Folks,

You know I expect any number of people on the forum don't agree with me on any number of subjects but I have to say that anybody that says they would not shoot the 56" buffalo is full of BS or a fool. It is unquestionable a hardheaded buffalo and therefore legally and ethically a shooter.

Can anybody imagine a first time safari hunter walking away from a trophy like that because it did not fit his picture of a perfect bull? GIVE ME A BREAK! How about a guy that had shot a few buffalo going "no I only shoot buffalo with a drop of at least 6.79789" below the boss"? BULLSHIT!!!!! I don't beleive it!

You know it doesn't even matter if it is a classically "beautiful bull". Who cares? it is an incredible trophy and an exceptional specimen.

Mark

Gentleman: Perhaps this bull doesn't have ALL the attributes of the classic dagga boy, but for any of us to say that you would pass on it? You then will need to have your head and ass rewired together, because something has gone awry. I would wager you could spend a lifetime hunting buffalo and not cross paths with something of this magnitude; pull the damned trigger, pay the over-inflated trophy fee, and meet your maker with a smile on your face. BN

Can you imagine the fight if you were hunting and the PH says don't shoot

I agree anyone who says they wouldn't shoot that bullis full of it, or just a looking to argue.

Mark, I confused myself for a bit and probably others too there for a while. I fully agree with you on the 56 inch bull being a truly magnificent trophy, and hard-bossed and probably in his prime or near to it. I miss-read Yukon's post with his pic of the young, soft-bossed bull with deep drop, but not fantastic curl, still an impressive bull. I thought that that was the one that had just been shot that morning. I would have considered him to be too young, but still not too shabby on the trophy side. I would probably not pass that original 56' bull up unless I had forgotten my glasses if Ihad the opportunity. I would pass up a bull that still had skin and hair growing between his horns. I would still in all honesty prefer to go after dagga boys, but hey, it is not every day that you stumble accross 50+ inch bulls!

My statement of beauty being in the eye of the beholder seems to hold quite true for buff, most people have ideals for what the perfect buff should be. This bull is quite different to the usual with his lack of drop, makes him look like he is wearing a sombrero his horns are so wide! Sorry if I caused some alarm anyway!

Let me begin my response by saying I am NOT a trophy hunter. That does not mean I don't appreciate and try to take GOOD trophies but that that is not my purpose for hunting. I would not deliberately shoot the displayed Buffalo as it doesn't fit my PERSONAL picture of what is a nice representative trophy. I PERSONALLY think massive bosses are the impressive point of a Buffalo trophy,that being said I have to say I don't really like hunting Buffalo and the one and only I took was just to take a Buffalo. My favorite is Elephant but I would not deliberately shoot some of the 100# animals I have seen shot either. I have seen 100# tusks that were so thin as to appear like toothpicks, I like those of more balanced and leaning to thick proportions. The ones I have of those I have shot are only 45# but are quite well proportioned. Normal proportions are what appeal to me. I like a particular shape to Kudu horns and length doesn't enter into the wequation at all. So in response to the question I would not have shot this Buffalo except on the insistence of the PH.

Fortunately for those of you who like the old scabby broken up dagga boys better than this AWSOME trophy they are much more common in most of the hunting venues across Africa. An even older man once told me that you can make your mouth say anything. He would love this forum as do I. Cheers! Adrian

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Let me begin my response by saying I am NOT a trophy hunter. That does not mean I don't appreciate and try to take GOOD trophies but that that is not my purpose for hunting. I would not deliberately shoot the displayed Buffalo as it doesn't fit my PERSONAL picture of what is a nice representative trophy. I PERSONALLY think massive bosses are the impressive point of a Buffalo trophy,that being said I have to say I don't really like hunting Buffalo and the one and only I took was just to take a Buffalo. My favorite is Elephant but I would not deliberately shoot some of the 100# animals I have seen shot either. I have seen 100# tusks that were so thin as to appear like toothpicks, I like those of more balanced and leaning to thick proportions. The ones I have of those I have shot are only 45# but are quite well proportioned. Normal proportions are what appeal to me. I like a particular shape to Kudu horns and length doesn't enter into the wequation at all. So in response to the question I would not have shot this Buffalo except on the insistence of the PH.

I read it and read it agsin, and I am still hopelessly confused!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I believe it to be a bull, and the bosses are hard enough to be hard bosses, a little hair between but still very shootable..however I agree that given a few more years it would be a truly awesome bull... I would like to think I could pass it up but not at all sure that would be the case..

I can understand why some would think it was a cow, it could almost be, based on pictures that many have looked at and for those that have not spent a lot of time looking over buffalo.. but I don't think its a cow, but that is not an out of line question I wouldn't think.

PSmith,
If those are Tanz Safari costs they are sure higher than most by a good margine..Trophy fee on a buffalo today is about $2200, Airfare is $2000, and daily rates are $1250 to $1500..I think that my figures would represent a good average figure..Our 10 day Buff 1x1 hunts for 2008 will run $2050.00 all inclusive of one buffalo, charter and every thing but tips and Dar gun fees. $2200 for the second bull. Plainsgame is up about a hundred dollars per head on some of the 5 animals and the same on the rest...That is up from $15,550. unless things change and that won't happen.

Ray,

I would like to book five, 10 Day Buffalo Hunts back to back for 2008. Would you like me to write the check for $10,250 today, or should I wait until Monday. Since you are throwing such a great deal out there for a buff hunt, I will even toss in a $1,000 to you as a Thank You.

Do you think the .470 and .416 will be ok to bring? Since I was saving so much money I was wondering if I should buy a new Double.

I will call you Monday to work out dates, and travel.

Thanks,

John

(I am surprised no one else picked up on this great deal by Ray.)

I had one thing in mind from looking at the first pic. But, after looking at the 2nd pic, I changed my mind. Where's the Fee's Payment line?

Dave

It seems there are some real wankers posting here!

Neither of the first two bulls are what I consider the best configuration for a real choice Cape Buffalo bull, and yes, to the poster who doubted, I do look at conformation before I shoot, regardless of what the PH says. The only exception to that is, if he is chargeing, he could be a yearling, and he gets hit.

The statement, about the first two bulls, has nothing to do with their age, but is a matter of personal likes and dislikes! Both bulls are shooters, and are old enough to be on my wall, but they wouldn't be my choice if one I liked better, but smaller, was standing between them, and piss on the measurements! I'd take a 38" bull that has hard bosses, deep drop, with horn tips coming back up to just under the top of his bosses, with horn tips that turn back. He could be under the 100" minimum for SCI, and it wouldn't deter me at all. I've never carried a tape measure into the field while hunting anyplace! For those who think all buffalo grow together if they live long enough, think again. They normally do, at some point, but some never grow together. I've seen some buffalo that were so old they didn't have more than stubs of their teeth left, and still had 3"wide strip of hair between the bosses, and horn tips worn down to look more like saddle horns tops than buffalo horn tips.

Would I take the bull that started this thread? Hell yes! Would I take it in Tanzania? hell no! TZ can go to hell and take their price gouging with them! They are like a dog that bites the hand that feeds him, and a dog doesn't bite me but once, and after that he doesn't bite anyone again!

To the hunter who took the buffalo that started this thread, congratulations, on your bull, you owe no oppology to anyone here, or anyplace else!

I have taken only one 36" buff but would shoot the one you shot in a heartbeat. Everyone else is just jealous.

There's NO WAY I would shoot that buffalo! And the next time Cindy Garrison tries to crawl into bed with me, I'll kick her out!

The PH wouldn't have to tell me twice to shoot!

My point was that because of some of the press and ca ca out there, I can see where some that have not hunted buff before might get the idea that was a cow, probably based on some pictures of cows that have been posted and photographed in magazines, but in reality the bosses are a little too large and hard for a cow and that would be obvious to the astute..

It is a hard bossed bull of about 4 or 5 years old, and yes it would get better in years as they ALL do that..

Anyone hunting buffalo would shoot this bull, or they would be a little out of sinc IMO....

I have seen many better bulls or rather bulls that I would have preferred to shoot, and I think that is where Yukon Delta is coming from. I prefer a lot of drop below the jaw line and big curls coming back to boss line, I like a lot of mass, scars, wounds, tattered ears, a slick shiny marble like boss, all those things that bespeak of an old warrior...but a 53 inch buffalo is not one to pass up and that I agree on emphatically..

quote:

It is a hard bossed bull of about 4 or 5 years old, and yes it would get better in years as they ALL do that..

Bwana Atkinson IMO this particular 53 Inch Bull is Minimum 8-9 years old. Which 4-5 years he is compleatly soft Bossed Bull.

Seloushunter

Not being a trophy hunter would someone please try to explain to me why you absolutely HAVE to shoot this Buffalo or you are something less than a hunter. I can honestly say in the 8 safaris I have made I have just tried to take representative animals and have so instructed the PH I have hunted with. I usually can't tell the difference between big and real big either on the wall or in the field. I have seen big Sable that I would have liked to shoot and I have always wanted a really big Kudu but in honesty I can't really tell the difference and it really seems to come down to a bragging thing and in no way displays your skill just your luck. I know Picaso,Rembrandt, and Monet are famous artists but you actually could not GIVE me a Picaso if I was required to keep it and I far prefer Monet to Rembrandt. These are personal choices and I just can't understand the REQUIREMENT that I be impressed by this Buffalo when he does not conform to what I personally think a great Buffalo should be. I shall probably never 'get it'.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Not being a trophy hunter would someone please try to explain to me why you absolutely HAVE to shoot this Buffalo or you are something less than a hunter. I can honestly say in the 8 safaris I have made I have just tried to take representative animals and have so instructed the PH I have hunted with. I usually can't tell the difference between big and real big either on the wall or in the field. I have seen big Sable that I would have liked to shoot and I have always wanted a really big Kudu but in honesty I can't really tell the difference and it really seems to come down to a bragging thing and in no way displays your skill just your luck. I know Picaso,Rembrandt, and Monet are famous artists but you actually could not GIVE me a Picaso if I was required to keep it and I far prefer Monet to Rembrandt. These are personal choices and I just can't understand the REQUIREMENT that I be impressed by this Buffalo when he does not conform to what I personally think a great Buffalo should be. I shall probably never 'get it'.

I agree with most of that.
However after a PH course in RSA, I now feel fairly confident in judging size of horns etc.

What I will say is that I think it is sad that that you here of stories when a hunter will not shoot the animal because its horns 'might' be an inch too short for the record books - even though it is a mature, old beast.

I don't like the idea of trophy hunting.Honestly, I think it stinks....
What I want is an exciting, difficult & hard hunt on a MATURE animal.
If it turns out to be a trophy, well then thats just a bonus.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Folks,

You know I expect any number of people on the forum don't agree with me on any number of subjects but I have to say that anybody that says they would not shoot the 56" buffalo is full of BS or a fool. It is unquestionable a hardheaded buffalo and therefore legally and ethically a shooter.

Can anybody imagine a first time safari hunter walking away from a trophy like that because it did not fit his picture of a perfect bull? GIVE ME A BREAK! How about a guy that had shot a few buffalo going "no I only shoot buffalo with a drop of at least 6.79789" below the boss"? BULLSHIT!!!!! I don't beleive it!

You know it doesn't even matter if it is a classically "beautiful bull". Who cares? it is an incredible trophy and an exceptional specimen.

Mark

Absolutely. When I'm in Masailand next year and if one like that appears, he's going down if I have anything to do with it. I certainly do not profess to be a Cape buffalo expert, but then I haven't been able to afford fifteen or twenty buffalo hunts like some here, and this will be my last. My last buff would qualify for SCI, but I could care less. Coming home with a trophy like that first one would be a remarkable hunt, to say the least. And I'd heartily share the backstraps with all comers.

Mbogo bigger bwana,
You need to go back to school, you missed the boat somewhere and failed Buff 101...

A Cape Buffalo bull gets his full size by 3 or 4 years then starts working on the bosses etc..I am calling him a 4 or 5 year old bull perhaps 6 and in his breeding prime, his trophy quality will peak out at 8 to 13 years old uf the lions don't get him. Cape Buffalo are just like any other bovine domestic or otherwise...If he was 8 or 9 years old then his bosses wouldn't be so ruddy and they would be starting to show rubbing and signs of becoming slick and marble like. His body would show scars of battle and Lion encounters, his ears would be shredded more.

I think that this thread could go on forever! There is so much variation in horn size and shape with cape buff that it ultimately comes down to what tickles your fancy. I think that both buff are young and talented (both are a lovely rich black with no thorn or lion scratches, or battle scars visible). Their bosses are not pronounced, and I would probably agree with Ray as to the age and that they would probably look better with time (in the eye of the beholder). If given a few years, they would fit my books of what a real buff should be. Aging the teeth is probably the best, but obviously not always practical in the field!

I always respect a moth-eaten buff too with big bosses, and lion scars all down his flanks, irrespective of his horn-size drop, curl, or whatever. He could be a scrum-cap bull and be a trophy in my books! I respect them all and enjoy all of them, even the cows, they are all scary and dangerous, even the yearlings or younger! They each have their own character (which is usually mean)! I am sure that the few who have hunted forest buffallo (with their smaller stature and horns) have not been let down either with their aggression and tenacity to life.

Ray please read Buffalo from Boddington, Nyati from African Hunter or Africa´s most Dangerous from Robertson carefully and they all will confirm my View that this 53 Inch Bull is not a Youngster but in his Prime and definetly a Shooter....4-5 Years Age for this Moyowosi Buff is a Joke.


Seloushunter

As for the original question...would I pay new Tanz trophy fees for that bull in Tanzania...probably not! I do think that Tanzania probably has some of if not the best trophy buff in Africa...if you can afford to hunt them.

I guess we all strive toward hard bossed/wide trophy - IMO passing a wide soft bossed trophy diverse boys from men - BUT things happen - thou - another opportunity to diverse men from boys - too many softies turn hard when they are back from taxidermist

Age...somewhere between 5 and 8 with a stab in the dark? 5 does actually sound a bit young and his horns and boss would probably be hitting a growth spurt around this age maybe? I wouldnt say he is any more than 8, but that is just a guess. At what age does boss deposition seriously start and horn length stop growing or slow down at least....around 7-10 years? I am sure guys out there can tell me that would be genetics and food quantity and quality aside. Atwhat age does a buff usually start becoming hard-bossed, I would think after 5-6 years, does that sound right?

As the initiator of this thread I would like to add the following:

1- The final measurement for this buff (1st pic on this thread) as measured by an SCI Master Measurer were:

Tip-to-tip measurements of horns – 101 1/8

Width of boss – Left: 12 2/8, Right: 13 2/8

Total score – 126 5/8

Supplemental information: outside spread of horns 55 7 /8

2- For the sake of the client and PH as well as to give this wonderful trophy its dues, I can confirm that the bosses were DEFINATLY HARD! I have touched/felt/examined them myself after dipping as well as over a dozen respected and experienced Professional Hunters have confirmed this in my presence (For what it counts).
Nough said!!!

Happy hunting!

Magnificent Buffalo!

Congrats!

Chuck

I've been hunting Buffalo with clients for 28 years now and I can honestly say that in the real world of African hunting, I don't think I've ever had a single client who would even think twice about not shooting that Buffalo after a decent stalk..... every single one of them would have whacked it in a heartbeat.

I can think of more than a few PHs, (probably including myself!) who, if the client turned it down, would have shot it themselves......

"The irony of this whole post is not the trophy but where it was shot. How many of you plan on going to TZ and have deposits down for next year? How many were thinking about it but are no longer and will book elsewhere? The reality is that you could save for TZ, go over and possibly find this bull's brother and then get hit afterwards with more fees than you can (or would) handle." Yukon delta

Yukon, have you hunted in Tanz? Hunted buff?

I ask that because my familly hunted buff in the selous last july. We almost cancelled a few days before the trip because of the hysteria going on here on AR. Hysteria that for the most part was spread by people who had never been to Tanz.

We paid exactly what we were quoted no more no less. (we were on a short 7 day hunt)

I heard that some 21 day hunts saw increases on the high dollar animals, lions, eles, etc but I'm not aware of any after the fact increases on short 7 day hunts at least not with PVT

The reality is that after a 4 or 5 hour hump thru the long grass and you come across a mature buff you are going to shoot it. At least on a short hunt and at least if it's you first buff.

anybody who says otherwise is full of BS

I have never been to Zim but I have been to the selous and if I had it my way I never would have left.

Mark, most of the nit-picking "fundis" here who say they wouldn't shoot it because it doesn't have a huge "helmet" style boss don't know any better. They are used to southern African buffalo, with generally smallish spreads but heavier bosses. They fail to realize that really WIDE spread buffalo horns hardly ever have large bosses, especially a "helmet" style (they tend to be flat-bossed). They also seldom "drop" very much, (although I've seen a few exceptions).

I read somewhere once that the famous hunter Prince Abdorezza Palavi's biggest goal was to shoot a 50" buffalo. With all his time, money, and best PH's at his disposal, he never did!!

If a guy was silly enough to pass on this fully mature, MONSTER bull, that's fine, (more for us, right??!!!!) Rather see it go to someone who knows it's value, and truly appreciates it! But if these same guys nit-picked in Alaska and passed up an 11' brown bear because he did not like the shade of brown; I guarantee his guide would be pissed off as hell! But still, it IS his hunt...

It is great to know that Tanzania's still the leader in producing monster, high scoring Rowland Ward bulls!!! It's unlikely one could shoot a buffalo this wide anywhere else these days. I think if I were a client (instead of a PH) and I shot this 56" bull; I'd personally consider my entire safari a success; But that's just my opinion.....

Tanz-PH

I'd shoot that bull just because he is an anomalie. I love the different and bizarre. Of course having him score highly in the record book would not hurt either.

Mark

So I suppose those of you who commented about the "tips being above the head" and "not enough drop" or "tips are not worn down" would pass this one up too for being young

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
So I suppose those of you who commented about the "tips being above the head" and "not enough drop" or "tips are not worn down" would pass this one up too for being young

i wouldent pass on any of them, but my bankier would, like he did before.

bwanamich, where was the last photo taken, thats an impressive buff.

best regards

peter

Ndutu in the Serengeti

Bawanamich – Great photo, look at the attitude on his face, thanks for sharing.

Man! Another monster from northern Tanzania. I agree the tips above the boss theory really does not hold water and this buffalo is a prime example. If you look at our website you'll see a number of hard headed buffalo with tips above the boss.

Mark

The buff to the right is no slouch either.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
The buff to the right is no slouch either.

Jeff

Which buff to the right?

I suppose some guys on here would pass this one up too????http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk94/pichamzuri/misc196.jpg

i suppose some guys on here would pass this one up t oo???

Mich,

Maybe you're correct maybe just maybe the one on the left IS better???