AR Members - I now comprehend one thing for sure. Shakari knows all, tells all, does all, and has experienced all, he just has no proof of any of it, AT ALL!!

Shakari - Perhaps you are the one who should take time to comprehend my posts. Better yet, rather than sitting behind your computer for life, get out in the field and get some experience. Perhaps then you will knowingly supply info to the public that you can actually substantiate, personally.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I don't think it's as clean cut as canned or not and even if it were, everyone is going to have their own criteria and opinions but as I see it, there are no truly wild lion hunts in RSA. There are several places that border parks etc where lions have bred and lived in a relatively wild environment but these animals will be habituated to vehicles and people so they're habituated rather than wild. That doesn't necessarily make them any less dangerous but it does mean they behave differently to truly wild lions....... there's also no guarantee that captive bred ringers can't be bought in. (See the article I posted the link to) - Nor can it be denied that adjacent African countries are not immune to the ringers being introduced. (Again, see the article)

As far as canned hunting as captive bred cats in small pens and (often) doped cats go, it's something I absolutely detest but that's not exactly new, news!

I do however feel very sorry for the people who get taken in by the all too often scams that do happen.... and I don't blame them for being caught in the scam because as I posted earlier, it's often very difficult indeed to spot the tell tail (pardon the pun) signs.

Question for both Shakari and Aaron,

You are hunting in Zim in the Omay or Matetsi. Your PH has pre-baited for you and upon arrival tells you that a large male lion is coming to one of the baits. You go to the blind early the next morning and a big full maned lion comes to your bait. (As often happens.) So Shakari, is this a wild or habituated lion as it probably came out of one of the Parks? Aaron how do you know for sure that the PH didn't import a lion from somewhere and turn it lose a couple of days before you got there? I'm not trying to slam anyone here but since I have very little experience with hunting lions, I want to learn.

465H&H

while I agree with both posters on some things, it is sad it happens at all. I have been to africa 30 times and while talking with a local gun owner in his shop a couple of years ago two guys came in to show him pictures of the lions they shot. i ask where they got them and they told me they were hunting in SA when towards end of there hunt the outfitter told them there were 2 cattle killing lions in botswana not far from the border and for 50k he could rent a king air and they could hunt them. I ask how long did they stay extra and they said the next morning they flew for about 30 min(ina circle no doubt) and landed and were met by PH. 2 hours later they both shot really big lions.i looked at the pictures and spotted tire tracks in the picture from the wrong way. these two guys were so excited I did not have the heart to tell them it was a scam. It was there first trip to africa and they could not wait to go back. i know they did not go to botswana and these were canned lions.It seems far fetched that someone could travel to TZ with a lion in his truck without getting noticed but who knows, I think almost all the lions shot in other countries besides SA are wild. I will say i see ads in SCI with what appears to me to be "canned lions" and I think the higher ups know this and let thses ads run which i disagree with.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I don't think it's as clean cut as canned or not and even if it were, everyone is going to have their own criteria and opinions but as I see it, there are no truly wild lion hunts in RSA. There are several places that border parks etc where lions have bred and lived in a relatively wild environment but these animals will be habituated to vehicles and people so they're habituated rather than wild. That doesn't necessarily make them any less dangerous but it does mean they behave differently to truly wild lions....... there's also no guarantee that captive bred ringers can't be bought in. (See the article I posted the link to) - Nor can it be denied that adjacent African countries are not immune to the ringers being introduced. (Again, see the article)

As far as canned hunting as captive bred cats in small pens and (often) doped cats go, it's something I absolutely detest but that's not exactly new, news!

I do however feel very sorry for the people who get taken in by the all too often scams that do happen.... and I don't blame them for being caught in the scam because as I posted earlier, it's often very difficult indeed to spot the tell tail (pardon the pun) signs.

Question for both Shakari and Aaron,

You are hunting in Zim in the Omay or Matetsi. Your PH has pre-baited for you and upon arrival tells you that a large male lion is coming to one of the baits. You go to the blind early the next morning and a big full maned lion comes to your bait. (As often happens.) So Shakari, is this a wild or habituated lion as it probably came out of one of the Parks? Aaron how do you know for sure that the PH didn't import a lion from somewhere and turn it lose a couple of days before you got there? I'm not trying to slam anyone here but since I have very little experience with hunting lions, I want to learn.

465H&H

Your example here, certainly would make it more difficult to know, as the hunter would not have had any of the experience that lead up to this point. The baiting, seeing the bait, both before and after it was fed on, etc, etc, etc.

First, isn't pre-baiting in National Parks hunting areas in Zim, not allowed? Honestly, I do not remember, so someone clarify it for me.
Secondly, I doubt seriously the PH would wait til morning if the cat was canned, lord knows what could happen to the cat over-night. Thirdly, in low-light, like early morning light, 465H&H it would/could be tough, unless I could see the cat with decent light. Guaranteed though, once I walked up to it, I would have a real good idea if something fishy was going on.

Why does a guy have to kill nearly a dozen Lions? Just because you have the money? If one isn't bigger than the previous one what's the point. I've been a hunter all my life and for the life of me I can't see the point. Boddington has shot over 50 Buffalo...WHY? And can he even remember them all?

Aaron Neilson,

You posted impressive photos of spectacular lion trophies.

Do you have any suspicion that some or all of the lions in your photos could have been pen-raised and planted during or prior to the hunt?

I realize that you a booking agent for lion hunts and have authored a chapter in "Safari Guide II" specifically on lion hunting, but how do you know for certain that a hunter pursuing lion in any African country and is actually hunting wild lion?

Reading many of the responses in this post on this topic appears that I have a compelling argument that many lions taken each year are actually pets.


please advise,


dale

There is a very good reason why the SCI record book now has a separate category for Lion taken in RSA. Anyone want to guess why?

Chris E Nelson - that may be the absolute silliest post ever made on AR. Perhaps you can recount for us all the deer and elk you've killed during your life of hunting and why you took more than one? You will never "see the point".

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
AR Members - I now comprehend one thing for sure. Shakari knows all, tells all, does all, and has experienced all, he just has no proof of any of it, AT ALL!!

Shakari - Perhaps you are the one who should take time to comprehend my posts. Better yet, rather than sitting behind your computer for life, get out in the field and get some experience. Perhaps then you will knowingly supply info to the public that you can actually substantiate, personally.

Aaron,

You are 100% correct on your assessment. Just one favor -please stop with the quotes. I put Shakira on my ignore list long ago. I see he still spouts any old crap then slaps an idiotic emoticon behind it. As if that somehow makes his usual goat dribble posts OK.

Thanks for posting those pics. It is very refreshing to hear from a man who actually has been there and done that.

Cheers

I don't understand Chris's post are you saying you go on a quail hunt and after the covey rise you pack up and go home and don't hunt quail again. I don't know about you but the thrill and excitement of hunting is what it is about. some people like to hunt doves and go every year and shoot hundreds others like DG and go as often as they can.

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Aaron Neilson,

You posted impressive photos of spectacular lion trophies.

Do you have any suspicion that some or all of the lions in your photos could have been pen-raised and planted during or prior to the hunt?

I realize that you a booking agent for lion hunts and have authored a chapter in "Safari Guide II" specifically on lion hunting, but how do you know for certain that a hunter pursuing lion in any African country and is actually hunting wild lion?

Reading many of the responses in this post on this topic appears that I have a compelling argument that many lions taken each year are actually pets.


please advise,


dale

Dale - I have absolutely no suspicion of any funny business going on during any of my lion hunts. First, I know the guys well that I have hunted with. Secondly, I was on each hunt and know the circumstances of each one, and thirdly, trust me, I just know. Not a single one of them looks anything like a canned lion.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what I have been trying to tell Shakari. Folks like you, who have not done it, have now began to believe this sort of thing is common, simply because guys like Shakari, who claim to be experienced and speak the truth, say so! Dale, I'm not saying it has never happened, certainly it has and likely in Zimbabwe. But trust me, 99% of ALL lion hunts throughout Zim, Moz, Zambia & Tanzania, are completely and totally WILD lions!

Myself and some of my clients have taken some very big maned lions for two specific reasons. First is luck, and second is specifically hunting the places in Africa that can and still do, produce big maned lions!

Come spend a couple weeks with me in Tanzania in 2011, I can also set you up for a visit to Zambia and Zim. After that, you can tell me and the rest of AR what you think.

Chris E. Nelson - I think LionHunter covered that one for me.

Well I don't want to get in the middle of something I have no knowledge of and won't but I can say to Aaron

"Holy Crap, man those are some outstanding lions!"

Really sweet photos and hope to do it in a country other than RSA one day!

Simply stunning!

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Why does a guy have to kill nearly a dozen Lions? Just because you have the money? If one isn't bigger than the previous one what's the point. I've been a hunter all my life and for the life of me I can't see the point. Boddington has shot over 50 Buffalo...WHY? And can he even remember them all?

Please tell me you are joking?

quote:

Originally posted by FishN4Eyes:
Well I don't want to get in the middle of something I have no knowledge of and won't but I can say to Aaron

"Holy Crap, man those are some outstanding lions!"

Really sweet photos and hope to do it in a country other than RSA one day!

Simply stunning!

Man, I hope you get to do it too! Its worth every penny, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

Dale - I have absolutely no suspicion of any funny business going on during any of my lion hunts. First, I know the guys well that I have hunted with. Secondly, I was on each hunt and know the circumstances of each one, and thirdly, trust me, I just know. Not a single one of them looks anything like a canned lion.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what I have been trying to tell Shakari. Folks like you, who have not done it, have now began to believe this sort of thing is common, simply because guys like Shakari, who claim to be experienced and speak the truth, say so! Dale, I'm not saying it has never happened, certainly it has and likely in Zimbabwe. But trust me, 99% of ALL lion hunts throughout Zim, Moz, Zambia & Tanzania, are completely and totally WILD lions!

Myself and some of my clients have taken some very big maned lions for two specific reasons. First is luck, and second is specifically hunting the places in Africa that can and still do, produce big maned lions!

Come spend a couple weeks with me in Tanzania in 2011, I can also set you up for a visit to Zambia and Zim. After that, you can tell me and the rest of AR what you think.

Chris E. Nelson - I think LionHunter covered that one for me.

Aaron-

As usual, I concur completely with your comments in this thread, my friend. I am constantly amazed at how some folks can adopt such all-encompassing attitudes, and then assume they are correct, lacking any practical experience. Expertise via voo-doo apparently.

Having observed caged Lion raising operations in RSA and having hunted Lion in both Tanzania and Zambia and been amongst more wild Lion in Kenya, I can say with some degree of certainty that I have never had a problem determining a wild Lion.

I have to admit his article really got me thinking...my Bots lion didn't have a scratch, has a beautiful main, was taken on foot after many days into the hunt (no baiting in KD 2 in Bots), was in Bots(which the article suggests is known for canned hunts)Fits like a glove right?...one big problem with it all was I really don't think they release TWO big males.
Do I think it goes on? Probably. With any reputable outfitter...Not a chance. Too much to lose. Like any other hunt in Africa stick to reputable outfitters and let the conspiracy theorist worry about the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by DawnRoar:
I have to admit his article really got me thinking...my Bots lion didn't have a scratch, has a beautiful main, was taken on foot after many days into the hunt (no baiting in KD 2 in Bots), was in Bots(which the article suggests is known for canned hunts)Fits like a glove right?...one big problem with it all was I really don't think they release TWO big males.
Do I think it goes on? Probably. With any reputable outfitter...Not a chance. Too much to lose. Like any other hunt in Africa stick to reputable outfitters and let the conspiracy theorist worry about the rest.

DawnRoar - I too shot my Botswana Lion in 2007. Baiting was not allowed anywhere in Bots, along with no shooting lions in a pride, and the law said it had to be over 6 yrs of age. Of course that was never confirmed, but it was a law.

Your lion has the classic "Kalahari" desert lion look! No question its a true "wild", lion that one only hopes for when hunting the Kalahari for lion. Congrats on a great cat, and be proud, for he is definitely a wild lion.

Did you see the lion Steve Chancellor shot in the Kalahari a few years ago? Unbelievable!!

quote:

Dale, I'm not saying it has never happened, certainly it has and likely in Zimbabwe. But trust me, 99% of ALL lion hunts throughout Zim, Moz, Zambia & Tanzania, are completely and totally WILD lions!

Aaron

Now I understand.

The only way to be certain that it is a wild lion is:

1. Trust that the booking agent, PH and outfitter are telling you the truth that you actually are hunting a wild lion.

2. You see for yourself a big male within a pride during your hunt.

Am I missing anything else?


Oherwise you cannot possible know the difference from a pet vs wild lion.

How do you know 1% of the lions taken from Zim,
Moz, Zambia and Tan. are pets?

Do you know what concession and outfitters are using pen-raised lions for hunts?


Please advise


dale

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:

quote:

Dale, I'm not saying it has never happened, certainly it has and likely in Zimbabwe. But trust me, 99% of ALL lion hunts throughout Zim, Moz, Zambia & Tanzania, are completely and totally WILD lions!

Aaron

Now I understand.

The only way to be certain that it is a wild lion is:

1. Trust that the booking agent, PH and outfitter are telling you the truth that you actually are hunting a wild lion.

2. You see for yourself a big male within a pride during your hunt.

Am I missing anything else?


Oherwise you cannot possible know the difference from a pet vs wild lion.

How do you know 1% of the lions taken from Zim,
Moz, Zambia and Tan. are pets?

Do you know what concession and outfitters are using pen-raised lions for hunts?


Please advise


dale

Dale - To some degree you are missing my point, to some degree you must always trust who you book/hunt with and lastly, you simply need alot more knowledge/experience hunting all across Africa.

Like anything, there is no substitute for experience. Once you experience lion hunting throughout Africa, you too would think differently, I guarantee it.

Recognizing a Pet lion, in almost every case I have ever seen, is EASY!! If you can't see the difference, I'm not sure what to tell ya, but I certainly can, and so can many others.

I don't know for sure that 1% of lions taken in these places are pets. My point was really the opposite. I believe its possible that it has occasionally happened, especially in Zim. But I am positive, it rarely if ever happens throughout these other countries in Africa. And I base that assessment on personal experience.

I don't personally know of ANY concessions/outfitters that would even consider using pen raised lions, period!

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Why does a guy have to kill nearly a dozen Lions? Just because you have the money? If one isn't bigger than the previous one what's the point. I've been a hunter all my life and for the life of me I can't see the point. Boddington has shot over 50 Buffalo...WHY? And can he even remember them all?

Why do you have to eat more than one steak?
Why do you have to eat more than one salmon?
Why do you have to eat more than one chicken?

After all, each piece of meat, whether from a chicken, cow, or fish, had to come from a another creature that had to be killed.

Yes I have shot many elk and Deer but also I EAT THEM. I just think that excessive shooting ( like a dozen lions/50 Buffalo) is greedy when it is an animal you do nothing with but kill. Could be part of the reason that African Lion hunting will soon be a thing of the past and believe it Boys it soon will be.

Chris,

Curious if you feel the same about coyotes, rock chucks, and gophers and the like?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from.

To each his own and that is what makes discussions and differing opinions interesting to me. I think I know something until someone points out a different perspective. May be right or wrong or neither but different.

Helena Chris (to distinguish the Chris')

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Yes I have shot many elk and Deer but also I EAT THEM. I just think that excessive shooting ( like a dozen lions/50 Buffalo) is greedy when it is an animal you do nothing with but kill. Could be part of the reason that African Lion hunting will soon be a thing of the past and believe it Boys it soon will be.

Got any trophies in your house? Just curious!

For the record I would kill 2,000 Buffalo if I had the time and means to do so. It's fun.

CEN, if lion hunting closes, it won't be because a tiny number of hunters put in the money and time to legally kill more than one lion each. As we all understand, the legal taking of mature lions is good for lions as a species, because it turns the cats into income producers for the locals and their governments. People take care of things that have value.

I suppose one could argue that an ignorant non-hunter might see Aaron's accomplishment and assume his choice to take more than one lion has resulted in more lions being taken - but you and I know that's not the case. Quotas are quotas, and it doesn't matter who does the shooting. If we want to see lion hunting continue, we need to educate the non-hunting world about how lions benefit from responsible sport hunting, and we need to explain the quota system and how sport hunting accounts for only a small fraction of the number of lions killed each year. We also need to avoid throwing stones at people who hunt lions ethically and legally, even if we don't personally feel the need to take as many lions as they have.

As far as greed is concerned, Aaron isn't keeping other people from shooting lions; he's participating as a buyer in the same market that everyone else is. When we start telling people they can't take more than one lion in a lifetime, or can't hunt in Africa more than once or, for that matter, buy more than one Mercedes, we're heading down a dangerous path.

Fishn4eyes- How nice it is to express an opinion and not be personally attacked or belittled.....you are to be commended. No I don't feel the same about varmints, Iam a hunter which of course makes me a killer. But it is the hunt I truely enjoy not so much the killing.Money has greatly affected the hunting world. Soon only the very rich will hunt (especially in Africa) and when that right to hunt becomes threatened, there won't be enough people to stand up for it because the "average Joe hunter" won't really care. End result will be Kenya...no wildlife except in parks and even that is not safe. So I guess my point is that it is shame that more hunters can't enjoy the African experience while others seem to get to more of their share by virtue of their wealth. I have nothing against you rich guys out there so please save your barbs for your fish hooks

From an average Joe....

Thank you rich guys for keeping the money flowing. I know I will never get to chase some of the animals you hunt; that's just the way it is; but giving them value will hopefully keep them around longer. And if its just to know they are still there; that is enough for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Fishn4eyes- How nice it is to express an opinion and not be personally attacked or belittled.....you are to be commended. No I don't feel the same about varmints, Iam a hunter which of course makes me a killer. But it is the hunt I truely enjoy not so much the killing.Money has greatly affected the hunting world. Soon only the very rich will hunt (especially in Africa) and when that right to hunt becomes threatened, there won't be enough people to stand up for it because the "average Joe hunter" won't really care. End result will be Kenya...no wildlife except in parks and even that is not safe. So I guess my point is that it is shame that more hunters can't enjoy the African experience while others seem to get to more of their share by virtue of their wealth. I have nothing against you rich guys out there so please save your barbs for your fish hooks

Rich guys? I love it. You know I took my first two Safaris this year. First time in my life I bought something that wasn't a need or didn't give me the potential for a return on the investment of the purchase.

I sold four guitars to finance part of the trip. I work 50 -60 hours a week. Started work when I was 14 because my Father told me if I wanted to drive when I was 16 I better start saving for the car now. That set the stage for the rest of my life.

My family thinks I still have my first dime because I'm so cheap yet I just spent more money to go hunting in Africa then some folks spend on a car.

It's my money and I worked for it. I'll spend it where I please. It was the "trip of a lifetime" that started an addiction I intend to feed.

Lion and Leopard are on the menu for 2012. I'll sell a couple more guitars and a muscle car to make that one happen.

Am I one of the "rich" that is going to ruin hunting for you and the rest of the world? I doubt it.

If Aaron or Saeed or anyone else for that matter can afford to hunt Africa or some other far corner of the Earth and by doing so, give value to the animal in a way that the locals look at it as more then a single chance at some stew and thus decide to join in protecting it then more power to them.

Good luck in getting past any jealousy you may have of their ability to do so.

I commend them for that ability.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Issues such as this are nothing new and if you'd care to read the book 'Killers in Africa. - The truth about animals lying in wait and hunters lying in print' by Alexander Lake that was written in about the 60s, you'll find that dubious lion practices were happening even then.

I had the pleasure of spending time with and speaking to Ludo Wulfbain (Safari Press) earlier this year. His thought on Lake (as were my good friend Cal's) were that Lake was SOOOOO full of it his eyes were brown!!!

Brett

Aaron,

I can only again refer you to my previous comments.

And I'll add that I reckon I've managed to get a fair amount of experience over the years and if you look at the piece below my sig, where it says location, you'll find a clue as to what I do nowadays.

465H&H

Your best way to be sure is to only book with a well known, well established reputable operator up there and there are plenty of seriously good ones. The article I posted the link to earlier is also a good guide about how to detect a dodgy one.

gerryb,

I think you did the gentlemanly thing in not telling the guys they'd been conned.

The cattle raiders coming from across the border is a popular one and there are several variations on the theme....... However, as I've said previously, I really can't see any being transported to countries like Tanzania because of the logistics involved.

One of several reasons it's not particularly difficult to achieve in RSA is that a lot of the land next to it's borders is privately owned and where the same situation occurs on the other side if the border, all it takes is a private arrangement between the two landowners. Moving them further from there would probably increase the risk dramatically.

Dale,

Figures aren't available of course but FWIW, I wouldn't put it at anywhere near a high percentage at all....... my point is that it can and does happen. The previously mentioned cases of the one in Zimbabwe and the two 'Botswana cattle killers' are good examples.

We should also remember that two very different catagories are being discussed here and indeed the definitions of those catagories aren't even clear cut. A canned lion as in a doped up lion in a small area etc is almost always easy to detect but a ringer, as in a farm bred lion that has been translocated to another area is usually considerably harder to detect.

A good example of the former might be that one that was on youtube a while ago where the guy was bowhunting a lion that could hardly keep his eyes open and they just walked up to it and whacked it.

A good example of the latter might be the 'Botswana cattle raiding lions' that were mentioned here. That would usually be considerably harder to detect.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
First, isn't pre-baiting in National Parks hunting areas in Zim, not allowed? Honestly, I do not remember, so someone clarify it for me.

You are correct. However not all the Matetsi parts are parks, so some of them can in fact be spot lighted and pre baited.......others not.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Why does a guy have to kill nearly a dozen Lions? Just because you have the money? If one isn't bigger than the previous one what's the point. I've been a hunter all my life and for the life of me I can't see the point. Boddington has shot over 50 Buffalo...WHY? And can he even remember them all?

So what? As long as it's sustainable....so what? I've shot enough whitetails that I have serious trouble remembering them all. Does that mean I should stop hunting whitetails? Or should I only be allowed to shoot bigger and even bigger whitetails even if I enjoy shooting does and smaller bucks? Why shouldn't someone shoot all the lions, elephant, buffalo, leopard, spotted owls, whitetails, ect, ect, ect they want as long as it's 1. legal and 2. sustainable? Well????????????????

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Aaron Neilson,

You posted impressive photos of spectacular lion trophies.

Do you have any suspicion that some or all of the lions in your photos could have been pen-raised and planted during or prior to the hunt?

I realize that you a booking agent for lion hunts and have authored a chapter in "Safari Guide II" specifically on lion hunting, but how do you know for certain that a hunter pursuing lion in any African country and is actually hunting wild lion?

Reading many of the responses in this post on this topic appears that I have a compelling argument that many lions taken each year are actually pets.


please advise,


dale

Dale - I have absolutely no suspicion of any funny business going on during any of my lion hunts. First, I know the guys well that I have hunted with. Secondly, I was on each hunt and know the circumstances of each one, and thirdly, trust me, I just know. Not a single one of them looks anything like a canned lion.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what I have been trying to tell Shakari. Folks like you, who have not done it, have now began to believe this sort of thing is common, simply because guys like Shakari, who claim to be experienced and speak the truth, say so! Dale, I'm not saying it has never happened, certainly it has and likely in Zimbabwe. But trust me, 99% of ALL lion hunts throughout Zim, Moz, Zambia & Tanzania, are completely and totally WILD lions!

Myself and some of my clients have taken some very big maned lions for two specific reasons. First is luck, and second is specifically hunting the places in Africa that can and still do, produce big maned lions!

Come spend a couple weeks with me in Tanzania in 2011, I can also set you up for a visit to Zambia and Zim. After that, you can tell me and the rest of AR what you think.

Chris E. Nelson - I think LionHunter covered that one for me.

Aaron,
I agree 100% with you. I wont point fingers at anybody, but this is exactly my frustrations with so many outfitters in Africa, not only RSA. There are way top many people that has jumped on the bandwagon on spreading the inconclusive rumour that majority of Lions in Africa is canned, and by canned I mean a Lion that has been drugged, or hand raised, or being fed by its owners.
A few of these outfitters were exposed, they were sorted out , and that is it. The world is watching now, and it has become a lot more difficult to pull this off now, and for the good.

But to believe that majority of hunts are canned in Africa is crazy

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Yes I have shot many elk and Deer but also I EAT THEM. I just think that excessive shooting ( like a dozen lions/50 Buffalo) is greedy when it is an animal you do nothing with but kill. Could be part of the reason that African Lion hunting will soon be a thing of the past and believe it Boys it soon will be.

Chris
I do see your point in asking the question, but are you saying that African Lion hunting will come to an end because of the numbers that are shot, or because there are too few hunters shooting too many lions. The bottom line is that if there are X lions available, it makes no different if they are shot by 1 Hunter, or 200 hunters....the same amount get shot. its the quota system that matters, not who shoots them.

I tend to disagree with the fact that Lion hunting in Africa will soon be a thing of the past. Laws will come and go, but in Africa, economics will always dictate policy eventually.

Hunting Dangerous Game in Africa will always be the pursuit of a very select few(relatively). A small percentage of American, European, Asian based hunters will ever make the journey and realise their dreams. Facts are facts, many simply cannot afford the travels costs, let alone the trophy fees and daily rates. But for those who can afford it, who work hard and save their money, or simply just have enough money to do it over and over again, their dollars are all the same and contribute in exactly the same way toward the species they are hunting and the welfare of the areas etc. So if Aaron has shot 100 Lions, it is exactly the same as 100 lions being shot by 100 different hunters in terms of cause and effect on the hunting Industry.

Hope you see my point

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
Reading many of the responses in this post on this topic appears that I have a compelling argument that many lions taken each year are actually pets.

Not at all. You do however have a few anicdotal stories from second or third person. I hardly think that constitues evidence to argue "that many lions taken each year are actually pets". I do think it constitutes enough to entertain the idea that it has probably happened at some time in the past even if it is rather incredibly improbable to happen to any one hunter on a given wild lion hunt.

As to hunters getting suckered into shooting tame lions behind fences in RSA as wild lions.......I find it hard to believe that many if any hunters head over to Africa on a lion hunt for a tame lion without knowing what's going on. Now a first time rookie falling into the wrong hands and being offered a "problem lion" once in country on their hunt....I could believe it! Is is common? I doubt it and certainly hope not, but I'm sure it probably does happen from time to time. Much like the gentleman who came on here posting about his wild RSA lion hunt on the Botswana border......

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
But to believe that majority of hunts are canned in Africa is crazy

Marius,

No-one has suggested that at all.

All that has been suggested is that it can and does sometimes happen in some places.

As I said earlier:

I appreciate I'm probably considered a bit of a radical on this subject, but if I had my way, It'd be completely illegal for anyone to posess, breed or keep any lions whatsoever (anywhere in Africa) with the exception of game dept and zoos...... and that ban would include those bloody silly privately owned rescue centres.

Until that happens, there's always the chance that dodgy dealings can happen.

The S.A. Lion Breeders Association fought tooth and nail to protect their industry....and succeeded (sadly).
To what end? Who are the main buyers? Kruger and other National Parks?
We have already been given an idea on the approximate number of captive Lions in their possession and the furor it raised when they were initially informed that they had to shut shop and get rid of them.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
All that has been suggested is that it can and does sometimes happen in some places.

When, where, and who???? Seriously lets hear it!

I believe these are the exact vague and general statements that Aaron is illuding to that cause uninformed minds to run wild.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Fishn4eyes- How nice it is to express an opinion and not be personally attacked or belittled.....you are to be commended. No I don't feel the same about varmints, Iam a hunter which of course makes me a killer. But it is the hunt I truely enjoy not so much the killing.Money has greatly affected the hunting world. Soon only the very rich will hunt (especially in Africa) and when that right to hunt becomes threatened, there won't be enough people to stand up for it because the "average Joe hunter" won't really care. End result will be Kenya...no wildlife except in parks and even that is not safe. So I guess my point is that it is shame that more hunters can't enjoy the African experience while others seem to get to more of their share by virtue of their wealth. I have nothing against you rich guys out there so please save your barbs for your fish hooks

Rich guys? I love it. You know I took my first two Safaris this year. First time in my life I bought something that wasn't a need or didn't give me the potential for a return on the investment of the purchase.

I sold four guitars to finance part of the trip. I work 50 -60 hours a week. Started work when I was 14 because my Father told me if I wanted to drive when I was 16 I better start saving for the car now. That set the stage for the rest of my life.

My family thinks I still have my first dime because I'm so cheap yet I just spent more money to go hunting in Africa then some folks spend on a car.

It's my money and I worked for it. I'll spend it where I please. It was the "trip of a lifetime" that started an addiction I intend to feed.

Lion and Leopard are on the menu for 2012. I'll sell a couple more guitars and a muscle car to make that one happen.

Am I one of the "rich" that is going to ruin hunting for you and the rest of the world? I doubt it.

If Aaron or Saeed or anyone else for that matter can afford to hunt Africa or some other far corner of the Earth and by doing so, give value to the animal in a way that the locals look at it as more then a single chance at some stew and thus decide to join in protecting it then more power to them.

Good luck in getting past any jealousy you may have of their ability to do so.

I commend them for that ability.

You rich, gluttonous, bastard!!!!!! How dare you......and I hope my physical and blood labs go towards your lion trophy fee!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

When, where, and who???? Seriously lets hear it!

I believe these are the exact vague and general statements that Aaron is illuding to that cause uninformed minds to run wild.

Brett

Brett,

What part of these posts don't you understand?

I've said one of our members who is a well respected PH (Someone else mentioned who it was, but for clarification it was Ganyana) posted the story about the Zim lion and the delivering driver breaking an axle and the client meeting up with the guy in the skinning shed.

I've also said about the guy who posted either here or on hunt reports where a bunch of them had all shot what he thought were wild lions and he claimed it was the most fun anyone could have with their trousers on. (Actually, I think he was American so he might have said pants)

gerry has also mentioned the 'Botswana cattle raiders' as well.

There's three examples right there and if you want to know more about two of those three, I suggest you use the search function.

You might have to spend some time on it though as I don't remember when or where they were posted. I think either this forum or the hunt reports but I don't remember which.

I'm also sure that if you use that same search function, you'll probably find other lion hunts that could well have been somewhat dubious as to their wildness...... I seem to remember at least one where the guy thought it was so surprising that the lion ran towards the truck when he saw it........ and it doesn't take much to suss that one out does it?

ADDED

Oh and you might also like to have your secretary do a Google on the RSA TV programme Carte Blanche that a week or two ago had a piece about the dodgy lion breeding industry etc. I'd have thought you could probably still either view the piece or find the script on their website.

Steve,

I'm not talking about canned RSA hunts. I'm talking about tame lions being transported into wild lion areas in other countries. The only hunt that anyone has ever mentioned that implies a tame lion was transported into a wild lion area in another country is the broken axle deal. The others you mentioned are canned hunts in RSA that someone was duped on. So other than the broken axle hunt (with no names, area, or time for reference....not that it didn't happen) when, where, and with who else has this happened???

You said: "it can and does sometimes happen in some places."

Not does once acording to Ganyana, but "does sometimes" imlying it's happened more than once or quite a few times. So other than the broken axle story from second or third hand when else has this ever happened outside of RSA? Not "I'm sure it probably has", but when else or are you just speculating that it's happened more than once?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Chris E Nelson:
Yes I have shot many elk and Deer but also I EAT THEM. I just think that excessive shooting ( like a dozen lions/50 Buffalo) is greedy when it is an animal you do nothing with but kill. Could be part of the reason that African Lion hunting will soon be a thing of the past and believe it Boys it soon will be.

Every lion, buffalo and elephant that I have shot have been eaten.

It really is no diffrent than you shooting so many elk or deer.