I would be quite happy to pay the new TZ trophy fees to shoot either one of those buffalo; at the same time, I would be quite happy to pay the price of a lottery ticket if thought I had a real good chance of winning. However, I don't buy lottery tickets, and I don't know that I am going to pay the new TZ trophy fees either.

Great trophy. I certainly did not see anything like that in Zim last month. It is most certainly a shooter. Congratulations!

I would not shoot it. It’s too big for my house.

The irony of this whole post is not the trophy but where it was shot. How many of you plan on going to TZ and have deposits down for next year? How many were thinking about it but are no longer and will book elsewhere? The reality is that you could save for TZ, go over and possibly find this bull's brother and then get hit afterwards with more fees than you can (or would) handle.

My opinion only, and I don't know a damned thing more than anyone else here...I think that by next year all of this business will be sorted out and finalized. What the rates will be on day 1 of the season is what they will be at end of season. What's happening this year won't be an ongoing dilemna. I don't recall this happening before, at least not in the 15 years I have been going there, helping friends organize a trip or doing it for myself.

I hope you're right John because I would really like to see TZ for about 7-10 days to do 1-2 buff, Thompsons, and Grants. I would love to get a Gerenuk but I don't see myself ever doing a 21 day hunt...just too high for me.

Lots of strong opinions by many expeienced, and some not so experienced, African hunters. There is no question that Bwanamich has shot a very very nice bull; he deserves congratulations.
What makes a trophy attractive to a hunter varies from person to person. Some would like an animal that scores high in SCI; others might want to take an old bull with hard bosses, past breeding age.
It is a little surprising that there is so much disagreement between us re cow vs bull, mature vs immature. The distincton between mature bull and cow is usually not too difficult; the cows horns appear to grow from the side of the head, and even mature cows will have hair on their forehead between the horns
Here is a cow

(From Doktari's book, Africa's most dangerous")

With regard to bulls, it is well accepted that they develop a full, hard boss at about 10 years of age; older bulls are generally past breeding. Such dugga boys have broomed off the tips of their horns, and dont score as well in SCI, but have massive bosses.
Younger bulls will have soft bosses and THE TIPS OF THE HORNS LIE ABOVE THE BOSSES. In old bulls with fully matured, hard bosses the horn tips lie at or below the level of the bosses.
Here are some immature bulls about 6-7 years of age
[IMG]
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa33/505gibbs/0058Ad...937906-443.jpg[/IMG]

From Doktari's book:



Here is a fully mature bull, with hard bosses, and HORN TIPS BROOMED OFF TO LIE BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE BOSSES


So, a hunter may elect to shoot
a breeding 8 year old bull with great horn spread, while another may prefer to shoot an old gentleman past breeding age who doesnt necessarily score well in SCI. Both are right, except that we can all imagine the consequences of consistently shooting the best horned breeding bulls over many generations.

Heres my preference: 17" bosses, only 38" spread, estimated age 13-14 yrs



BUT I am still looking for the best of both worlds: an old bull with great spread and broomed horn tips, as below


Bwanamich, as to who else may not want to shoot a great breeding bull, I would like to hear from our old Africa hands on AR: John Harland and Pierre VD Walt come to mind. Doktari's views are already in print! But congratulations on a great buffalo!

quote:

Younger bulls will have soft bosses and THE TIPS OF THE HORNS LIE ABOVE THE BOSSES. In old bulls with fully matured, hard bosses the horn tips lie at or below the level of the bosses.

Despite my limited experience, I do not buy that as a hard and fast rule. Even I have seen fully matured bulls with hard bosses where the horn tips are even or above the level of the bosses.

Good guideline, but I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.

Cheers,
Canuck

ps: FWIW, if I had to script my perfect buffalo hunt and perfect buffalo, it would not include the one that is the subject of this thread. But, would I shoot it if I had the opportunity...DAMN SKIPPY I WOULD! Its a great, great bull. Turning it down would be like turning down a free ranging 390" bull elk, just because you didn't quite like the formation of the horns. Or turning down a date with Sandra Bullock because you really had your heart set on Eva Longoria.

This is exactly like the post on the maybe new #1 SCI impala yes it doesnt look nice but If you were hunting and the PH tells you that could be the new #1 or top 10 and it was basically mature enough would you not shoot it just because it doesnt look nice.

Common guys you are fooling yourselfs you would be paying the same price anyway if it just qualifies for the book or to have it as a top 10, or as the average trophy.

In the end of the day we should all be very happy that a bull like that as been shot which means that they are still out there, same as the big impala and 100 pound elephants. When is the last time that in a two week period we get to see monsters shot of 3 different species ? Has it happened before on AR ? So someone somewhere is doing something right managing the game and we have to take our hats off to these indivuduals.

These hunters had the time of their lifes dont spoil it for them. And congrats to them all who could be so lucky.

I like your point about the big impala, elephant and this buff being taken within the same few weeks and all from different countries. Pretty amazing as we continue to worry about rising fees and closing quotas.

While this buffalo is far below my lofty standards, I would shoot it without hesitation, but only to insure that the gene pool was not infected with the genetic code that produced such a paltry set of horns.

Are you kidding? No doubt about it. Done. Gone. Bye bye bovine. Hell, if it were me, I'd probably never leave the skinning shed. I'd buy it a first class seat back to the USA. And if that didn't work, I'd have the PH nail me into the shipping crate with it for the trip back.

And a heartfelt congratulations to the hunter and the PH. That is an amazing animal.

I have seen lots of buffalo that were hard bossed, had the tips worn down some and still have them above the boss. I can look at one of like this any day I want because it's mounted in my trophy room. He was big, old and full of fight when I came upon him and he made lots of memories for me. Buffalo come in all shapes and sizes, both young and old. You have to look at the whole package before deciding.

Folks,

Lon Paul sent this to me this AM. It would seem the buff is even bigger than Mich thought.

From: willem.dolleman@tgts.com
> To: tanglewoodguns@hotmail.com
> Subject: Andy Payne
> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 04:40:51 -0400
>
> Hi Lon
> Here a photo from Andy Payne,
> a stunning 56 inch buffalo from the Moyowosi
> flood plains with Andy’s 404.
> Andy Says thanks for the rifle, and will
> get hold of you when he is back in town.
> Cheers
>
> Fish Eagle Camp
>
> Moyowosi
>
> TGTS
>

My Mother !! what a buffalo

I would love to see a pic of the skull already cleaned.

L

Even bigger...how does this rank in the books? I like this photo better without the hunters in it. The rifle gives a good perspective.

Probably most of the confusion comes from the cow that was found dead in Kenya last year bearing a very close resembalance to this bull..She had all the same attributes it seems.

Apparantly about everyone would have shot this bull, but can you imagine what this bull would look like in a few more years! I would like to have aged this bull, I would guess him by his bosses at about 5 or 6 years old, but its hard to age one from a picture.

As good as he is, he is not the type of bull I like, he is steer like with those flat horns and no drop..Personally I like that drop below the jaw and coming back up and over with bosses so old and rubbed they are like marble and shine like a new penny..Just my opinion however.

Ray,

Would you seriously pass on this buff? I'm no buff hunter, but to put it into my ballpark it would be like passing on 34-38" mulie because it might be better in a few years

Yeah sure. I can appreciate the logic but holy crap man this is the trophy of a lifetime.

If you can pass on this type of game my hats off to you. For most of us it will be sling lead and get 'er done.

John

Ray,
I don't have your experience but for me you fell a couple of years short.

But anyway, I still want to se a pic of the bleached(sp?)skull.

L

Anyone who would take a classic iron sighted 404 into an open area and kill a buff like that has "the right stuff"..

If this bull is 56" then I wonder what the bull pictured n the cover of the latest issue of African Hunter measures. He may be wider than this one. Zim can grow big buff! Any guesses on the width of the AH bull?

465H&H

Damn what a bull... and a fine rifle to boot! Tell you what, if I had the .404, as nice as it is, I'd trade it for a shot at that bull! In a minute...

That is an amazingly wide buff. Congratulations to the lucky hunter.

Jeff

I never said I would pass on this bull, I would not not pass on him, and like I said before that I wish I had the where to fore to pass on him and let him reach more maturity..But I'm not that generous. I still contend he is a fairly young bull and what a bull he would be in 3 or 4 more years..

Lorenzo,
A bull will get his full spread, length, or whatever you want to call it by the time he is three years old maybe a little longer dependent on nutrician (weather, range condition etc?) then he grows and matures in the bosses only, and based on those bosses which are NOT totally hard on this bull IMO, he has a ways to go. He would have grown more boss and increased in size and shape as the soft stuff on the frontal part of the boss hardens and a larger mass forms, then time and rubbing will wear the bosses and the tips down, and if he lives long enough, which they don't under todays hunting pressure and the Lions, his bosses will be like polished marble, very close together and the gap will be filled with dirt that has set up like cement giving some the impression they have grown together, but they have not and that stuff will boil away in processing..

I wish African governments would put a horn specification on all buffalo so that none could be shot before full maturity of the bosses, as so many of them are shot too soon, and the hunter brings home the bragging rights on bulls that have a lot of spread but no maturity, but they are happy as a pig in s--t. I have seen this so many times. That said there are a LOT of bulls out there with 35 inch spreads that are fully mature and will never get any better, there are bulls with soft bosses that will never be particularly hard IMO..Those bulls should be shot.

Perhaps I have a different set of standards and admit I don't altogether adhere by them, as passing on a bull such as this just means someone else will shoot him before the season is over so might as well be me, and I don't admonish anyone for any buffalo they shoot, but I just happen to be of this opinnion, feel the same about Lions and Elephants, Mule Deer and Antelope, but not so much on Jackrabbits and coyotes!

So put me in whatever notch you wish, I can live with it!

Ray is absolutely right; what a bull he would be in a few years, not that hes a bad bull now; point is, he has the POTENTIAL to improve, spread his genes, and THEN become the trophy we all dream of, and some of us hold out for.
And this brings to the fore an important point re 'trophy' hunting. As Saeed said, I believe in going out and shooting a bull under sporting circumstances, and remembering the details of the hunt. if he turns out to be a great trophy, why, i will thump my chest with the best of us etc. if it is a rpresentative old bull past breeding age, why, I will do the same! I dont let SCI, Rowland Ward, or anyone else dictate whatis to me an important trophy. i leave that to the guys aiming for the various "pinnacles'. Nothing wrong with that; each to his own. I just want to shoot buff past breeding age, crusty old bachelors, but dont necessarily disagree with those who want big horns.

Just to clarify again; I did not shoo tthis bull. It was taken by a client and the PH was Andy Payne. The rifle in the picture is one that Lon Paul made for the PH in 404 caliber.

The unofficial score is 56" or thereabouts.

Those that are concerned about it passing on its genes, I assure you that bull has already done so numerous times. those genes are not lost

What a fantastic trophy! Which concession did he come from and who was the PH?

I cannot believe some of the comments people are making, possibly some dont know buffalo well enough. Horn configurations vary tremendously in Africa, i have seen a few 45 inch bulls come off the Serengeti (Ft Ikomo area)that were definitely old and way past their prime and they had even smaller bosses. Each to his own and maybe he is not exactly what some are looking for but turn him down????? Some how i dont think so.....

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:
.... if it is a rpresentative old bull past breeding age, why, I will do the same! I dont let SCI, Rowland Ward, or anyone else dictate whatis to me an important trophy. i leave that to the guys aiming for the various "pinnacles'. Nothing wrong with that; each to his own. I just want to shoot buff past breeding age, crusty old bachelors,....

Indlovu,

Here's a prime example of a neat OLD bull, with bosses fully hardened and smoothed off....



Doesn't fit Kevin Robertson's rules, does it?

There is a tonne of variety amongst buff horns of all ages.

FWIW, I agree with your statement quoted above....I look for a mature animal, past his prime, hunted fairly...doesn't always work out how I'd like to script it, but thats what I try for.

Cheers,
Canuck

That old boy has got one eye...and then there's the buff.

Doktari would disagree; soft bossed bulls are disadvantaged in trials of strength and usually do not get the chance to breed.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Just to clarify again; I did not shoo tthis bull. It was taken by a client and the PH was Andy Payne. The rifle in the picture is one that Lon Paul made for the PH in 404 caliber.

The unofficial score is 56" or thereabouts.

Those that are concerned about it passing on its genes, I assure you that bull has already done so numerous times. those genes are not lost

quote:

Originally posted by Indlovu:
Doktari would disagree; soft bossed bulls are disadvantaged in trials of strength and usually do not get the chance to breed.

This bull does not have a soft boss. I'd venture to say it was in the prime of its breeding life.

Yep!

That boss is hard!! Does not matter which way you look at it. If there is to be a critique then it can only be that it is not an "AGED" bull past its prime.......but with buffalo, that would be splitting hairs...

Just a testimony about how much BS flies on AR by "experts" some times.

Any person that actualy KNOWS something about CBuff will tell you that this is a truly AWESOME trophy.

There is a reason why the messers. at Rowland Ward use the outside spread of these animals as a min. req.

Ndlovu: I have seen a lot of old dagga boys with tips above the top line of the boss.

It is all about different genetics.....this bull having a funny set is proof of that.

Like the joker on here that send me PM telling me that the 58" Kudu I posted was a bad trophy, because the horns was to narrow and the animal too thin.....?

Well done to the PH that picked this bull out for his client.....My hat of to you sir...

About the fees.....People always complain about increases, it does not matter how much or for what it is.....

What is not right is the immediate effect of these rises on people that booked on the old prices. But, I assume, if you can afford a $13k Buff hunt, an extra $1k would not bankrupt you.....just make you unhappy, untill you stand smiling next to THAT bull pictured above......

Bwanamich,

That's a fantastic buffalo, I'd have shot it. Thanks for sharing the picture.

Infinito,
So its your way or the highway huh? As a matter of fact I have seen a lot of bulls with shorter spreads that I would prefer over this bull.

IMO this bull looks like a long horn steer, to flat and I don't prefer that gene pool, but let me be clear I would have shot him, but he would not have been my favorite bull..

My best bull and one I consider perfect is on my web page cover, and he is a different gene pool, he may be no better but he is the KIND of bull I seek when I hunt Cape Buffalo...

I like bosses like Cunnucks bull, smooth, hard and shiny, I like a lot of dip and arch in the horns, I like an eye knocked out, ears shredded, and the tail chewed off by Lions, scars and scabs. These are the signs of an old warrior, one who has earned his stripes in Africa. He is not just some new big dumb kid on the block with a lot of muscle.

It boils down to preference, choice and what one likes and I don't consider that BS..

Same with Mule Deer, elk and any other animal. I know guys that all the look at when they see a Mule deer is "spread", don't care at all about mass, height or any other factor as to what constitutes a trophy mule deer, again I like mass of horn, dark choclate horns, height and width combined, I like both typical and non trypical, others only want typical.....

Just my opinnion, but its MY opinnion, and I'm the one pulling the trigger. I believe everyone has that right to decide for themselves.

I just had to wade in here. As a professional hunter in Tanzania, I simply can't believe some things I read on this post!!!! Not shoot this bull?? No horn drop?? A cow?? Immature bull?? Pleeeeeeze give me a break! If one of my clients said he would not shoot this mature trophy bull, I'd either tear up my PH license on the spot, or (better yet) shoot it myself, no matter what my expense!

For the benefit of these guys who never hunted buffalo, (IMO) passing this great bull is about equal to passing on a 195 class typ whitetail!!

I agree with Bwanamich & Mark Young: this 56 incher is every bit equal to a 100# tembo, even in today's africa. And in the 50's & 60's, this buffalo would have been far, far rarer than any 100 pounder! Please consider that in the "good old days" in East Africa, 100 lb elephant were consistantly shot; but darn few 56" buffalo! The better old time PH's shot several 100 pounders, but had their client said he desired to shoot a 56" buffalo...the client would have been laughed at! (I.M.O. The reason big ivory is so rare these days, is due mainly to large scale ivory poaching, and over-shooting of non-trophy young bulls.... not because genetics to produce 100 pounders is so ultra rare).

Please consider the following before passing up such an unbelievable trophy buffalo:

In just 10 years (Aug 1957 to Jan 1967) Ker & Downey Safaris alone (mind you, just one company): their clients (with 14 PHs) shot 28 elephant with BOTH TUSKS at or over 100 lb mark. During this same 10 year period, only 3 buffalo (throughtout ALL of Africa) over 56" were recorded with RW!! A chart showing winnners of the coveted SHAW & HUNTER outstanding East Africa trophy award, from 1955 to 1976 (21 great years) list only two buffalo (54" & 59+").and although no elephants won the award, rest assured many 100+ pounders were taken during those years.

F.W.I.W: The 2002 Rowland Ward book lists only 12 buffalo at/over 56 inches; but lists about 270 elephant at/over 100 lbs.
Yes, 100 lb ivory is indeed very rare in today's Africa....but a mature 56" buffalo has ALWAYS been exceedingly rare!!!

Congrats to the lucky client & PH!!!!!!!!!!

Not only would I shoot that bull in a heart beat, if, by chance, I happen on one 10 INCHES SHORTER, next month, I'll spend the rest of the hunt sitting back and toasting my incredible good fortune.

PH wouldn't have to ask me twice! Congrats to the lucky Hunter is all I have to say. Thanks for posting Mich. I enjoy looking at trophies; mine or others
Good hunting,
David

Complaining about this buff is like shooting the proverbial 100 pound elephant, and then saying, "Just think how big he would have been in another 20 years!" Or to use the whitetail analogy, saying the 195" whitetail was only a 6 year old, so you should let him grow bigger. Please!

Ray,
I'll book a buffalo hunt at the rates you quoted on the spot. And I won't mind if I have to settle for a buff in the low 40's, either!

quote:

PSmith,
Our 10 day Buff 1x1 hunts for 2008 will run $2050.00 all inclusive of one buffalo, charter and every thing but tips and Dar gun fees. $2200 for the second bull.

I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that this is a fantastic trophy bull, although somewhat unusual. I do agree with Ray's attitude though with regards to shooting bulls past their prime. They may not have the best measurements due to 'smoothing' their horn tips off, but at least you are not removing good breeding genetics from the population.

I would think that sneeking up on old dagga boys is probably more exciting than shooting a young boy from a herd, less chance of wounding others in the herd too! I think the enjoyment of the hunt is probably more important than the trophy itself to many people, and I think that is what some people were expressing, and I would probably agree with them. The drop on that bull that Yukon posted was awesome, and am sure that he would have measured pretty high, but you can still see hair growing between his horns though, and I would probably have felt guilty going after a young bull like that, which is probably still too young to be in his breeding prime and he would probably never pass his gifted genes on to further generations! Yes he would still make a fantastic trophy, but I would have tried waiting a few years before considering it. I think most people would have taken him (and someone did by the sound of things) due to his impressive horn size. He was probably shot because the hunter knew that someone else would shoot him if he passed it up, which is the way things go with trophy animals....get it while you can in other words.

I think what I am saying is for myself, a trophy bull would not be important. Yes I would love to hunt one, but it would almost certainly be a dagga boy or a hard bossed bull at least.