Posted for daleW:

I have never hunted lion.

How do you determine if a lion was "captive-farm raised" or born wild free range lion?

I suppose the absolute truth is that you would have to belive your outfitter and PH?


please advise,


dale



Have at it.....

Brett

This might help:

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Posted for daleW:

I have never hunted lion.

How do you determine if a lion was "captive-farm raised" or born wild free range lion?

I suppose the absolute truth is that you would have to belive your outfitter and PH?


please advise,


dale



Have at it.....

Brett

Doing your best to keep discussions out of the hunt reports section eh?

All captive bred lions have a tag implanted 2"-3" inside their rectum, the best way to avoid doing something unethical is to check before you shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
All captive bred lions have a tag implanted 2"-3" inside their rectum, the best way to avoid doing something unethical is to check before you shoot.

LOL

The captive bred lions are the ones behind the big fence!! The same fence you must enter and exit to shoot one. Thus the reason I have NEVER bought the notion that the hunter "didn't know"!

Brett,

Aaron is right. I just find it hard to fathom that it is cost effective to bring a captive bred lion to a concession area and release it for someone to shoot. I suppose it is possible but I'd think it highly unlikely. What if the guy misses or the lion just walks into the next concession?

As far as being able to tell a wild lion from a pen raised one even I can tell the difference and I'm no lion expert. I've been to a lion breeding facility and I promise you nothing in the wild looks that good.

Finally if you think there is a real chance your PH might be pulling your leg about the lion you probably should have booked with someone else.

Mark

quote:

have never hunted lion.

How do you determine if a lion was "captive-farm raised" or born wild free range lion?

I suppose the absolute truth is that you would have to belive your outfitter and PH?


please advise,


dale

Ask him!

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
All captive bred lions have a tag implanted 2"-3" inside their rectum, the best way to avoid doing something unethical is to check before you shoot.

So, if you reach in up to your elbow and find no tag, then everything's legit?

Note to self: Pack short sleeve shirts for lion safari.

I have never hunted lion either but I have heard that some cues to determine whether the lion is wild or pen raised are:

1. The location you are hunting. As I understand it in S. Africa the possibility of hunting a wild lion are about nil. Not impossible but pretty damned unlikely.

2. Penned lions look to good to be true; flowing manes and beautiful skin. A wild lion accumulates scars and it is mane is somewhat ragged. It looks like it has spent its life in the bush and not a pen.

3. When confronted with a human, wild lions size you up as a possible threat. They focus on your prescence to see what you are up to. Penned lions appear casual and almost disinterested because they are used to people.

I think it boils down to if it appears to be good good to be true it probably is.

About $20,000 and 21 days of dayrate is the main difference. The wild ones are more pricy.

These are 3 absolute truths or myths?:


1. All the lions hunted and killed in Africa are wild except those in South Africa.

Is the above statement true or false?

2. No captive-pen raised lions have ever been released into any hunting concessions other than those of South Africa?

Is this staement true or false?

3. The only party that know for a fact that the lion hunted is wild or pen-raised is the PH or outfitter.

Is this statement true or false?


It is really simple.


dale

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
These are 3 absolute truths or myths?:


1. All the lions hunted and killed in Africa are wild except those in South Africa.

Is the above statement true or false?

2. No captive-pen raised lions have ever been released into any hunting concessions other than those of South Africa?

Is this staement true or false?

3. The only party that know for a fact that the lion hunted is wild or pen-raised is the PH or outfitter.

Is this statement true or false?


It is really simple.


dale

1. False
2. False
3. False.

Aaron, you hit the nail on the head my friend.

I have been saying this for years.

One man who shot a lion in pen told me it was a wild lion.

When I asked him did he have to go through a gate?

He said yes, but that lion was inside tha fence because it broke into the fence to kill teh animals inside it. That is why I was asked if I wanted to shoot it!

Oh, I almost forgot, the white ones are pen raised, and yes, there are places that offer them. Charlie?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Posted for daleW:

I have never hunted lion.

How do you determine if a lion was "captive-farm raised" or born wild free range lion?

I suppose the absolute truth is that you would have to belive your outfitter and PH?


please advise,


dale



Have at it.....

Brett

If the sit, put their paws up and beg for food?

Or, here's another hint ...





Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Doing your best to keep discussions out of the hunt reports section eh?

Doing what I can. Between the hunt reports and hunt offers this is getting out of hand. We have an African Big Game Hunting forum for a reason.......

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Brett,

Aaron is right. I just find it hard to fathom that it is cost effective to bring a captive bred lion to a concession area and release it for someone to shoot. I suppose it is possible but I'd think it highly unlikely. What if the guy misses or the lion just walks into the next concession?

As far as being able to tell a wild lion from a pen raised one even I can tell the difference and I'm no lion expert. I've been to a lion breeding facility and I promise you nothing in the wild looks that good.

Finally if you think there is a real chance your PH might be pulling your leg about the lion you probably should have booked with someone else.

Mark

It's not me asking/wanting to know Mark, but yes I totally agree with you on all accounts.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by daleW:
1. All the lions hunted and killed in Africa are wild except those in South Africa.

2. No captive-pen raised lions have ever been released into any hunting concessions other than those of South Africa?

3. The only party that know for a fact that the lion hunted is wild or pen-raised is the PH or outfitter.

1. I have no way of knowing, but I'd guess False.

2. I suppose anything is possible, but my guess would be some of the privately owned wild areas of Namibia and Zimbabwe would be ripe for this weather it is actually done or not????????? I tend to agree with Mark that releasing pen raised lions into wild, unfenced, government owned areas doesn't make much sense. So a maybe for this one.

3. False. I'm sure the hunters usually know or at the very least suspect.......if they're REALLY niave!

Brett

You guys who think captive bred lions don't (fairly regularly) get transported across African borders are very much mistaken.

As just one example of this one of our regular and very respected posters told a story a year or two ago (ish) either here on on the hunt reports where a client (from another company) shot a lion in Zimbabwe and later that evening went round to the skinning sheds to take a look and found a guy there trying to fix a broken axle on a (caged) trailer.

They got talking and the guy told the client, he'd dropped a doped lion off early that morning and broken the trailer as he left.

Yup, same lion and I believe the client refused to pay for it.

Not only does it happen, I think you'll find it happens on a fairly regular basis and to all kinds of people.......... easy to detect, it ain't.

The most obvious give aways are usually a lack of scarring and sometimes too much of an MGM look..... and of course, the appearance of a wild lion in places where a wild lion hasn't been seen in decades.

Don't think it's anything new and don't think there isn't 1001 different dodgy scenarios to pass it off either.

I know that there are some outifitters in South Africa who specialize in this sort of thing.

Just look at web sites where they claim to have guided so many hunters to get so many SCI awards!

For those of us who have been hunting for so many years, we KNOW that one gets to find big trophies by shear luck.

Once a Ph or an outfitter starts claiming that he had guided an extraordinary number of clients to an extraordinary number of SCI record book high rankings, the stench becomes unbearable.

I was asked once if I wanted to shoot a "problem" lion in South Africa.

I laughed and told the man I wasn't interested.

On another occasion I was asked if I would mind shooting some bulls that have gone wild.

I said I would, but sadly we did not see any.

It would have been more sporting than shooting a "problem" lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I know that there are some outifitters in South Africa who specialize in this sort of thing.

Plenty of proof of this in the hunting magazine ads.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
You guys who think captive bred lions don't (fairly regularly) get transported across African borders are very much mistaken.

As just one example of this one of our regular and very respected posters told a story a year or two ago (ish) either here on on the hunt reports where a client (from another company) shot a lion in Zimbabwe and later that evening went round to the skinning sheds to take a look and found a guy there trying to fix a broken axle on a (caged) trailer.

They got talking and the guy told the client, he'd dropped a doped lion off early that morning and broken the trailer as he left.

Yup, same lion and I believe the client refused to pay for it.

Not only does it happen, I think you'll find it happens on a fairly regular basis and to all kinds of people.......... easy to detect, it ain't.

The most obvious give aways are usually a lack of scarring and sometimes too much of an MGM look..... and of course, the appearance of a wild lion in places where a wild lion hasn't been seen in decades.

Don't think it's anything new and don't think there isn't 1001 different dodgy scenarios to pass it off either.

Steve.
I do beleive that a certain Zim operator had his licence revoked several years ago following an investigation into a similiar sounding incident. I do not know the full details, but perhaps Ganyana could comment. I am only going on heresay from a couple of PHs I spoke to.

I do know the Parks and indeed the ZPHGA frown upon such behaviour and will take action against operators who are involved . I can certainly say with confidence that the occurrence in Zim is very very limited , whereas the opposite scenario is true in SA

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
I can certainly say with confidence that the occurrence in Zim is very very limited , whereas the opposite scenario is true in SA

I wouldn't disagree with that as a general statement my friend, but of course, the problem is that no-one KNOWS how often it happens because the animals are smuggled and consequently only those that actually get caught, get caught if you know what I mean...... and of course, very few will get caught during the transportation and even fewer will ever get caught out during or after the hunt.

I reckon that article by Andrew McLaren that I posted the link to has hit the nail absolutely on the head.

What you might call an inconvenient truth but the truth nevertheless.

I am reading all of this with much interest.
I totally agree that the South African Lion hunting(shooting?) industry is blemished, and probably beyond repair.
I think its a bit unfair to label that there is no fair chase lion in South Africa.
The concession I use for Lion is indeed the only accredited private game reserve for free range Lion in South Africa. The reserve is over 30 000 acres, but here comes the debate, with fences. So, what constitutes a free range hunt? 35 000 acres is a big area, but if the Lions are self sustaining, does this still make it a canned hunt? Personally, never seen a 35 000 acres can. Must say, with the "free range" tag comes a hefty price tag. If you put a fence around Africa, would all hunting be canned?

I will never endorse canned hunting, whether its for a springhare or Lion and if I feel that the hunt is not conducted in the spirit of fair chase,I dont want anything to do with it. Ethics is what my business is built on and one of the foundations that are non negotiable.
I am looking forward to hearing some reasoning from you guys and feel you need to understand that I am on the fence on this one, no pun intended.
So, the deal is, if you still feel that the concession I use is a form of canned hunting and you can convince me, I will not offer it. Simple as that.

All the best,
Marius Goosen

I don't think it's as clean cut as canned or not and even if it were, everyone is going to have their own criteria and opinions but as I see it, there are no truly wild lion hunts in RSA. There are several places that border parks etc where lions have bred and lived in a relatively wild environment but these animals will be habituated to vehicles and people so they're habituated rather than wild. That doesn't necessarily make them any less dangerous but it does mean they behave differently to truly wild lions....... there's also no guarantee that captive bred ringers can't be bought in. (See the article I posted the link to) - Nor can it be denied that adjacent African countries are not immune to the ringers being introduced. (Again, see the article)

As far as canned hunting as captive bred cats in small pens and (often) doped cats go, it's something I absolutely detest but that's not exactly new, news!

I do however feel very sorry for the people who get taken in by the all too often scams that do happen.... and I don't blame them for being caught in the scam because as I posted earlier, it's often very difficult indeed to spot the tell tail (pardon the pun) signs.

Hi Marius

IMHO, you make a good point when you say the Lion population is self sustaining. I assume you mean it reproduces from within its own numbers and only excess animals are taken off.

I am sure that there are a million and One answers to what is canned and what is not. Each Hunter must make up his or her own mind as to what they consider ethical. For my part, I consider a hunt canned if
1/The animal has been bred and raised specifically for the the purpose of being shot/harvested , with no ambition to further the species .
2/ The animal has been held captive in ,or been translocated to an area which does not offer a reasonable avenue of escape from immediate danger, for the animal.
3/ Any hunt in which the animal has been drugged , doped or otherwise impeded.

Clearly the second point is one which is reliant on the interpretation of the Hunter . It is subjective . I consider an Elephant hunt on a 5ooo acre ranch as canned. On the same ranch a Kudu hunt would not be canned as a Kudu can easily jump a 10 foot fence and will freely move through areas . I am not saying I would hunt that same Kudu, but merely trying to illustrate the differences.

As you say in your post, you will never endorse canned hunts. That effectively means you have a personal opinion as to what constitutes canned. The debate will rage forever from those who feel that any fence anywhere is a canned hunt, to those who feel a 1000ha game farm is fair game. Each person makes their own choices.
It would be great to hear what the common consensus is.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


On another occasion I was asked if I would mind shooting some bulls that have gone wild.

I said I would, but sadly we did not see any.

It would have been more sporting than shooting a "problem" lion.

On another note, Saeed I once hunted some wild Brahman Bulls in the Nuanetsi area in Zim. In 8 days, we shot one, a young bull, yet there were over 50 in the area. Most walking , for least reward I have ever done.

I appreciate I'm probably considered a bit of a radical on this subject, but if I had my way, It'd be completely illegal for anyone to posess, breed or keep any lions whatsoever (anywhere in Africa) with the exception of game dept and zoos...... and that ban would include those bloody silly privately owned rescue centres.

Until that happens, there's always the chance that dodgy dealings can happen.

The facts are clear that lions have been pen-raised and planted into hunting concession within South Africa and other countries such as Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Zambia, Namibia and possible Botswana and Tanzania.

How many lions are taken in Africa? How many do you think are pen-raised?

I suspect that the many lions hunted outside South Africa are actually pen-raised and planted by the outfitters.

What are AR members thoughts?

How can one be sure that you are hunting wild lions?


dale

daleW:

quote:

The facts are clear that lions have been pen-raised and planted into hunting concession within South Africa and other countries.....and Tanzania

Please enlighten us with the proclaimed facts regarding canned lions on hunting concessions in Tanzania.

I guess it's not impossible that the odd one mght have made it from RSA to Tanzania but I'd have thought it's highly unlikely....... but I have no doubt that more than a few have made to at least most of the countries that border RSA.

Let's also not forget that the lion breeding isn't by any means confined to RSA. I've no idea at all what happens to those though.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I guess it's not impossible that the odd one mght have made it from RSA to Tanzania but I'd have thought it's highly unlikely....... but I have no doubt that more than a few have made to at least most of the countries that border RSA.

Let's also not forget that the lion breeding isn't by any means confined to RSA. I've no idea at all what happens to those though.

Illegally:
A few land borders too many and yet many more bribes to pay wouldn't you say? And one hell of a long journey as well - would it arrive in one piece?
Legally:
Only way to get them in safely would be the legal way by direct commercial flight from J'Burg to Dar or private jet......to....?

I would still like to get some feedback from daleW on the "clear facts" he mentions.

My lord, some of you guys have gone goofy!

DaleW - To answer your questions, 1,2,& 3. Just as Saeed stated, False on all three counts! First off, NOT every lion shot in SA is or ever has been pen raised, period!!! I never can figure out what makes people say that??? Secondly, have captive bred lions been released into hunting concessions, possibly, more like probably, but guaranteed, rarely! But unlike Shakari - I work on proof, not fiction, and EXPERIENCE. SHOW ME PROOF. But don't expect it from Shakari, he's afraid of "image theft", whatever the heck that is?? Lastly, I would know in a heartbeat if someone tried getting me to shoot/hunt a pen raised lion, regardless of where we were hunting.

Surely sir, you can lay out the "Clear Facts", that indicate your insinuations about the wide spread problem throughout east & southern Africa, correct??

Shakari - You mention, just look in the magazine ads? Well, please show us?? Show us the guys you think are shooting pen-raised lions, and claiming they are wild?? I'll happily give you my honest opinion, as well others here on AR. Then, once you make said claim, back it up with some facts/proof??

To think this sort of thing happens routinely, is completely false! If folks think so, lets start showing some PROOF, rather than spreading rumors, without any PERSONAL knowledge of said actions. I would venture a guess that I personally have hunted lions more than anyone on AR, save maybe Saeed and some of our resident PH's. Easily over 350 days in the field, actually hunting lion, in 6 different countries, and many different locations throughout these countries. Funny thing is, I have NOT EVER, personally experienced the many insinuated problems with lion hunting, that I hear about on AR regularly?

Below are a few big maned lions, 100% WILD LIONS! If someone thinks big maned lions are not still out there, and taken each year, in the WILD, have a look below!

Zimbabwe


Zambia: I was there, I personally took this picture!


Botswana (Sankuyo)


Zambia


Zambia


Zimbabwe


Zambia - 2010


Zambia - 2009 (My Client)


Zambia - 2009 (Another Client)


Tanzania - DMS


Tanzania - DMS


Tanzania - DMS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
My lord, some of you guys have gone goofy!

DaleW - To answer your questions, 1,2,& 3. Just as Saeed stated, False on all three counts! First off, NOT every lion shot in SA is or ever has been pen raised, period!!! I never can figure out what makes people say that??? Secondly, have captive bred lions been released into hunting concessions, possibly, more like probably, but guaranteed, rarely! But unlike Shakari - I work on proof, not fiction, and EXPERIENCE. SHOW ME PROOF. But don't expect it from Shakari, he's afraid of "image theft", whatever the heck that is?? Lastly, I would know in a heartbeat if someone tried getting me to shoot/hunt a pen raised lion, regardless of where we were hunting.

Surely sir, you can lay out the "Clear Facts", that indicate your insinuations about the wide spread problem throughout east & southern Africa, correct??

Shakari - You mention, just look in the magazine ads? Well, please show us?? Show us the guys you think are shooting pen-raised lions, and claiming they are wild?? I'll happily give you my honest opinion, as well others here on AR. Then, once you make said claim, back it up with some facts/proof??

To think this sort of thing happens routinely, is completely false! If folks think so, lets start showing some PROOF, rather than spreading rumors, without any PERSONAL knowledge of said actions. I would venture a guess that I personally have hunted lions more than anyone on AR, save maybe Saeed and some of our resident PH's. Easily over 350 days in the field, actually hunting lion, in 6 different countries, and many different locations throughout these countries. Funny thing is, I have NOT EVER, personally experienced the many insinuated problems with lion hunting, that I hear about on AR regularly?

Below are a few big maned lions, 100% WILD LIONS! If someone thinks big maned lions are not still out there, and taken each year, in the WILD, have a look below!

/QUOTE]


Fujotupu

Yes mate, I agree. Far too many border crossings and far too many miles to make it very likely.

Aaron,

Pour yourself a relaxitive bwana and then recheck what I said in my posts.

Proof of several dodgy lions can be found right here on AR if you do a bit of searching. Just one of them was a guy telling us that he and some friends had a lion hunt in RSA and it was the most fun anyone could have with his trousers on and his intitial post indicated he was under the impression he'd been hunting wild lions and there have been several others since then. If you want to find them, I suggest you look for yourself because I'm not your bloody secretary.

Proof of magazines that offer captive bred (at least some probably canned) lion hunting? I just leafed through one mag I have here and found no less than six or seven companies advertising such trips. All you have to do, is do the very same thing. Again, I'm not your bloody secretary.

If you want further proof, just look on youtube where you'll find umpteen examples where the lions were so doped up, they didn't know if their arse was drilled or bored.

I certainly don't need to justify myself to you or anyone else and anyone who is interested in me can always go take a look at my websites.

As for image theft and for that matter content theft, if you don't believe it happens on a regular basis, you're very much mistaken. For proof of image theft, just search on any subject you like on Google and then click the image icon on the top left of the screen and you'll find thousands of images there...... and I guarantee that very few (if any) owners of those images have ever been asked for permission for them to appear. I've certainly never been asked by Google etc for permission and I'll bet you or anyone else here ever has either.

If you don't know what image theft is, I suggest you Google the term because you'll find plenty on the net about it and what an ever growing problem it is.

As an example, earlier this year, I sold an image to a rifle magazine for a three figure sum... I can't remember how much, but lets go for the middle figure and say US$500. If that pic was on the net and someone took it without thinking and used it, I'd have lost that money. Multipy that by 50% of the number of pics that someone might post on forums over a year and the figures very quickly begin to add up. - If the image is used for other things, you could easily put at least another zero on those figures.

Even if the AR pages are blocked from the spiders, all it takes is for someone to save the image to their computer and then post it elsewhere and the spiders pick it up.

I learned my lesson about that a long time ago and although I'll never get restitution on my stolen images& content, I do intend to make bloody sure it's as difficult as possible for it to happen any more.

People can view my/our pics on our sites any time they like but they can't right click and save them anymore and that's the way it's gonna stay.

Oh and BTW, I didn't indicate there are no wild lions out there and nor did I indicate I thought you'd ever shot one that wasn't wild either.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
My lord, some of you guys have gone goofy!

DaleW - To answer your questions, 1,2,& 3. Just as Saeed stated, False on all three counts! First off, NOT every lion shot in SA is or ever has been pen raised, period!!! I never can figure out what makes people say that??? Secondly, have captive bred lions been released into hunting concessions, possibly, more like probably, but guaranteed, rarely! But unlike Shakari - I work on proof, not fiction, and EXPERIENCE. SHOW ME PROOF. But don't expect it from Shakari, he's afraid of "image theft", whatever the heck that is?? Lastly, I would know in a heartbeat if someone tried getting me to shoot/hunt a pen raised lion, regardless of where we were hunting.

Surely sir, you can lay out the "Clear Facts", that indicate your insinuations about the wide spread problem throughout east & southern Africa, correct??

Shakari - You mention, just look in the magazine ads? Well, please show us?? Show us the guys you think are shooting pen-raised lions, and claiming they are wild?? I'll happily give you my honest opinion, as well others here on AR. Then, once you make said claim, back it up with some facts/proof??

To think this sort of thing happens routinely, is completely false! If folks think so, lets start showing some PROOF, rather than spreading rumors, without any PERSONAL knowledge of said actions. I would venture a guess that I personally have hunted lions more than anyone on AR, save maybe Saeed and some of our resident PH's. Easily over 350 days in the field, actually hunting lion, in 6 different countries, and many different locations throughout these countries. Funny thing is, I have NOT EVER, personally experienced the many insinuated problems with lion hunting, that I hear about on AR regularly?

Below are a few big maned lions, 100% WILD LIONS! If someone thinks big maned lions are not still out there, and taken each year, in the WILD, have a look below!

/QUOTE]


Fujotupu

Yes mate, I agree. Far too many border crossings and far too many miles to make it very likely.

Aaron,

Proof of several dodgy lions can be found right here on AR if you do a bit of searching. Just one of them was a guy telling us that he and some friends had a lion hunt in RSA and it was the most fun anyone could have with his trousers on and his intitial post indicated he was under the impression he'd been hunting wild lions and there have been several others since then. If you want to find them, I suggest you look for yourself because I'm not your bloody secretary.

Proof of magazines that offer captive bred (at least some probably canned) lion hunting? I just leafed through one mag I have here and found no less than six or seven companies advertising such trips. All you have to do, is do the very same thing. Again, I'm not your bloody secretary.

If you want further proof, just look on youtube where you'll find umpteen examples where the lions were so doped up, they didn't know if their arse was drilled or bored.

Steve - "Proof of several dodgy lion hunts can be found right here on AR, please show me the PROOF"??? Show me? Not a link to some thread where guys are "claiming" it might not be legit, I want the proof of the illegal/immoral actions???

"Proof of magazines ads that offer captive bred lion hunts." Oh, now we're playing the Shakari word games again? You insinuated that ads from operators offering WILD lion hunts, were in fact, shooting raised lions!!! Of course there are ads for high-fence lion hunts, but show me the ones you claim are shooting raised lions, claiming they are WILD lions, smuggled into or from another country, etc, etc,??

"If you want further proof, just look on youtube where you'll find umpteen examples where the lions were so doped up, they didn't know if their arse was drilled or bored." Yes, quite likely true! But show me the proof that these guys are claiming these are WILD lions, or these lions are smuggled into other countries, etc?? All they show is some dude shooting a high-fence/raised lion!!! No one disputes that goes on in SA.

Just show me PROOF, of all this lion/leopard/DG hunting experience you have throughout Africa to back up said claims. And the proof/personal experience you have to back up claims about all this DODGY lion hunting going on throughout southern Africa? Lions being transported across country lines, lions raised in other countries and released to be hunted as "Wild" lions, fooling the client, etc, etc. I'm certain no one will steel your pics on AR, and you can of course, put your logo on them to ensure it!

Aaron,

All I can do is refer you to my previous post and again suggest you try actually reading and comprehending my posts.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Aaron,

All I can do is refer you to my previous post and again suggest you try actually reading and comprehending my posts.

Yep, I should learn to comprehend better!! What I do comprehend is, folks like "DaleW" and others have unfortunately been given a false sense of things, as it pertains to lions & lion hunting throughout Africa. He's convinced that pen raised/canned lions are routinely shot in Zim, Moz, Zambia & TZ, when nothing could be further from the truth. And how you ask, have many on AR come to believe these falsehoods? Guys like you Shakari, giving info, and spreading rumors, without any evidence/proof or EXPERIENCE with such activities. If you have it, show us?? And why, what purpose does this serve?

Secondly, I think you are a good-hearted guy who honestly believes he's helping "inform" the hunting industry. However, I feel like you are personally doing a HUGE dis-service to the hunting industry, your fellow PH's, fellow hunters, lion hunting, and the conservation of the African Lion. I've repeatedly seen you warn members on AR about what they post, as "others", are definitely watching, and I agree. So, how about heeding some of your own advice?

Many wonderful PH's on AR, and guys like Wendell Reich, Mark Young, Dave Fulson, David Keith, Greg Brownlee, etc, etc, all work hard to promote legal, ethical, and honest, "Wild" lion hunts throughout the African continent. Yet, they find it harder and harder to convince the un-knowing client about their legit practices, based on un-substantiated rumors, spread throughout the internet/hunting industry, all so some can appear to be the "go-to" guys for info.

Folks, I will guarantee you this. 99% of all lions shot outside of SA, are truly wild, completely free-ranging lions, period! I leave 1%, because anything is possible, and likely someone has tried it already. But to think that the majority or even a decent percentage of lions shot outside of SA are pen raised lions, is simply foolish. To insinuate such claim, is simply irresponsible!

Aaron,

Where did I say (in your words) "that pen raised/canned lions are routinely shot in Zim, Moz, Zambia & TZ"?

If you'd taken the trouble to read and comprehend my posts, you'd see that I said some (note the word some) pen raised lions are smuggled across the borders. I didn't say all, I didn't say routinely and I didn't say Tanzania either....... in fact, I pointed out (in agreement with Fujo) that Tanzania would be highy unlikly if only because of distance and number of borders.

Nor did I say that (again in your words) "a decent percentage of lions shot outside of SA are pen raised lions"

What I did say is that I have no doubt that some have made their way from RSA to the countries that border RSA...... and I gave one example of one that had found it's way to Zimbabwe.

Again, if you'd taken the trouble to read and comprehend my posts, you'd find that I haven't ever suggested it happens routinely or often....... Just that it does happen.

Oh, and I also pointed out that there are also several lion breeding operations outside of RSA.... What they do with those ones I have no idea.

If you're going to get your knickers in a twist about anything to do with this issue, you should be doing it about the blokes who do it, not about me telling the truth about it happening.

I'm sure you're far too shrewd to believe these things never do or never have happened.

ADDED

Issues such as this are nothing new and if you'd care to read the book 'Killers in Africa. - The truth about animals lying in wait and hunters lying in print' by Alexander Lake that was written in about the 60s, you'll find that dubious lion practices were happening even then.

I don't remember if he addresses actual captive breeding or not but he does mention dubious lion practices generally.