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| One of Us |
Well, seems all we have proven is that you prefer name calling to discussing.... | |||
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| Administrator |
I have learned a long time ago discussing happened between intelligent people. Trying to reasons with idiots is a waste of time! You two have removed any doubts of how stupid you both are on the Crooked Cory thread! And just adding icing on the cake on this thread too! | |||
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| One of Us |
And your narcisistic traits continue to show forth... Disagree with you and we are "stupid". Yes, that make sense, I think... | |||
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| Administrator |
It is not a matter disagreeing at all. It is you two refusing to call a spade a spade! It is like you two are calling driven snow BLACK! And coal is pure WHITE! And your never ending putting the blame of idiots like yourselves faults on AR, and you both are still here! | |||
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| One of Us |
at least they are providing some kind of fun ... | |||
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| Administrator |
Any news to clarify the confusion in this sad saga? What we have heard so far does not make sense at all. | |||
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| One of Us |
Larry Shores just got back from their and time with Christian. I suspect he has the truth. | |||
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| One of Us |
10:1 has it that the incident has been covered with a slab of reinforced concrete. | |||
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| Administrator |
Bits and pieces are coming out. Not much makes sense! Why they don’t come out with the truth I have no idea! | |||
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| One of Us |
The original statement was the Professional Hunter waited for the client to finish the Buffalo off and that didn’t go as planned, it doesn’t sound too good to let the client get killed when possibly the PH could have diffused the situation earlier and didn’t. | |||
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| One of Us |
Against my better judgment, I am going to relay what I learned. The client died instantly with a broken neck. I have seen a picture of the gun as it laid on the ground . Not a mark on it . The gun was a Sako chambered in a weird caliber . 350 Sako. When the client went to cycle the rifle , the entire bolt came out of the gun and came apart . I have seen a picture of the bolt as it lay in the ground in pieces. This all happened from 12 steps . The PH put 2 shots into the charging buff’s head with a 470. Missed the brain . All involved think the client disassembling the rifle nightly was the problem. | |||
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| One of Us |
1. Photo evidence notwithstanding, how does a bolt come out of the action if not by depressing the appropriate release button or trigger while cycling the bolt? 2. The firing pin assembly does not simply come adrift once the bolt is removed; there are set procedures involved in unlocking the firing pin assembly which vary between the different models of firearms. The client had obviously already fired at least ONE shot for the buffalo to be wounded which they were tracking until the fateful charge; the alleged impact from the buffalo cannot open a closed bolt, let alone dislodge it from the action as we are to assume that a round had been chambered while in the tracking process. Finally may we, the peanut gallery, know the model of the firearm and type of action? P.S. the 350 Whelan is plenty enough for a buff though unsure of Uganda's caliber restrictions on DG but that would be water under the bridge at this stage. | |||
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| Administrator |
Thank you Larry. The rifle is a Sako. For the bolt to fall apart, and the firing pin to come out of the bolt, one has to unscrew the shroud. If for any reason, the shroud is slightly loose, the rifle will misfire. Not from what we have heard the rifle did fire, hence causing the wounding of the buffalo. To go from firing, to the bolt coming out completely and dislodging the firing p9n from it….?? Requires an extraordinary job of misassembley! I have used Sako rifles for many years. They are one of my favorites . | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks, Larry. All consistent with the first report regarding the rifle. Truly bizarre. At least there was no prolonged suffering on the hunter’s part. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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| One of Us |
370 Sako (9.3x66) perhaps? | |||
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| One of Us |
I have owned and shot many Sako’s, all pre Garcia vintage. I have messed up the disassembly a couple of times. I have gripped the rifle and depressed the bolt release as well. I can see how this could happened. As to caliber - never heard of it. | |||
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One of Us |
Ross - I have a Sako .375, which is my main “non-DG rifle. I had a spring in The bolt break in Zambia. The bolt stuck closed, empty in chamber. I had one hell of a time getting it to open, to remove the spent case to. Get the rifle home. Had a gunsmith repair it, built a new spring. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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| One of Us |
Thank you Larry: Thats a whole lot more than we've been able to learn with 4 pages of bs so far. Maybe I did well by selling my 7mmag Sako Finnbear last year. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually the BS is what we have continuously been fed but some of us ain't buying it: "To go from firing, to the bolt coming out completely and dislodging the firing p9n from it….??"  | |||
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| One of Us |
Like I said, against my better judgment. Believe what you want to believe . I conveyed what I was told and/or saw . If you want more , contact UWS . I doubt they will even respond . Personally, I can understand a bolt coming out as it has happened to me before. Not under these circumstances but it did happen to me. I don’t pretend to know why the bolt came apart . I doubt anyone can say with 100% certainty unless an engineer has inspected everything. Carry on gentlemen. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thank you Larry. A voice of sweet reason in the desert. | |||
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| Administrator |
Exactly! All Larry did was report what he was told to be THE TRUTH! | |||
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| One of Us |
Been following this for a bit. We may never know exactly what happened with the rifle or the guy handing it. But one thing it does for me is it reinforces my habit of assuring my PH when hunting DG that if he feels the need to shoot do not hesitate. Wounded pride will heal, dead, not likely. Keep in mind there are most likely other people in the vicinity as well. In close quarters animals dead on their feet have killed people. | |||
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| Administrator |
I have ALWAYS told my PH he is free to shoot anytime he feels like it. Silly pride has no place in hunting dangerous game. But, I draw the line when it come to some silly PHs who shoot as soon as the clients fires! Totally unnecessary. In the present case, only questions were raised when the company involved decided not to tell the truth, but publish false information. And individuals involved were not happy questions were asked! | |||
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| One of Us |
I am bored flying back from Uganda. I decided to read this entire thread again. I see no reason for the vitriol that has arisen. I see very little difference between the statement by UWS and what Tim posted . It seems to me that the difference is entirely whether the client was on sticks or not. That is certainly a difference but not a contributing factor in opinion . I see nothing to cause anyone to conclude that this statement was a total fabrication. I do not get the animosity. I do not get some of the entitled questions. My personal favorite is one that indicates that in spite of many requests, the make of the gun has not been divulged. Are you kidding me? Requested of whom? Who has the responsibility to divulge this information? Like many , I am also puzzled by why the bolt came apart. We can debate the matter herein until the end of time . We will never know more than we know now unless there is an investigation by experts. Even then, we will not know unless the results are made public. This is not likely to happen absent litigation. I have thought of a couple of possibilities that could have contributed to this sad event. Emphasis on possibilities. What if the client failed to reload after the first shot? What if the client short stroked the rifle after the first shot? Both of these could be cause for the client to not have fired a second shot. He could have tried to cycle the bolt and the bolt came out . As I said in a prior post , this has happened to me (once) but under vastly different circumstances. Just a thought . Certainly not facts. Carry on gentlemen. | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually, Larry, you did answer the major questions I had as to the accident that were not clear from the somewhat different reports. What kind of trauma- broken neck- Not really a lot of first aid that can be taught for a dislocated neck fracture. The gun issue is a bit different. That some have had their bolt come out unintentionally with a similar rifle says that there may have been something wrong there- whether it was the rifle is designed such that it can happen a bit too easily, or that under stress it can happen. That reminds me that I need to spend some time with my DG rifle before a hunt making sure I have my weapon handling down. Frankly, a bolt that comes apart and has the firing pin laying separate has "some" design issue- Remember the Ross rifle? That think killed and injured Canadian servicemen due to a functional, but bad design- but a bolt action rifle should not have the bolt come apart just by taking it out of the action. I agree that UWS and Tim do not "owe" anyone coming on and clarifying things, but it is simple politeness to answer questions that are reasonable follow ons from something you made report of. What is not reasonable is to state that "I'm not going to answer these questions and I should never have brought it here!" Sorry, you did, and its not a defense to say I shouldn't have after the fact. UWS and the government made statements back in Uganda, and they were not things that were brought here by them- the valid way of having a question answered of them was what you did- see them in person and ask what happened- usually news reporters do that (remember, these were press releases), if they have enough knowledge to know what to ask. Tim came here and tried to answer some of it, but unwittingly his typed response was rather different in detail (if not overall- remember, he was the last of the 3 versions reported) and he got rather offended by the tone of questions, but probably would not have been offended if he had been asked in person about details that he may well have had to say "I don't know" or "that's not what I was told." The only real annoyance I got was folks saying that asking questions is inappropriate. I get that different people tell different views of it- trying to sort out what happens in an accident as to mechanism of injury when the patient is unconscious is often contradictory and wrong- we have all seen it, if not quite that seriously. The vitriol of individuals attacking others here I don't know why that happens. | |||
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| One of Us |
What's the case number of this here trial where people are supposed to offer a defense? 
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One of Us |
I heard about Sako bolt coming out while the person shooting and killed that person In SA in this particular case I got rid of my Sako years back because after two or three shots I could not pull the bolt out, had to literally put on the ground and hit it with palm of my hands to pull it open Never been lost, just confused here and there for month or two | |||
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| One of Us |
It isn't a criminal case, for god's sake... but if you start a conversation, you are looking like an idiot when you say "forget I said anything!"
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One of Us |
Were you using reloads when your bolt got stuck? I have a few rifles with tight chambers that with not release brass that hasent been properly resized. Input the rifle butt on the ground and force it open with the heel of my boot. Never had a bolt come out or apart even while using extreme force DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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| Administrator |
A very sad hunting accident happened. Resulting in the death of the hunter, and wounding the PH. Members want to know why this has happened, hopefully to avoid future repeats. The company involved issued a statement, which fell far from the truth. Questions were asked, and certain individuals got their knickers in the twist as to WHY do we wish to know the truth! What Larry reported what was told to him, which sounds more to the truth than was previously posted. Why the company did not post this at the beginning is anyone's guess! And booking agents are very happy to post their reports of hunts that have gone well, to drum up more business. But get upset when one of their hunts go south, and questions are asked! | |||
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One of Us |
. . . should have stuck with your instincts. Mike | |||
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One of Us |
Thanks Larry for sharing what you have learnt and seen in regards this unfortunate incident. I don't know why you need to qualify your post with "against my better judgement". Yes others who posted some information were castigated here because they also wanted to shut down any further "dissection" of the incident on this forum. The information you have relayed does at least provide some logical answers to just what actually transpired on that fateful run in with the buffalo in terms of the chain of events. How the clients Sako rifle apparently fired once then failed when the bolt was cycled will remain a mystery for the time being. Thanks again for being willing to ask questions and share with the forum.  | |||
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| Administrator |
Larry post answered many questions. And he is nothing to answer for. If there is one thing that seems to stick out from this, is the clients habit of taking his rifle apart every day?? I have been hunting Africa for over 40 years, been in drenching rain, and have NEVER, EVER, taking my bolt apart on safari! Come to think of it, I have NEVER taken my bolt apart EVER on my hunting rifles! | |||
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| One of Us |
Since when has accurate information been a bad thing? Based on my experience with my Sako AV .375 H&H Mag., I can’t see how it would fail like this. As I have said, truly bizarre. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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| One of Us |
I had hoped to get the picture of the bolt pieces on the ground . I was trying to not be pushy about it. Unfortunately, the PH became seriously ill with a serious form of malaria . I abandoned the idea given his condition. | |||
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| One of Us |
I can confirm Larry's version as relayed to me by a different Professional Hunter. In fact I went to the sight where this occurred. Mr. Shores version is accurate. The cause of death was fractured neck and the charge was instigated by the click of a misfiring or dissembling rifle. Lets not forget that Minni Trappe was lucky to have escaped with his life. After being gored by the buffalo he got up crawled to his DR and finished the buffalo off. I have seen the pictures. Jeff | |||
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| One of Us |
It may have required several photos actually as I would guess each of the pieces would not have been found lying alongside each other.  | |||
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| One Of Us |
I have heard from gunsmiths that the older named Sako, like FINNBEAR, VIXEN, etc., may be better rifles, as evidenced by pricing of some 439 presently listed on Guns International, newer numbered rifles are much lower in price. Very sad accident!! Dangerous Game hunting is DANGEROUS, more so if you have equipment failure... regardless of how??!! Even the fine German made Colt Sauers are known to have bolts come out on firing and hitting the shooter in the face!! I sold mine in 458WinMag!! I prefer pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters... 470EDDY | |||
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| One of Us |
Tried all kind of factory ammo over the years Sold it cheap with warning that’s what is doing Never heard from that guy again Never been lost, just confused here and there for month or two | |||
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