quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am not questioning whether you did or did not have a bad experience in Namibia. What I do find curious is how show season seems to bring forward folks that have axes to grind with outfitters. Why do folks that purport to be motivated by a desire to prevent others from having a negative experience seem content to wait until the shows to raise the issue? If the hunt was in October or November, why not post the details on your return? Even in the post today, there are no details. A cynic might believe that the motivation is more akin to retribution or leverage given the timing.

Again, I am not suggesting that you did not have a negative experience. If that was the case, I feel your pain. I had a negative experience this past year in Namibia myself with another outfitter. Just seems to me that when someone comes forward months or years after something is said to have happened you have to wonder what motivated the delay in coming forward.

Mike,

Who cares about the timing and motivation??? The bottom line is,…if this happened as written, it needs be out in forums like this. I applaud Chris for coming forward. It is not an easy thing to do. Most hunters in this situation do not come forward for fear of embarrassment or abuse. I harbor no such fears. If this sort of thing were ever to happen to me, I’d post the story prior to every hunting show for the next 5 years!!!! You will not have to guess at my motivations.

Times are getting pretty desperate for some outfits, and it seems to me this sort of thing is becoming a little more common. Unfortunately, not all outfitters have the ethics of Buzz Charlton.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am not questioning whether you did or did not have a bad experience in Namibia. What I do find curious is how show season seems to bring forward folks that have axes to grind with outfitters. Why do folks that purport to be motivated by a desire to prevent others from having a negative experience seem content to wait until the shows to raise the issue? If the hunt was in October or November, why not post the details on your return? Even in the post today, there are no details. A cynic might believe that the motivation is more akin to retribution or leverage given the timing.

Again, I am not suggesting that you did not have a negative experience. If that was the case, I feel your pain. I had a negative experience this past year in Namibia myself with another outfitter. Just seems to me that when someone comes forward months or years after something is said to have happened you have to wonder what motivated the delay in coming forward.

I guess I missed the hunt report with the above mentioned negative experience in Namibia. Can someone post a link?

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I am not questioning whether you did or did not have a bad experience in Namibia. What I do find curious is how show season seems to bring forward folks that have axes to grind with outfitters. Why do folks that purport to be motivated by a desire to prevent others from having a negative experience seem content to wait until the shows to raise the issue? If the hunt was in October or November, why not post the details on your return? Even in the post today, there are no details. A cynic might believe that the motivation is more akin to retribution or leverage given the timing.

Again, I am not suggesting that you did not have a negative experience. If that was the case, I feel your pain. I had a negative experience this past year in Namibia myself with another outfitter. Just seems to me that when someone comes forward months or years after something is said to have happened you have to wonder what motivated the delay in coming forward.

I guess I missed the hunt report with the above mentioned negative experience in Namibia. Can someone post a link?

Yeah as someone that hunts quite a bit in Namibia, that would be nice to see.

I took the apparently novel approach of addressing the issue directly with the outfitter.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I took the apparently novel approach of addressing the issue directly with the outfitter.

Then why on earth did you even make mention of it?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I took the apparently novel approach of addressing the issue directly with the outfitter.

Then why on earth did you even make mention of it?

Exactly!!

Because I long for your sympathy and understanding?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Because I long for your sympathy and understanding?

Well, since you put it like that. . .OK

Folks,
Many of you know me and some don't, there are bound to be some gripes along the line, some of which I know about, others not, unfortunately despite giving my best efforts as an operator, sometimes bad reports arise, some justifiable, others not.

A lot of what Chris has said is true and we tried to resolve it immediately poor to and during the hunt.
There are a lot of missing pieces in Chris's accusation of which I have documentation to prove.
A couple of small facts.
1. I was never going to PH then hunt, I was going to accompany the hunt, that I got denied entry into Namibia based on the immigration officials presumption that I was going to work was a nightmare, same occurred to Dalton and the 2 cameramen on the way into Namibia.
2. After the hunt, Chris and I discussed some reimbursing, of which we agreed on a figure, but prior to me sending it, he decided a personal attack against me would be better.
3. His brother Mike shot his elephant, and then refused to pay the trophy fee quoted, so I put him straight onto the outfitter to make payment to import his tusks ( my fee was higher perhaps that is one reason ).

Not to justify anything, however, I was sold one area and given another ( paperwork to prove it ).

I would like to go into more detail, however the documents were handed over to my attorney after Chris decided to attack me publicly and at my booth without knowing ALL the details.
I apologise to him as I did many times and had hoped we could have worked it out.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:

Not to justify anything, however, I was sold one area and given another ( paperwork to prove it ).

Cheers

But why did that become Chris' problem?? Paperwork??? It doesn't sound like the "paperwork" was worth the paper it was written on.

You should have your attorney on whoever sold you the elephant, not the hunter.

Trying to correct a cluster is the best that anyone could expect in a situation like this.

But trying to work in Namibia without the proper permits is a no go. That should have been apparent.

"Not to justify anything, however, I was sold one area and given another ( paperwork to prove it )."

Who in Namibia did that?

Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

. . . I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

. . . I agree.

I don't agree. In my humble opinion, this is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be out on the internet. It is very unsavory, but there are large sums of money and big blocks of personal time at play. We are not talking about a $3,000 deer hunt. The elephant hunts around Bwabwata NP are not cheap endeavors. If I dumped $50K on a hunt like this, I would not be happy. If Martin is out selling a late season elephant hunt in Namibia, are you going to be in a hurry to jump on the deal??

By the way I honestly did not see a great of substance in Martin's "Paperwork" reply. The hunter should have been notified before getting on the plane....actually much earlier than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

. . . I agree.

I don't agree. In my humble opinion, this is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be out on the internet. It is very unsavory, but there are large sums of money and big blocks of personal time at play.

. . . and besides everyone loves gawking at a good train wreck.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

. . . I agree.

I don't agree. In my humble opinion, this is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be out on the internet. It is very unsavory, but there are large sums of money and big blocks of personal time at play. We are not talking about a $3,000 deer hunt. The elephant hunts around Bwabwata NP are not cheap endeavors. If I dumped $50K on a hunt like this, I would not be happy. If Martin is out selling a late season elephant hunt in Namibia, are you going to be in a hurry to jump on the deal??

By the way I honestly did not see a great of substance in Martin's "Paperwork" reply. The hunter should have been notified before getting on the plane....actually much earlier than that.

TBD,

These are the sort of things a reputable booking agent will wave you off from or tell you what really happened. They have your best interest in mind and will not allow a valued client to get on a plane heading into a disaster.

I've stated more than once, those that limit their booking universe to the outfitters here on AR are missing out on a huge resource. There are obviously some good operators here, but there are many other good ones as well that have never even heard of AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:
Just my opinion here. I do today and have always thought Safari hunting to be a sport for gentlemen.

That said, There is obviously three sides to this, Martins, the Clients and the truth. I really wish this could have been resolved in private. This is very un-becoming of not only individual people but it doesn't say much for how we handle conflict resolution in our sport.

If negotiating in private didn't work, confrontation at a show didn't work, why would anyone choose the inter web to try to resolve this, unless your intent is damaging the other party?

I really don't care about what happened. I just think this isn't the venue to resolve anything.

Steve

. . . I agree.

I don't agree. In my humble opinion, this is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be out on the internet. It is very unsavory, but there are large sums of money and big blocks of personal time at play. We are not talking about a $3,000 deer hunt. The elephant hunts around Bwabwata NP are not cheap endeavors. If I dumped $50K on a hunt like this, I would not be happy. If Martin is out selling a late season elephant hunt in Namibia, are you going to be in a hurry to jump on the deal??

By the way I honestly did not see a great of substance in Martin's "Paperwork" reply. The hunter should have been notified before getting on the plane....actually much earlier than that.

TBD,

These are the sort of things a reputable booking agent will wave you off from or tell you what really happened. They have your best interest in mind and will not allow a valued client to get on a plane heading into a disaster.

I've stated more than once, those that limit their booking universe to the outfitters here on AR are missing out on a huge resource. There are obviously some good operators here, but there are many other good ones as well that have never even heard of AR.

Steve,

I agree 100%. I'm living that uncertainty pain a bit right now. I've done most of my hunting (9 trips) in Namibia, Bots and Zim, and know quality operators in all three countries. However, I'm looking for a leopard/buff hunt in Zambia, for my son and I. I've never been to Zambia and don't know squat about Zambia. It sounds really nice. I've been asking a lot of questions everywhere, and plan to use a booking agent for this hunt. With the cost of the hunts, you really have to do your due diligence.

This thread is pretty eye opening for me. I don't think 3-4 safaris makes one an expert on dealing with the peculiarities of african hunting business. It may give one the false security of knowing stuff but a little knowledge can often be much more dangerous.

I think if someone did one safari and then decided they were going to spend a lot of very expensive after tax discretionary dollars on international hunting. Their research focus should be on finding the right booking agent - a buyers agent - not a sellers agent. Someone to find the right hunt but more importantly hold monies till the hunts meet expectations in the hunt contracts.

Mike

Mr. Pieters was the president of the ZPHA (or some similar acronym), recently? Haven't other complaints been directed to that association? If so, I would hope a prior hunter of Mr. Pieters, such as the OP, would feel safe booking again. I would also think such such a professional hunter would know how to get visas, even despite who would actually conduct such an expensive hunt.

This is a cautionary tail of horse trading going bad. Too many people involved between the client and ele and too little coordination and common sense. Hard to blame any one person but maybe everyone involved shares the blame.

And thankfully for the Interwebs, this sort of situation is detailed in its entire ugly truth so that clients and PHs alike will ask the difficult questions and will share the whole truth respectively.

I don't see why the cooperation of two or three outfitters needs to turn into a disaster.Imagine what a great experience can be had if you and your PH hunted a new area successfully.If there are screw ups then chances are that is the nature of the people you are dealing with.

Chris,
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I for one have learned much from this thread. I have had a similar situation where I booked one thing and another took place but mine turned out fine. Im sorry yours didn't.

Like it or not the Internet is where the vast majority of hunters go to research their future hunts. Just like when you want to try a new steak house the first thing most people do is grab their phone and look at reviews online....so it's more than appropriate that a dissatisfied client comes to a forum like this to air his grievances. If AR is a good place for positive reviews and hunt offers then it's damn sure just as good for negative reports. They are far more useful IMO...after all, when you are considering booking aren't you scanning for problems to save yourself headaches?

If nothing negative was ever posted about an outfitter why would you use a place like AR to research a potential hunt? You would know before you started looking that all you'll find is positive reviews.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
This is a cautionary tail of horse trading going bad. Too many people involved between the client and ele and too little coordination and common sense. Hard to blame any one person but maybe everyone involved shares the blame.

And thankfully for the Interwebs, this sort of situation is detailed in its entire ugly truth so that clients and PHs alike will ask the difficult questions and will share the whole truth respectively.

Everybody buy the client hopefully.

For someone spending 6 figures post tax dollars on a vacation this kind of outcome is unacceptable.

Mike

It looks like that both the client and Martin were taken for a ride.

And I agree with those who said we are glad the client posted it here.

Where are we going to learn of how hunts turn out if people did not post their experience, good or bad?

And unlike other websites, AR's only interest in this, is to see this sort of thing does not happen again.

And one way of doing that is to air the problems that have occurred, and hopefully get them avoided in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
This is a cautionary tail of horse trading going bad. Too many people involved between the client and ele and too little coordination and common sense. Hard to blame any one person but maybe everyone involved shares the blame.

And thankfully for the Interwebs, this sort of situation is detailed in its entire ugly truth so that clients and PHs alike will ask the difficult questions and will share the whole truth respectively.

Everybody buy the client hopefully.

For someone spending 6 figures post tax dollars on a vacation this kind of outcome is unacceptable.

Mike

One hopes that all hunts go smoothly, but especially when so much $$$$ is on the line. Eles don't grow on trees nor do clients that can afford to harvest one.

If Martin was taken for a ride why take the client along with him? Let's just call it what it is....

I could go into Martin's response in great detail (e.g., he wasn't planning to operate the hunt BUT requested Mike and I "bring backup guns since he had trouble getting them through Botswana", etc.) , but I guess we can do that with the 'lawyers'. Simply read his response . . . not too difficult to see the issue.

I had discussed a refund from Martin in November and - as of the first week of January, nothing. But what triggered this post was 1) how he was treating my brother with respect to the trophy fee and 2) how he was dealing the with the concession holder. Obviously, at that point, we were not interested in sending Martin any more money.

But this is not about the money - and I told Martin as much before posting this, but rather about trying to keep this industry on the level. And frankly, that goes for those who hunt and don't pay their trophy fees to the outfitter. Ethics cuts both ways.

HOWEVER . . . As I've said, I have hunted in Martin's Omay area twice and had good hunts. In 2015 I hunted with Pierre Hundermark and had a fantastic hunt. I would hunt with Pierre again. So, I think rather than saying that one should never hunt with Martin, I think it best to 1) manage the risks by working with a booking agent, 2) make sure deposits are managed properly (and that goes for trophy fees as well), and make sure you have a well-documented plan about the safaris and what to expect.

The outfitter is the figurehead, but there are good people working for him or her, so it is difficult to communicate issues that may impact them. Problems arise on hunts, things can get frustrating and discouraging, animals and weather don't cooperate, airlines screw up but the controllable things should never be in doubt.

Chris

Everyone can draw their own conclusions from the evidence presented thus far.
However the crux of the issue is that the client paid for a 2 x 2 hunt in a certain area and was provided with a 2 x 1 hunt in a different area. He was only informed once his boots were on the ground in Africa. This is not on and it would seem a substantial refund is in order.

It would appear that the refund was never paid as the client was upset and made a personal attack on the outfitter. Does this make it right that the refund was never paid?

I'm glad I was not the client.

JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It looks like that both the client and Martin were taken for a ride.

And I agree with those who said we are glad the client posted it here.

Where are we going to learn of how hunts turn out if people did not post their experience, good or bad?

And unlike other websites, AR's only interest in this, is to see this sort of thing does not happen again.

And one way of doing that is to air the problems that have occurred, and hopefully get them avoided in the future.

Saeed,
on its face, I can't argue with this. But, It now comes down to what are Chris' motives? I see no possibility of a refund. So at this point all I can surmise is retribution.

Posted on AR as a negative, speaks volumes.

If it was your hunt that went this way would you just eat it and remain silent?

If so, I have a few hunts to sell you...

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
If it was your hunt that went this way would you just eat it and remain silent?

If so, I have a few hunts to sell you...

Yup, because I had one and I didn't see the need to impugn the guy. HOWEVER. . .if I see it advertised again here in the discounted hunt forum, I'll be sure to give any unsuspecting AR members a heads up.

I ate shit, learned and moved the hell on.

This ordeal MUST BE TOLD or how are hunters ever to avoid the same mistake?! The internet and this forum in particular are the PERFECT place to post it. On a very expensive hunt with previous "good clients" what was promised what not even close to delivered. You have spared me the trouble of a similar situation. Thank you for making everyone aware.

quote:

Originally posted by 1BigDeer:
This ordeal MUST BE TOLD or how are hunters ever to avoid the same mistake?! The internet and this forum in particular are the PERFECT place to post it. On a very expensive hunt with previous "good clients" what was promised what not even close to delivered. You have spared me the trouble of a similar situation. Thank you for making everyone aware.

Meaning; Martin Pieters is to be avoided?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by 1BigDeer:
This ordeal MUST BE TOLD or how are hunters ever to avoid the same mistake?! The internet and this forum in particular are the PERFECT place to post it. On a very expensive hunt with previous "good clients" what was promised what not even close to delivered. You have spared me the trouble of a similar situation. Thank you for making everyone aware.

Meaning; Martin Pieters is to be avoided?

If you feel differently let us know when your check for a Caprivi elephant hunt is in the mail to Martin

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by 1BigDeer:
This ordeal MUST BE TOLD or how are hunters ever to avoid the same mistake?! The internet and this forum in particular are the PERFECT place to post it. On a very expensive hunt with previous "good clients" what was promised what not even close to delivered. You have spared me the trouble of a similar situation. Thank you for making everyone aware.

Meaning; Martin Pieters is to be avoided?

If you feel differently let us know when your check for a Caprivi elephant hunt is in the mail to Martin

I think you're missing my point. Refund? nope. Not gonna happen, re-hunt? probably not. SO, confrontation at show? unproductive. What's left?

Revenge.

Actually, a negative report like this can turn positive for the outfitter if he deals with it right.

He said he has all the paperwork to prove that he was taken for a ride, and what was delivered was not what was agreed on.

If anyone has nothing to hide, telling the truth is the only way.

Steve Ahrenberg,

I have no other motivation other than to make people aware of this problem. I said this to Martin in an email last week as I explained my motivations for publicizing our hunt to him.

Posting this exposed me and Mike to attacks, questions about our judgement and knowledge (rightfully so, I'm afraid), and stirring the ire of Martin's long-time supporters. Some outfitters may view us as 'problem clients' and not want to book with us. So, not something I take lightly, to be sure. But perhaps other hunters will be more thoughtful about due diligence or using a booking agent to mitigate risks.

Since this post, I've received many PMs asking about Martin's outfit and have given good, positive feedback on the experience I have had and have in NO WAY discouraged people from booking with him. As I said, I had good experiences with his team in the Omay and would hunt with some of his PHs again. I think my brother would say the same thing.

While we can afford (by God's grace) to participate in this kind of hunt and I NEVER take for granted that this is a gift, a true gift to that we are able follow elephants and hunt Africa. But what if I was a retiree who spent a large amount of "less-discretionary" funds on his or her dream hunt to have this happen? A horrifying prospect, and I think we have a responsibility to minimize this sort of thing. And, I think outfitters have the right to call out clients who aren't ethical as well to protect other outfitters form potential harm. Checks and balances.

At this point, I harbor no ill-will toward Martin and, after doing what I feel was the right thing to do, will move on an explore other hunts in Africa and beyond.

Best,

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It looks like that both the client and Martin were taken for a ride.

And I agree with those who said we are glad the client posted it here.

Where are we going to learn of how hunts turn out if people did not post their experience, good or bad?

And unlike other websites, AR's only interest in this, is to see this sort of thing does not happen again.

And one way of doing that is to air the problems that have occurred, and hopefully get them avoided in the future.

Saeed,
on its face, I can't argue with this. But, It now comes down to what are Chris' motives? I see no possibility of a refund. So at this point all I can surmise is retribution.

Posted on AR as a negative, speaks volumes.

I don't know either one of these guys. But Chris' motives are irrelevant at this point. He was asked to lay out the details and did. I saw nothing in Martin's response that gave me the warm and fuzzies. Sounds like Martin agreed to a refund of some portion - it should be sent.