quote:

I remember on Boddington for Buffalo II Berry Duckworth is quoted. “You might get your first two shots off before me, but when the 3rd and 4th shot comes, that is where this (his 458 WM) has counted.”

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
. . . when things do go south, it is THE FIRST SHOT that counts.

Once that has happened, all hell breaks loose and no one knows where it ends.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, I don't remember predicting the outcome or criticizing the methods on a buff hunt other than stating my opinion that the client breaking down the bolt action each night is not required, and in this case, evidently contributed significantly to getting himself killed when it failed to fire.

As to the PH and outcome predictions, I simply responded to a guy here on AR with ZERO DG experience proclaiming that if the PH had had a bolt rifle instead of a double, he could have put a 3rd round into the beast and kept him down. Again, I'm not predicting anything but rather expressing my opinion from the description of the follow up that's been posted here, that if the PH got hit after shot 2 from his double and the rifle was knocked from his hands, he would likely not have been able to get a third shot off. Maybe he could have, but it doesn't sound like it.

The client telling the PH he can't shoot during a wounded buffalo follow up certainly doesn't seem to have been the best course of action.

Back when I was a professional pilot, the aviation safety guys always identified links in the chain of events that could have prevented a mishap. In my opinion, the PH having a DR vs Bolt rifle is a non starter. Plenty of dangerous game animals are taken with both types and no incidents. On the other hand, the client's gun not being functional after cleaning and insisting the PH not shoot during follow up of a wounded buff are a couple of chain links that stand out like a sore thumb to me.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
A tragic event for all concerned. I can't get to grips with what happened with the clients gun. Presuming the gun that failed on the follow up was the same gun the client used to take the shot that wounded the buffalo, therefore the gun did fire at least one shot 'since' the client stripped it down to clean the night before. I cannot see that any Mauser type bolt, whatever the brand, would fire any shot if it was not assembled correctly; the firing pin obviously cocked and was held by the trigger sear until the first round was fired to wound the buffalo in the first place.
If the cocking piece was not correctly screwed or pinned to the bolt it is difficult to imagine that the bolt could be inserted into the rifle, feed a round into the chamber, lock, cock and fire.

Maybe the rifle was a straight pull variety of some sort?

quote:

Originally posted by DCS Member:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
A tragic event for all concerned. I can't get to grips with what happened with the clients gun. Presuming the gun that failed on the follow up was the same gun the client used to take the shot that wounded the buffalo, therefore the gun did fire at least one shot 'since' the client stripped it down to clean the night before. I cannot see that any Mauser type bolt, whatever the brand, would fire any shot if it was not assembled correctly; the firing pin obviously cocked and was held by the trigger sear until the first round was fired to wound the buffalo in the first place.
If the cocking piece was not correctly screwed or pinned to the bolt it is difficult to imagine that the bolt could be inserted into the rifle, feed a round into the chamber, lock, cock and fire.

Maybe the rifle was a straight pull variety of some sort?

Eagle, I had the same question about the client’s rifle. It apparently did seem to work at some point during this altercation. It is not clear if the wounding and the incident occurred on the same day.

In all, it was a sad affair for all involved.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


My understanding is it all happened the same day.

So the rifle malfunction is a big surprise??

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, I don't remember predicting the outcome or criticizing the methods on a buff hunt other than stating my opinion that the client breaking down the bolt action each night is not required, and in this case, evidently contributed significantly to getting himself killed when it failed to fire.

As to the PH and outcome predictions, I simply responded to a guy here on AR with ZERO DG experience proclaiming that if the PH had had a bolt rifle instead of a double, he could have put a 3rd round into the beast and kept him down. Again, I'm not predicting anything but rather expressing my opinion from the description of the follow up that's been posted here, that if the PH got hit after shot 2 from his double and the rifle was knocked from his hands, he would likely not have been able to get a third shot off. Maybe he could have, but it doesn't sound like it.

The client telling the PH he can't shoot during a wounded buffalo follow up certainly doesn't seem to have been the best course of action.

Back when I was a professional pilot, the aviation safety guys always identified links in the chain of events that could have prevented a mishap. In my opinion, the PH having a DR vs Bolt rifle is a non starter. Plenty of dangerous game animals are taken with both types and no incidents. On the other hand, the client's gun not being functional after cleaning and insisting the PH not shoot during follow up of a wounded buff are a couple of chain links that stand out like a sore thumb to me.

Todd-

You misunderstood my post. You and I are in agreement on this. Maybe my post was poorly worded.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saeed:


My understanding is it all happened the same day.

So the rifle malfunction is a big surprise??[/

QUOTE]The shroud and firing pin were laying on the ground beside the client, the rifle untouched by the buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Steve, I don't remember predicting the outcome or criticizing the methods on a buff hunt other than stating my opinion that the client breaking down the bolt action each night is not required, and in this case, evidently contributed significantly to getting himself killed when it failed to fire.

As to the PH and outcome predictions, I simply responded to a guy here on AR with ZERO DG experience proclaiming that if the PH had had a bolt rifle instead of a double, he could have put a 3rd round into the beast and kept him down. Again, I'm not predicting anything but rather expressing my opinion from the description of the follow up that's been posted here, that if the PH got hit after shot 2 from his double and the rifle was knocked from his hands, he would likely not have been able to get a third shot off. Maybe he could have, but it doesn't sound like it.

The client telling the PH he can't shoot during a wounded buffalo follow up certainly doesn't seem to have been the best course of action.

Back when I was a professional pilot, the aviation safety guys always identified links in the chain of events that could have prevented a mishap. In my opinion, the PH having a DR vs Bolt rifle is a non starter. Plenty of dangerous game animals are taken with both types and no incidents. On the other hand, the client's gun not being functional after cleaning and insisting the PH not shoot during follow up of a wounded buff are a couple of chain links that stand out like a sore thumb to me.

Todd-

You misunderstood my post. You and I are in agreement on this. Maybe my post was poorly worded.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is only a guess!

The client cleaned his rifle the night before, as suggested by.

He might not have put it together properly.

Only explanation I can see from what we have read.

The rifle fired one shot, it seems, causing the buffalo to be wounded.

Something happened between then and the attempt at firing it again.

When he dropped it after being hit by the buffalo, the bolt came apart??

This is why it would be interesting to know what make the rifle was.

quote:

I agree with you . However, given a personal experience I wonder . I had a firing pin break in New Zealand once. Could that have happened?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This is only a guess!

The client cleaned his rifle the night before, as suggested by.

He might not have put it together properly.

Only explanation I can see from what we have read.

The rifle fired one shot, it seems, causing the buffalo to be wounded.

Something happened between then and the attempt at firing it again.

When he dropped it after being hit by the buffalo, the bolt came apart??

This is why it would be interesting to know what make the rifle was.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

I agree with you . However, given a personal experience I wonder . I had a firing pin break in New Zealand once. Could that have happened?

There has been an official statement
declaring that the shroud and pin pertaining to the client's rifle and I quote :

"were found lying next to the client on the ground".

Something just does not add up.

Yes, a firing pin (tip) can break, though very rare. but for the whole assembly to come apart from the bolt housing is something else.

Stripping a gun for cleaning is not uncommon, in fact it is what is to be expected after a day in the field but this procedure does not include a complete dissection of the bolt because NOT ALL bolts are as simple to take down and reassemble.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
No DG experience.

The rifle was probably a straight pull design. Just an intuitive guess.

I cannot visualise a Mauser, CZ, Winchester etc. rifle unscrewing the bolt head after 1 shot

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I get many people coming here to shoot with their rifles.

Most of them are European made.

Some are so complicated one needs a PH in stupidity to be able to just take the bolt out!

In fact, I have one that makes this impossible unless the stock is taken off!

Now please enlighten me what sort of genius designed a rifle like this??

Sako and Tikka are the only ones I see who still design decent rifles that actually WORK.

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
They are mostly all good, people just don’t practice enough handling and shooting

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
The PH got in a couple of shots and they were not fatal. No doubt it happened quickly and he did the best he could. We were not there and the rest is conjecture.

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
This is what happens when you let the Buffalo decide how it wants to die.

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Originally posted by lavaca:
A very sad case for sure and we'll never know what happened for sure. Excessive cleaning seems unlikely unless the bolt was disassembled, but I can't imagine why anyone would do that on safari unless the rifle was dunked. I seldom clean during a hunt, although I have done routine cleaning if I shot a lot, or in places where it was dusty, or if I was hunting in the rains.

Someone suggested the hunter may have short stroked after the first shot. That seems to be a more plausible explanation. I did it once but fortunately with no adverse consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
This thread seems to have died a natural death as no further snippets of information have trickled in regarding the PH and his welfare and/or more light being shed on how that action dis-assembled itself, etc.

The whole episode raged briefly and burnt itself out like a Curtis bush fire.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
This thread seems to have died a natural death as no further snippets of information have trickled in regarding the PH and his welfare and/or more light being shed on how that action dis-assembled itself, etc.

The whole episode raged briefly and burnt itself out like a Curtis bush fire.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
Good news is that Trappe is back hunting now!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
A very sad case for sure and we'll never know what happened for sure. Excessive cleaning seems unlikely unless the bolt was disassembled, but I can't imagine why anyone would do that on safari unless the rifle was dunked. I seldom clean during a hunt, although I have done routine cleaning if I shot a lot, or in places where it was dusty, or if I was hunting in the rains.

Someone suggested the hunter may have short stroked after the first shot. That seems to be a more plausible explanation. I did it once but fortunately with no adverse consequences.

The only cleaning I do is a bore snake every evening. When in CAR, the humidity had me wiping with a silicone cloth as well.