen it explained. I have used 15 year old forms 4457 and they contain multiple firearms and you do not have to have all of them in your possession at the time of border crossing. Like my S&W model 29, and my Canadian deer rifle... wow the reaction of the Canadians Customs people when for a moment they think they have a live one! Sorry fellas, it's home in the safe. I strongly recomend that this "official" be chastised for the gross misconduct which was perpetrated upon you. Thanks for the heads up that all that glitters isn't up to a Gold standard.

Gee I love it when you guys get pissed.

I think he was looking for an opportunity to add to his rifle collection

The form only confirms that the item in question was in your possesion in the US, meaning that it only confirms that "appropriate" - if there is such a thing - taxes or duties have been paid on it. For rifles, scopes, binos.. its the Pttman Robertson tax.

JPK

The form is only intended, to my understanding, to assure that you're not bringing a gun into the country that was purchased overseas. If that is the purpose, I can't think they would not be good for life. In fact, customs has told me that they are good for life.

When I came through IAD in June, the customs agent looked at the forms and didn't even ask to see the guns.

I crossed the borders of the USA with firearms for years without a 4457, and had zero problem. I only got one of the forms in 1992 for a trip to Zambia, because My PH said it would be a good idea, in Zambia, and because I read about them in a gun rag, and have been useing that same form for those guns since! I have several others I've obtained since, however! The form 4457 is simply a certified documentation of your ownership of the rifles items listed on the form, and that you are bringing them back into the usa, not importing them. The information on these forms are not recorded anyplace other than on the form 4457 it's self.

As far as the customs agent is concerened, they all have arrest authority, when on duty in a port of entry. However, right is right, and wrong is wrong, and this agent should have been made clearly aware of that fact. Many things have been taken as gospel, simply because the person has a official looking badge, and a gun on his hip, especially since homeland secuity has been in effect. Some agents seem to want to be superman, and take liberties they have no athority to take, and need to be set straight.

The form 4457 has become a real document in many countries, as to your authorized ownership of a fire arm, by the USA government! It is a prudant idea to have them for your firearms, eventhough only a bill of sale is all that is needed, legally, to return from out of the country with your rifles. Because the 4457 is regarded as a permit by other countries, is is almost a must have item!

Bottom line is to ask for a supervisor if the agent you are dealing with is giving you problems. Do it politely and if this doesn't work a little ass kissing may. That is just the reality of dealing with feds.

Another example of a full of him/herself individual in possesion of a small amount of authority and how easily it can be abused. When I registered my own rifles for my only Africa trip I had obtained blank forms ahead of time, filled them to include all the rifle data and scopes on the rifles and when I went to the local (Seattle, WA) customs office to get them signed, I purposly left the rifle in my car (didn't want to take CASED rifles into the office and get them all excited ) and first went into the office to get further directions on getting the form signed, well first "greeting" was what the hell do you want from the only agent willing to even look up from his desk, then was told to bring the firearms in as form couldn't be signed without seeing the guns( Makes sense to me so far), then when I went back into the office with the 2 CASED rifles, was again less then pleasantly told, "you can't bring those in here", (different agent by this time), so it doesn't surprise me that you ran into the trouble you did at the airport coming back. Rules are only for those willing to abide by them, and besides like where I work, if the "rule" gets in the way, hell just break/avoid/ignore it or whatever it takes to get the job done or be the least inconviennt to "me". The 4457 is pretty easy form and as others have already stated its good "for Life".

Interesting to compare to my experience 8 days ago in Atlanta. No one checked my gun, my 4457 or sprayed my boots or anything. I was asked if I had any meat products with me or bought anything I was bringing back. A told him no animal products and a few t-shirts and I walked.

Brent

I have two 4457 forms for my rifles and cameras. I have never seen then keep a copy so how could they have a computer list? Last year when I took my new double in to have it added the customs agent just added it to one of my old forms and initialed the new entry.
Usually a smile and a reasonable explanation will get you through even a tough agent.

465H&H

My last two trips I used the tuffpack and walked right thru with my "golf clubs". I do not go thru the delcare line as I have nothing to declare, I took em out and brought em back, nuff said.

Bwana,

The issue isn't brining in guns that were purchased overseas. The issue is bringing in guns that were purchased overseas on which US taxes and duties have not been paid.

Importing sporting firearms is no big issue, so long as you pay the (US Gov't) piper.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by bisonhunter1:
Another example of a full of him/herself individual in possesion of a small amount of authority and how easily it can be abused. When I registered my own rifles for my only Africa trip I had obtained blank forms ahead of time, filled them to include all the rifle data and scopes on the rifles and when I went to the local (Seattle, WA) customs office to get them signed, I purposly left the rifle in my car (didn't want to take CASED rifles into the office and get them all excited ) and first went into the office to get further directions on getting the form signed, well first "greeting" was what the hell do you want from the only agent willing to even look up from his desk, then was told to bring the firearms in as form couldn't be signed without seeing the guns( Makes sense to me so far), then when I went back into the office with the 2 CASED rifles, was again less then pleasantly told, "you can't bring those in here", (different agent by this time), so it doesn't surprise me that you ran into the trouble you did at the airport coming back. Rules are only for those willing to abide by them, and besides like where I work, if the "rule" gets in the way, hell just break/avoid/ignore it or whatever it takes to get the job done or be the least inconviennt to "me". The 4457 is pretty easy form and as others have already stated its good "for Life".

At the Atlanta office they do not want you to bring the rifles inside. Once they went out to my truck to insoect the rifles, second time they just signed the form without inspecting. Just depends on how lazy they are on any particular day.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Obviously you ran into another gun-hating democrat...jorge

Seriously Jorge, do you have any kind of inner monologue or do you just blert out the first stupid thing that comes to mind?

You sure are wired with a hair trigger when it comes to Democrats.

Half the time I read your posts you are either po'd or having a John Sharpe love fest.

Calm down buddy.

quote:

Originally posted by GMaxson:
Seriously Jorge, do you have any kind of inner monologue or do you just blert out the first stupid thing that comes to mind?

You sure are wired with a hair trigger when it comes to Democrats.

Half the time I read your posts you are either po'd or having a John Sharpe love fest.

Calm down buddy.

Right, the 4457 Form. Guys, it looks like I was getting special treatment from this Yo-Yo. He was looking in his computer base for something, and it could be that he put in the serial numbers for a check. Anyway, it rattled him enough that after the talk about confiscation subsided, he neglected to spray my shoes or check my luggage. Unfortunately, I didn't get his name as I was just pleased to vacate the area. I could tell he was giving ever hunter in line trouble over something.
Timely info to find out my form 4457 was still valid, he wanted me to toss it and get a new one. Again, it's time to get back to the friendly folks in Atlanta instead of the near-Washington trougle makers. C'mon Delta!

Dak

Those friendly folk in Atlanta could let a battalion of terrorists through though.

Brent

quote:

You sure are wired with a hair trigger when it comes to Democrats.

Actually it was a calculated "blurt" on my part. Every opportunity I get, but I do see the error as I should have more correctly used the term "liberal" as there are a few Republicans that aren't very gun friendly. But, Can you blame me? Every time I turnaround there's a democrat (sorry liberal) trying to take my guns, my money, not to mention the last time they were in power they just about emasculated my profession.

With the likes of Ted Kennedy, Maxine Waters, Chuck Schumer and lest not we forget Hillary, it's pretty easy. And by the way, it's SHARP without the "e" and "blurt" with a "u", but that's ok I understand. I don't get the correlation about Sharp though.

I can't afford to "relax" with the possibility of "them" coming back to power. jorge

PS: I apologize for the thread hijack and 465 , you are absolutely correct sir and I apologize...again.

EDITED

So if the Customs agent asks what you have you claim "Golf Clubs" and you bypass having your shoes sprayed because you technically were'nt on a farm?

It seems that if you have firearms you are required to show proof that these firearms were indeed yours and that they are not from another country.

The regulations of firearms is an ATF issue. You do not need an ATF permit to return with the same firearms you left with as long as you can show proof these firearms are yours. Customs is tasked with certain enforcement duties.

Not showing or declaring the 4457 upon return violates the instructions printed clearly on the back of the Form 4457.

Most diseases wont make it back, but not treating your shoes before leaving potentially contaminated areas or having them treated upon arrival puts others at risk.

Hey guys! Please taake it to the Political Forum.

465H&H