quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The lesson from this thread . . . no good deed goes unpunished. Is it any wonder that so many contributing posters here have just said, f*#k it, it ain’t worth the aggravation. If I was Christian, Charl, Mini or Tim, I would not make single post here . . . all that does is embolden the folks here that spend their entire day picking fly shit out of pepper.

As if the Cory Crook thread wasn't enough, you are proving, beyond a shadow of a doubt, how ighnorant you are about hunting.

An accident happened.

And by the looks of things it could have been avoided if the client rifle worked.

Some of us here would like to know the truth.

The company posts an explanation.

A booking agent did not like that answer.

And basically tells the rest of us to not ask awkward questions.

Then THE IDIOTS BRIGADE blames all this on AR!

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Well said Russell. This is the reason I have hardly participated on AR the past couple of years. Asking a PH who doesn’t come on AR to come here to clarify for a bunch of people he doesn’t know seems ridiculous. I honestly wish I had never commented. Was just trying to share what I was told on the scene and of course it escalates into a shit storm of conjecture.

Tim that is not the truth and you have posted Uganda group hunt films which can be only construed as free advertising. Sure you do not comment on common subjects but do not dish AR when it has done you well.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Herald:
Well said Russell. This is the reason I have hardly participated on AR the past couple of years. Asking a PH who doesn’t come on AR to come here to clarify for a bunch of people he doesn’t know seems ridiculous. I honestly wish I had never commented. Was just trying to share what I was told on the scene and of course it escalates into a shit storm of conjecture.

Tim that is not the truth and you have posted Uganda group hunt films which can be only construed as free advertising. Sure you do not comment on common subjects but do not dish AR when it has done you well.

HYPOCRISY in its raw form!

So bwanamrm (Russell) and Tim Herald have decided no-one needs to dissect any thing or learn the true story of this tragic event. They also make it clear for everyone that they are a little miffed over this discussion and it is this sort of reason that they at least, or maybe anyone according to Russell, bothers wasting time on AR anymore.

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

It seems all Tim and Russell can do is complain about how AR operates so they get pissed off and don't want to participate anymore and on top of that, think the discussion on the accident should be shut down.

Lets reword it Russell, "the hubris" from you two is astonishing.

.

quote:

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

WTF? Is that how you see it - Mini's fault that the client died ? Mini's watch ? So the answer is Mini is to blame ? Next thing is a lawsuit for negligence!

For fear of being thrown in with the IDIOT BRIGADE as Saeed terms some of the long time members of this FREE and we can all speak forum, everyone is sitting on a couch trying to analyse an event that happened thousands of miles away and where the facts are all over the place - a guy cleans his rifle daily and thats wrong, the rifle was in pieces when the tracker picked it up after the event, thats wrong - maby the tracker broke it ?! Mini is to blame it was his watch !?! Tim is now a liar and will likely follow Buzz out the door and get tarred and feathered for months afterwards by the members here.

It was so much easier when Saeed just beat up on Cal RIP and Sullivan. I miss the old days!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.

quote:

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

WTF? Is that how you see it - Mini's fault that the client died ? Mini's watch ? So the answer is Mini is to blame ? Next thing is a lawsuit for negligence!

For fear of being thrown in with the IDIOT BRIGADE as Saeed terms some of the long time members of this FREE and we can all speak forum, everyone is sitting on a couch trying to analyse an event that happened thousands of miles away and where the facts are all over the place - a guy cleans his rifle daily and thats wrong, the rifle was in pieces when the tracker picked it up after the event, thats wrong - maby the tracker broke it ?! Mini is to blame it was his watch !?! Tim is now a liar and will likely follow Buzz out the door and get tarred and feathered for months afterwards by the members here.

It was so much easier when Saeed just beat up on Cal RIP and Sullivan. I miss the old days!

.

That is not the way I understand he meant it.

An accident happened, the PH was Mini, he did not do anything wrong.

So far from what have seen it boils down to a rifle malfunction!

But, according to some here, we should not be asking any more questions.

Well, at least the client didn’t shoot his professional hunter.

Some individuals shouldn’t be booking hunts, or hunting!

And they have the audacity to tell others what they shouldn’t ask on an open forum.

A bunch of short sighted nincompoops!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The lesson from this thread . . . no good deed goes unpunished. Is it any wonder that so many contributing posters here have just said, f*#k it, it ain’t worth the aggravation. If I was Christian, Charl, Mini or Tim, I would not make single post here . . . all that does is embolden the folks here that spend their entire day picking fly shit out of pepper.

Well, seems the messenger is getting ripped up, again here. No surprise.
Facts are hard to get, but it appears Tim and Christian made a great effort to report this, then they get picked apart.

If you want to know the brand of rifle, call Christian. He is on WhatsApp.

The brand is somewhat important but more important is how/why if fell apart. Was it hit by the buff? Was it stepped on? I have had misfire in a Mauser when I did not eject a spent round, then closed the bolt. I have had one on a Blaser when I did not close the bolt completely. Pure operator error on my part.

Cleaning the gun every night? Excessive but at least he knew how to put it together. You cannot wear out an action by taking it down and reassembling many times.

To the bigger issue - be a porch monkey all you want on this, does no good. Tim and many others here have made mistakes on hunts and owned them. Yet some here like to throw stones. That does no good.

Or as Saeed has so articulately stated - maybe I am too stupid to understand the facts….

While I think it might be beneficial to know what happened with the gun, no one has any obligation to come on AR and explain. The facts may or may not be beneficial.

I will be seeing Christian before too long . If I find out anything new, I will share it here.

I do have one theory . Theory as opposed to fact . Apparently the client was getting up there in age . He had a habit of cleaning the rifle every night . This was his routine. My personal observation is that elderly people often have a major problem with any changes to their routine. Is that what happened here? Only one person knows and he surely will not be addressing it here .

Carry on gentlemen.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The lesson from this thread . . . no good deed goes unpunished. Is it any wonder that so many contributing posters here have just said, f*#k it, it ain’t worth the aggravation. If I was Christian, Charl, Mini or Tim, I would not make single post here . . . all that does is embolden the folks here that spend their entire day picking fly shit out of pepper.

Well, seems the messenger is getting ripped up, again here. No surprise.
Facts are hard to get, but it appears Tim and Christian made a great effort to report this, then they get picked apart.

If you want to know the brand of rifle, call Christian. He is on WhatsApp.

The brand is somewhat important but more important is how/why if fell apart. Was it hit by the buff? Was it stepped on? I have had misfire in a Mauser when I did not eject a spent round, then closed the bolt. I have had one on a Blaser when I did not close the bolt completely. Pure operator error on my part.

Cleaning the gun every night? Excessive but at least he knew how to put it together. You cannot wear out an action by taking it down and reassembling many times.

To the bigger issue - be a porch monkey all you want on this, does no good. Tim and many others here have made mistakes on hunts and owned them. Yet some here like to throw stones. That does no good.

Or as Saeed has so articulately stated - maybe I am too stupid to understand the facts….

Einstein has spoken!

End of story!

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.

quote:

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

WTF? Is that how you see it - Mini's fault that the client died ? Mini's watch ? So the answer is Mini is to blame ? Next thing is a lawsuit for negligence!

For fear of being thrown in with the IDIOT BRIGADE as Saeed terms some of the long time members of this FREE and we can all speak forum, everyone is sitting on a couch trying to analyse an event that happened thousands of miles away and where the facts are all over the place - a guy cleans his rifle daily and thats wrong, the rifle was in pieces when the tracker picked it up after the event, thats wrong - maby the tracker broke it ?! Mini is to blame it was his watch !?! Tim is now a liar and will likely follow Buzz out the door and get tarred and feathered for months afterwards by the members here.

It was so much easier when Saeed just beat up on Cal RIP and Sullivan. I miss the old days!

.

You obviously do not know the meaning of 'being on someone's watch'.

It does not lay blame but does put you in the spotlight. I said in an earlier post that it seems from the info we did have that Mini did all he could to extricate his party from the deadly situation they ended up in, actually putting his own life on the line doing it. Lets face it if this accident had happen in Tim and Russell's country the lawyers would have been all over it with multi law suits underway and Mini would be foremost in their sights as it happened on his watch.

Tim started off providing what information he had directly from Mini but then when points were made that there seemed to be confusion and inconsistencies between what Mini relayed to Tim and the 'official' reports, Tim then said that this subject doesn't need to be dissected and then railed on AR members for ruining AR forums, the reason he doesn't post on here much anymore.
Russell then chimed in supporting Tim and espousing the same bitchy anti AR line.

The question all anyone has asked here, without laying blame, is what the hell did happened. Did the clients rifle fail or not, if so what happened to it and why. Is there anything can we learn from it. Pretty simple sort of queries without the need for a couple of posters to get all snotty over.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
So bwanamrm (Russell) and Tim Herald have decided no-one needs to dissect any thing or learn the true story of this tragic event. They also make it clear for everyone that they are a little miffed over this discussion and it is this sort of reason that they at least, or maybe anyone according to Russell, bothers wasting time on AR anymore.

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

It seems all Tim and Russell can do is complain about how AR operates so they get pissed off and don't want to participate anymore and on top of that, think the discussion on the accident should be shut down.

Lets reword it Russell, "the hubris" from you two is astonishing.

Agree with some of your text but remember shit happens fast. I have put down charges and it is a PH nightmare and at ten yards more so. I've been there and was surprised I survived. In these situations, the client, his rifle, and gun care were sort of irrelevant.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
So bwanamrm (Russell) and Tim Herald have decided no-one needs to dissect any thing or learn the true story of this tragic event. They also make it clear for everyone that they are a little miffed over this discussion and it is this sort of reason that they at least, or maybe anyone according to Russell, bothers wasting time on AR anymore.

Well, well, lets be brutal and honest, A CLIENT LOST HIS LIFE ON MINI'S WATCH, he came to Africa to follow a dream and was sent home in a body bag.

It seems all Tim and Russell can do is complain about how AR operates so they get pissed off and don't want to participate anymore and on top of that, think the discussion on the accident should be shut down.

Lets reword it Russell, "the hubris" from you two is astonishing.

Agree with some of your text but remember shit happens fast. I have put down charges and it is a PH nightmare and at ten yards more so. I've been there and was surprised I survived. In these situations, the client, his rifle, and gun care were sort of irrelevant.

I totally agree Andrew, shit can happen fast and like most on here including myself, we will have all experienced situations where shit has happened but this is quite different and no excuse from saying shit happens lets just accept it and get on with it.
Irrespective of whether Mini's client was in some way to blame for his own misfortune or someone else in the party made mistakes, no-one wants to see someone lose their life and others get seriously injured. With true facts of just what happened there are so many members here with vast experience in the hunting and firearms field that we could all benefit from their input on how these sorts of accidents can be avoided or minimised.

To just accept shit happens, turn a blind eye and try to shut down discussion is shameful.

I do not want to diminish the sad result in this incident.

A man died and that is what is on everyone's mind.

But as Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts."

Yet "just the facts" seem oddly hard to come by in this incident.

What I find especially odd, and remarkable, is that some who should damned well know better are arguing against simply finding and stating them.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I do not want to diminish the sad result in this incident.

A man died and that is what is on everyone's mind.

But as Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts."

Yet "just the facts" seem oddly hard to come by in this incident.

What I find especially odd, and remarkable, is that some who should damned well know better are arguing against simply finding and stating them.

When someone does not wants the facts to come out, normally they know something that is not very pleasant and wish to hide it!

Very odd to say the least…

Maybe there is not much else besides what came out as a facts

So how many incidents happened in last ten years for an example where everyone came out alive and in just a split of a second could have been the other way around

At time we are like a bunch of old Women bickering about nothing and gossiping about everyone

I hear a lot of people sounding like plaintiff's lawyers. No personal responsibility.

I go hunting, I take risks, I assume the risk.

Rifle malfunctions, whose fault --- probably the operator, but maybe the manufacturer.

What if it had worked? Would the client have made the second shot? He botched the first one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not critical, I've done it. I'm just saying that if I botch the first shot, what happens next is my fault and I just hope noone gets hurt, especially noone other than me.

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Maybe there is not much else besides what came out as a facts

So how many insiders happened in last ten years for an example where everyone came out alive and in just a split of a second could have been the other way around

At time we are like a bunch of old Women bickering about nothing and gossiping about everyone

Point is there has not been any FACTS!

Original report by the company, which we assumed to be FACTS.

Has been reported as not true at all.

By someone who wishes we should stop asking questions??

How stupid can that be?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
While I think it might be beneficial to know what happened with the gun, no one has any obligation to come on AR and explain. The facts may or may not be beneficial.

I will be seeing Christian before too long . If I find out anything new, I will share it here.

I do have one theory . Theory as opposed to fact . Apparently the client was getting up there in age . He had a habit of cleaning the rifle every night . This was his routine. My personal observation is that elderly people often have a major problem with any changes to their routine. Is that what happened here? Only one person knows and he surely will not be addressing it here .

Carry on gentlemen.

Any updates yet Larry?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
While I think it might be beneficial to know what happened with the gun, no one has any obligation to come on AR and explain. The facts may or may not be beneficial.

I will be seeing Christian before too long . If I find out anything new, I will share it here.

I do have one theory . Theory as opposed to fact . Apparently the client was getting up there in age . He had a habit of cleaning the rifle every night . This was his routine. My personal observation is that elderly people often have a major problem with any changes to their routine. Is that what happened here? Only one person knows and he surely will not be addressing it here .

Carry on gentlemen.

Any updates yet Larry?

You are slow learner!

We have certain members here, probably with vested interest, to make sure we do NOT hear the truth!

I don't think Larry has been there yet.

When he does, he will will tell us the truth!

quote:

We have certain members here, probably with vested interest, to make sure we do NOT hear the truth!

It is doubtful that Larry will ever get to know the facts either.

The facts will eventually come out!

I have a sneaky feeling someone is hiding something!

As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Probably one of the most stupid posts here.

Even by your standards.

A forum is for discussion.

And learning from others experiences.

I bet you are not half as ignorant as when you first started reading here!

In spite of the numerous requests, no information was ever disclosed on the make of the rifle.

Is it remotely possible that the gun maker got wind of the accident and has threatened legal action if technical data to the detriment of the make is made public?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Probably one of the most stupid posts here.

Even by your standards.

A forum is for discussion.

And learning from others experiences.

I bet you are not half as ignorant as when you first started reading here!

. . . so says the head kvetcher.

Tell me Einstein.

Why are YOU participating here then??

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
In spite of the numerous requests, no information was ever disclosed on the make of the rifle.

Is it remotely possible that the gun maker got wind of the accident and has threatened legal action if technical data to the detriment of
the make is made public?

The first thing I thought of when information was hidden was that legal action was taken

There should be no legal action. You sign on for the ride, you assume the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
There should be no legal action. You sign on for the ride, you assume the risk.

Weapon failure/malfunction ?

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
There should be no legal action. You sign on for the ride, you assume the risk.

Weapon failure/malfunction ?

I think you hit the nail on the head!

May why the booking agent doesn’t want us to look any further!

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Mike I find your comments here rather astounding coming from someone who has clocked up 22460 posts on this forum. You must be one of the most prolific posters on the forum and yet you seem to be joining the couple of others on here suggesting the this discussion is not worthy of any further posts and in some way implying it should be shut down.
Let others decide for themselves what they get out of information posted on AR or is it do as I say not as I do?

I'm sure Larry can decide for himself whether he obtains and posts any information he can garner about the unfortunate incident. He has said that if he finds out anything new he will share it here.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Mike I find your comments here rather astounding coming from someone who has clocked up 22460 posts on this forum. You must be one of the most prolific posters on the forum and yet you seem to be joining the couple of others on here suggesting the this discussion is not worthy of any further posts and in some way implying it should be shut down.
Let others decide for themselves what they get out of information posted on AR or is it do as I say not as I do?

I'm sure Larry can decide for himself whether he obtains and posts any information he can garner about the unfortunate incident. He has said that if he finds out anything new he will share it here.

AS I said before, I will be seeing Christian in the near future. If I learn anything new and useful, I will post that information hee.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Mike I find your comments here rather astounding coming from someone who has clocked up 22460 posts on this forum. You must be one of the most prolific posters on the forum and yet you seem to be joining the couple of others on here suggesting the this discussion is not worthy of any further posts and in some way implying it should be shut down.
Let others decide for themselves what they get out of information posted on AR or is it do as I say not as I do?

I'm sure Larry can decide for himself whether he obtains and posts any information he can garner about the unfortunate incident. He has said that if he finds out anything new he will share it here.

As I said before, I will be seeing Christian in the near future. If I learn anything new and useful, I will post that information here.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Probably one of the most stupid posts here.

Even by your standards.

A forum is for discussion.

And learning from others experiences.

I bet you are not half as ignorant as when you first started reading here!

Mike - don't feel bad, Saeed called me stupid and worse and I only have been 21 years with 10,000 posts. I am unlearning things quickly apparantly, being as how I am "too stupid" to understand bankruptcy laws, who is lying and who is not and that sort of thing....
Oh well, hang around here long enough and some will decide you are just too stupid tolearn anything at all...

Fulvio,

The problem I see with a products liability case against the rifle manufacturer is that the hunter chose to disassemble his bolt every day. No one would think that was reasonable. Did he put it back together right? Had he had a cocktail or three when he did? In other words, did the rifle fail because of the design, the manufacturing process, or the operator?

Next problem even if plaintiff could prove a defect in the rifle is causation. Would it have made a difference if the rifle had functioned perfectly? A lot of guys have been bashed with perfectly functional rifles. Mini got hit with a perfectly functional rifle.

And to add on to that, the client botched the first shot, would it have made a difference if he'd got off a second?

I used to do product liability litigation. Sounds to me like the deceased and his family have a whole lot of problems to make a products liability case.

Oh well, hang around here long enough and some will decide you are just too stupid tolearn anything at all.


The pair of you have proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt!

. . . ah, the head kvetcher awakens.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
As this thread and so many others here indicate, nothing good ever comes of posting information here. I am sure Larry appreciates that.

Mike I find your comments here rather astounding coming from someone who has clocked up 22460 posts on this forum. You must be one of the most prolific posters on the forum and yet you seem to be joining the couple of others on here suggesting the this discussion is not worthy of any further posts and in some way implying it should be shut down.
Let others decide for themselves what they get out of information posted on AR or is it do as I say not as I do?

I'm sure Larry can decide for himself whether he obtains and posts any information he can garner about the unfortunate incident. He has said that if he finds out anything new he will share it here.

AS I said before, I will be seeing Christian in the near future. If I learn anything new and useful, I will post that information hee.

Thank you Larry, all I ever asked in my first post on this discussion was what could have gone wrong with the clients rifle. As you yourself said in your earlier post "It would be very interesting to know the facts on the rifle . Did it malfunction? Was it reassembled improperly after cleaning?"

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Fulvio,

I used to do product liability litigation. Sounds to me like the deceased and his family have a whole lot of problems to make a products liability case.

IMO the manufacturer wants to remain anonymous as this incident could be counter-productive to future sales of the product and to avoid the possibility of a lawsuit.

Taking a rifle action apart on a daily basis is not necessarily a reason for it to come apart in the field as some of these mechanisms are straightforward while others can be fidgety and not everyone is technically minded to go about it alone but the late Mr. Cox seemed pretty knowledgeable.

Mini got his 2 shots off (ineffective) so no blame on the rifle nor the ammunition; just a question of unfortunately badly placed shots in the heat of the moment.

Mr. Cox was unable to get a 2nd shot due to the mishap and even if he had, we would never know if it would have been effective or not; maybe yes and maybe no.

The argument here is why basic information is being shrouded in secrecy and not aiming to blame anyone in particular for the tragic outcome.