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So why couldn't someone love lion or buffalo hunting so much that they want to hunt them over and over. And because they hunt them so frequently they have shot quite a few? Not because of some untamable blood lust fueled by unlimited money, but because they love the hunt. I don't think that's unreasonable or any different than someone doing the same with whitetails or gophers for that matter. Do you? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, I did mention that we were discussing two separate catagories and that the dividing line between them is sometimes cloudy. If you read my posts again, you'll see that I say that no-one really knows how often if happens because only those that get caught, get caught. My personal opinion is (as I've said before) that it's only a small percentage but does ir happen? Yes it does. how do I know it happens? By a variety of ways. The ones we see here, the ones I've been offered in the past (don't ask me to name names because I won't) and simply because I've been involved in the hunting industry for donkey's years and have a reasonably good intelligence network. How could you work out how often it happens? Very difficult to answer that one. Maybe one could look at the area where the Zim lion was taken and try to find out how many others were taken there and try to quantify it by extrapolation but I doubt it'd be accurate. - One could also try to find out how many 'cattle raiders' had been taken, where they were taken and the history of wild lions in those areas but again, I doubt the figures would be accurate. One could also question areas that haven't seen a wild lion in a decade but are suddenly producing them on a regular basis. Again, as I've said before, the real key is to make sure you book with a well established and reputable outfit. Zim for example (which I would imagine is one of the most popular hunting African nations) has some superb operators who are 1000% reliable. I personally think that the article I posted the link to is very accurate and well worth reading, esp for anyone considering a lion hunt in southern Africa. | |||
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Chris: Don't for one minute think that meat from these animals is wasted. There are dozens of AR members who have been on one or more African safaris who will declare you wrong. You may or may not have read the various posts where the hunter is astounded by the velocity and voracity with which the carcass of an elephant is stripped ...leaving nothing for the vultures. | |||
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Steve have you heard of ANY other examples of tame lions being transported into another country to be hunted in a wild hunting area other than Ganyana's story? A simple "Yes" or "No". If "Yes" let's hear it! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, Yes I have. I'm not sure but I think you can probably find other examples here (or elsewhere) and more particularly, I seem to remember something about Tuli Circle (as opposed to block) being mentioned. Then you might like to do a bit of researching on the cross border 'cattle raiders' that crop up from time to time. I'm not suggesting that all are transplanted just that some might be. Nor am I suggesting it's a daily occurrance, just that it can and does happen and I've now given you three examples plus the Carte Blanche programme (Actually, they've covered canned hunting and porus borders at least 3 times over the years that I can remember)so I'm sure you'll appreciate that it can happen. Hell, RSA can't even police their borders to stop hundreds of illegal immigrants coming in on a daily basis so there's not much chance they can stop the odd sleepy lion migrating across the other way. | |||
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Folks this thread has gotten to the point where no one is listening to anything anyone else has said. From what I have read, the two main antagonists are actually almost arguing the same point. Shakari has said that whilst he does not believe that it is a common occurence, he does believe that there have been captive Bred lions transported into Zim , Botswana or Zambia. When he refers to the common factor, it is with reference to Lion hunting in RSA, rather than in other African states. He goes as far as to say that he is doubtful that Tanzania would ever have been a destination for Lions from RSA. Aaron is saying that the occurence of captive bred Lions in African States other than RSA is very small indeed. I understand however his comments on painting a black pic for the prospective Lion Hunter, but I dont think that is what Shakari was attempting to do in all honesty as he was very quick to state(several times) that the likelihood of shooting a captive bred lion outside of SA was small. I think the reality of the situation is that whilst we all detest the practice, it does occur. I honestly believe, with all my heart that 99.99% of all lion taken in Zimbabwe have been honestly taken. The same would go for Zambia and Botswana. I wish I could say 100%, but facts are facts and I cant. Every single one of us can play a role in curbing the practice by bringing any dodgy adverts, videos ,offers etc to the attention of this forum and any others that care to listen. Bad publicity for any entity cant be good for business. | |||
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Does anyone know if lions are being pen raised in African countries other than South Africa? If so, what are the total lion numbers held in captivity and which have counties have lion farms? Has any game department or private rancher ever release captive lions into the wild as a stocking program? Please advise, dale | |||
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God? Are you listening? We need some answers here.  | |||
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Obama needs to get this cat some safari vouchers from the stimulus package.  Shakari, how many lion hunts have you personally PH'd? | |||
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You'd have to do a bit of Googling but I'm sure you'll find lion breeders in more than one other southern African country...... I might be wrong but seem to remember one breeder (I think in Zim?) sadly had one of his kids injured or killed by one of his captive bred lions a year or two ago. As for release into the wild. A few people have done it, notably George Adamson of Born Free fame but it's not easy to do and I'd be surprised if it happens very often. | |||
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Actually, Saeed, I think that there was a huge difference. The vast bulk of the meat from the animals you shot was probably consumed by people who were short of protein and really, truly needed it. Chris Nelson, were you starved for protein when you shot and ate those deer and elk...or was there any element of enjoyment that motivated their excessive slaughter? John | |||
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Wow, you go to bed for 8 hrs and you miss alot! Zimfrosty probably gave some good input, of course I agree, but my stance will not let me agree totally. IMO, continuing to perpetuate falsehoods as it pertains to Lion Hunting & Lion Conservation, is shameful. For those that choose to do it, remember this. Actions have reactions, and once its out there, it can't be taken back. Its especially shameful when one is doing it, simply out of need for attention and recognition. Chris Nelson - Sorry you don't agree with what Saeed and I do, thank god we live in a free country. One where folks who are passionate about lion & buffalo hunting, are allowed to partake in our favorite sport, just as much as you partake in your favorite deer & elk hunting. Man, to think another hunter would actually bad mouth what we choose to hunt most, simply because its different than what he chooses to hunt, is probably the most shameful of all. The "poor me" syndrome amongst many who claim someone else shouldn't be able to do something, simply because they can't do it, is pathetic! Last I checked, we still for the moment, live in a capitalistic/free market society. One where you are free to do as you wish, and make as much money as you are willing to work for. So maybe you, the "average Joe" should work harder, get a better job, or change occupations? Then you too could afford to do whatever you want, and wouldn't have time to whine about others getting to do something that you can't. I too have lots of things I can't afford to do, and I know many who can. I say, "good for them"! They earned it in one way or another, and that's the way life goes. Good luck guys, I gotta go out for a day or so and help one of our new guides kill a big 200" muley they found last night (bow Hunter). Be back tomorrow. | |||
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Just an intersting side note, while I was in Africa a few weeks back there was a TV show on called "Carte Blanche" (sp?) Its like a euro version of sixty minutes. Anyway they did a portion of the show about the canned lion industry in SA and current legislative debates about to come to decision there. The entire show, I believe unintentionaly, ended up showing it as a bunch of self-righteous white women versus the rich white ranching men. Nothing looked like it was a battle for the lions but some wierd sexist cultural attack. I wondered if it was an accidental window to peoples true motivations. | |||
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Hello? | |||
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Chris, The American experience and the African experience are apples and oranges. American qame departments are financed by taxes and by fees. African game departments are financed mostly by fees. Without the high fees, there would be no money for games scouts, anti-poaching patrols, and so on. Also, the average Joe in America is a voter and this is not necessarily so in Africa. Every concession in Africa has yearly quotas, issued by the game department, for each species in its area. It matters not whether a lion permit, or a leopard permit, or a kudu permit, is bought by a newbie or by a hunter who has killed a bunch of said animals. I know that Aaron is not a "rich guy,' but that he is consumed by lion hunting and is a real expert on it. I suggest that you not get caught between Aaron, Saeed, Steve, and others who know what they are talking about when you obviously are clueless. | |||
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505 Sorry, I missed your post. If you check my posts on previous threads, including similar ones ones to this and going back to whenever I registered, you'll find I've always given the same answer all the way through and incidentally, I always give the same answer to clients and others that ask about any species. The number of any species I've hunted is between me and my maker. I consider it both unlucky and disrespectful to the animals to keep count of dead animals and the older I get, the stronger I feel about that. I don't know if it's an English trait or what it is but I've always felt that way and have never even kept count of the birds I've shot on any given day. However, as I've pointed out before, they don't go from this:  To this:  by sitting in the safe. | |||
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505Gibbs - You have your answer, ZERO!!!! | |||
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Aaron, You'd lose if you put money on that. In fact, I'll bet you US$500 payable to Help For Heroes that I can disprove that statement. | |||
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Steve, How about you post a few pictures of lions you've taken with your trademark/name on the picture. We've all seen the camp raiding Selous lion and the nicely maned one on you website. Post some other lions you've personally guided clients to. That way you don't have to disclose how many. Let's see it! Have you ever hunted and shot a lion youself? Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Its quite sad to see the youngsters belittling their elders (or trying to). They don't realize that there are some individuals on this site that have hunted on even footing and in the same era with the likes of Cottar, Nicholson, Miller, Samaras, Angelides, Palmer Wilson, etc. The same era when a resident hunter could shoot (legally) up to 5 elephants a year at 600 shs. a pop; when a General Game License cost 500shs. I fully agree with Steve - what has been achieved by these individuals are their memories, and have absolutely no need for the self-glorification that appears to be the trend by some folks on AR. There are however a good number of excellent young PHs out there - most of whom have learnt the ropes from the wise old farts, but given the change of times, will never be able to match the adventures and personal achievements of those gentlemen. So to goad someone like Steve to declare how many personal lion or elephant, etc. he has shot in his lifetime demonstrates a degree of ignorance and lack of respect for one of the "old guys who's been there and done it". | |||
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Dale W., I think from reading your posts that you feel there is a commonly held belief that many lion hunts offered throughout wild Africa are actually for pen raised lions. Guess what? Not one person I've ever talked to concerning the possible bookng of a lion hunt has ever asked if they would be hunting anything but a wild lion. Do you think that is because they are ignorant of the facts or do you suppose it is because the hunting of pen raised lions in wild areas is so rare that it's not even worth talking about? I think it's the latter. Chris C. Nelson, Two points: First to reinforce what has been said before no edible protein goes to waste in Africa. All edible meat, organs, intestines are retrieved and believe me far more of the animal is eaten than you would even consider sinking your teeth into. Most often the recipients of the meat are protein starved folks that really appreciate and need the meat. A large portion of the money generated by the safari goes right back into improving the habitat for the aniamls. In Africa the animal populations are not maintained by the governments for the recreational value to the citizens. In Africa if the animals do not pay their own way their enviroment becomes grazing for goats and cattle. Cats for cultural or other reasons may not be eaten but the great amount of money generated by the cat safaris and its benefit to locals and the animals more than makes up for the possible lost protein. Second safari does not need to be exclusively a rich man's sport. Many people of moderate means get to hunt Africa. They make a plan, save their pennies and change their lifestyle to allow them the money to go. Africa just becomes a priority in thier life. A great many people can afford a safari if they really want the experience. You know guys when you post on a thread guns blazing when you have very little knowledge about the subject your going to get some stinging return comments. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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505, was that aimed at me? If so, the perhaps-uncalled-for sarcasm in my post to CN was too vague. If you were aiming elsewhere, then ignore this post. Sorry for the temporary highjack here...back to regularly scheduled programming. John | |||
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Disappointing, really disappointing!!  SUSTAINABLY HUNTING THE BLUE PLANET! "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable and to give an appearence of solidity to pure wind." Dr J A du Plessis | |||
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Aaron, I will help you to pay that bet, if you where to loose it (NOT that you need it by the way, seeing that you have too much money and kill too many lions...! :-)), on the condition that we throw in a few elephant as well. And no cover hunting, actual names on the paper. (RSA dont count, for lions anyways....) Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Careful guys. Looks like the pinkies up club is getting upset. | |||
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And of that I have no doubt. I'm sure you are one of those. As are Harry Selby, Gerard Miller, Robin Hurt, Danny McCallum, Luke Samaras, ect, ect, ect, ect. "Its quite sad to see the youngsters belittling their elders (or trying to)." I'm sure I'm one of the youngsters. I can appreciate your though on that. We got cross ways once on a previous thread and that was my fault for which I've appologized. I just think as do a growing number of others on here that Steve may not be the super experience African PH he would lead you to believe. Is he a nice guy? Sure. I've met him. Is he a PH? Sure. Or at least he was as he doesn't hunt much any more and is pretty much retired. Does he have something to contribute to AR? Of course! It just makes one wonder when he says he has tons of photos from past hunts and decades of experience and then all you hear are the same couple stories and see the same couple pictures. There's nothing wrong with that....except that some on here might take his comments as fact because he seems to be a super experience authority when perhaps he is not. Not a big deal in theory unless someone uses Steve's faulty info to decide on a $100,000+ lion hunt. I'm not saying he isn't experienced. What I'm saying is it's starting to get a little fishy. When I hear a seemingly lame excuse once....ok. When I hear different lame excuses over and over and over for why he doesn't post pictures, talk about professional hunting experience, or talk about personal hunting experience????? You really start to wonder. So I don't think it's out of line to ask a PH if he's ever personally hunted lion? If so has he been successful? What countries has he hunted and/or taken lion in professionally? How many lions has he taken? I couldn't ever imagine being put out (upset/unwilling to cooperate) by a patient asking me where I've practice? How long I've practiced? What's my training? or What's my experience? That's their right to know and I can't imagine another doctor not being willing to tell them! It's the same with a PH. If a client is looking to book a hunt with you and wants to ask you a few questions wouldn't you answer them to the best of your ability? No one is asking him how many women he's had sex with or how much money he makes! These are professional questions. I just don't get it! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I know for an absolute fact that 2 individuals are raising them in Zim. what they do with them( and they have a lot of them) I have no idea but i bet it is expensive to feed. i have personally seen several huge males in pens on a game ranch i hunted several years ago and i know the owner STILL has a lot of them on several properties scattered around Zim( and this guy lost an arm to one of his "pets"!!) Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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When in a Lion blind put a saucer of milk out under the bait tree. The wild Lion will turn his nose up at it. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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A question: How many young Phs (say sub-35 y.o.)in Africa that guide DG including lion do people think have personally shot a lion themselves? Or a leopard? An elephant? And if so, how many believe they have taken more than a half dozen of each? Or a dozen? I don't know the answer but I hazard to suggest that WE WOULD BE SUPRISED how many have not taken all of the Big 4 themselves! I guess what I am saying is that the difficult part is the hunt leading to the pulling of the trigger - and any eventual follow-up - that matters most in gaining experience on DG hunting! You don't have to have killed these yourself to gain experience in hunting DG and qualify to offer advice  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Brett, Firstly, I've never claimed to be super experienced at all but if you think I have, show me where? In fact, you'll find that just yesterday, I posted that another (younger) PH would know far more about the subject in hand than I would. If you'd care to review any of my posts, you'll find that all I do is try to shed light of difficult subjects by giving accurate information. More often than not, my posts will almost always take the form of "look here for that information" rather than "when I was doing whatever, we did it this way etc". If you check any of the many articles I've written for websites and various mags, you'll find that 99% at least are simple, straight forward, 'how to' articles rather than 'chest thumpers'. However, everything I say I've done, I have done and it's as simple as that. nothing more and nothing less. I don't need to brag about it and I prefer not to because apart from anything else, I don't think I particularly have anything to brag about. I well know that all I am is a hairy arsed shit kicker. ..... Whether you or anyone else likes my attitude or not is entirely your/their problem. As I've repeatedly said, I don't need to justify myself to any bugger and I won't but if anyone wants to know the basics about me, all they have to do is look at the two websites at the bottom of my posts. If I wanted my entire life history plastered all over the place, I'd have entered the X Factor. As to my claiming I have tons of pictures.... where have I ever said that then? All I've said is that I no longer post pictures because of image or content theft and anyone who thinks that isn't a serious problem is mistaken. To give you an idea of how strongly I feel about that, try going to one of our sites and right clicking. Pretty much all 600 and odd pages are right click disabled and have been for several years. It doesn't stop the thefts completely but it does make it a lot more difficult. Or at least, more time consuming for the thieves. Theres also the fact that I simply don't want to. Frankly, the older I get, the more convinced I am that dead animal with hunter pics don't do any of us or our sport any favours at all....... and the youtube (etc) videos are even worse. As for your claim to have met me... where would that be? - Because I don't remember ever meeting you. We've emailed and PMd occasionally when you've asked me for info but nothing more. As for your claim of my selling hunts here..... Where on any forum have I ever tried to peddle a hunt? I don't think I ever have and it's unlikely I ever will. If someone wants to enquire about a hunt, they'll send me an email and one of the the first things I'll probably tell them is that it's unlikely I'll be their PH. I give them the information they ask for and don't ever give them the hard sell at all...... and if I don't try to sell hunts here, why on earth would I post pictures? Nor incidentally, do I ever make any promises I can't keep. For example, if someone asks me if I can promise them 2 buffalo over whatever inches, my reply will be something like, no, I won't promise you that. I promise you we'll do our best to get what you want and I'm sure you'll have a good hunt but anyone who makes you such a promise is living in dreamland and is making that promise to make the sale and I just can't bring myself to do that. This thread has magically gone from a discussion about lions to a personal attack on me and it appears to me that the reason it's done that is because I told the truth about the question that was asked. (and directed people to where they could find the proof of my statements) As I said at least twice before, it might be an inconvenient truth but it is nevertheless the truth.... It strikes me that one of the problems in this thread is that some people don't actually read and comprehend my comments. They seem to read the first and last sentence (at most) and imagine everything in between and another seems to me to be that they don't like me to speak the truth for whatever reason. There's nothing I can do about that. If people are going to get upset about issues such as this, they should get upset about it happening and try to work towards stopping it happening and cleaning up the industry rather than get all upset because someone tells the truth about it happening....... but that of course, doesn't do the mighty mighty dollar any good does it? As I see it, this forum should be about debate and exchange of information so that hunters know the truth and don't get a different product to the one they were promised or expected to get, but some individuals sometimes have a habit of tracking individuals and attacking them at every turn and for some bizarre reason those individuals are usually those who know what they're talking about. Some are client hunters, some are PHs and some are Outfitters. Perhaps some people should stop and think about some of the guys who fit into those catagories and who used to post here and seem to have disappeared (or at least rarely post) in recent years/months and how much knowledge, experience and information is lost due to their absence. The most common reason they leave is that they don't like the pissing matches and needless flaming that goes on. The other point I'll make is that someone recently posted a thread entitled something like 'Let's be careful what we post' and that's very true because there are people out there that will take advantage of some comments etc that might be made for their own purposes. Which I guess takes me back to my point about image and content theft and if you want proof of how serious that can damage a business, a sport, an individual or an industry, take a LONG, HARD, SLOW look here: http://www.animalrightsafrica...._July_2010_final.pdf I guarantee the individuals and companies featured in that little gem of anti hunting bullshit have no idea their content and images are being used for such purposes and nor would they give permission for their content and images to be used for such purposes...... but of course, they think image and content theft etc is bullshit, don't they? | |||
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Just for your information Steve. I dont think your Image theft thing is working because I have seen "alot" of pics of you on Facebook..No cat pics though. | |||
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I'd be surprised if you have because I've only signed up for Facebook twice and both times closed my account within an hour or so because both times some bugger tried to hack my account. I also had concerns about the way they seem to me to access your address book which was another reason I closed the account pretty damn quick. I've never made a single post on Facebook so if you've seen pics of me there, then someone else has posted them without my permission. Incidentally, I don't belong to any of the others such as Twitter either for similar reasons. But you're right, image and content theft is the very devil to stop..... we've been victims a number of times and that link I posted proves just how common it is. All you can do is make it as difficult as possible for them and hope they'll go to an easier site to steal stuff from. | |||
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Yes, the photos I have seen are not from you. | |||
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Then I have no idea who they're from and I don't remember anyone ever asking me for permission to post them. ADDED, Actually, I do vaugely remember one guy asking me some considerable time ago but I can't remember who it might have been or why. | |||
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Comes as no surprise that several AR members have been given the due publicity that they were looking for !! | |||
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Steve, I like you and it's not that I don't. I just get the feeling sometimes that people hold you as an expert. Perhaps you are, but I'm not sure. I have my doubts. If someone held me as and expert and I knew it......I'd be the first one to correct them and let them know otherwise because I do NOT have the experience to be an expert and give expert advice.  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett, I think I actually said a lot of our clients prefer to keep their images private etc and they do. Some indeed do have good reason to and I respect that completely. 'Fraid I don't remember meeting you at all but if you say we did meet, then we did and my memory, which isn't the best in the world, fails me. As far as lions being moved, you might like to check my previous comments, esp about the various Carte Blanche programmes and possibly also the anti hunting PDF which details the subject of RSA lions fairly extensively and I doubt they'll have left that bit out. As for the rest, I can only again refer you to my previous comments and again, you might like to look at the PDF to see my point..... and BTW (IMO) comments such as 'lion porn' is the sort of thing that'll find it's way right onto those anti hunting PDFs and doesn't do us any favours either. I'm sure you think it's a cool phrase but I doubt the antis will and I'm sure you'll agree there's no doubt now that they visit sites such as this on a regular basis. Oh, and I think you'll find I've never described myself as an expert in anything at all.... An expert is a man from the next town who owns a briefcase and I don't own a briefcase. | |||
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