quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Of course, since she is apparently highly regarded at SCI, I am prepared to assume that this was her only poached trophy. Surely she would never have done anything like this before...

I will bet anything to anyone that many, many Top SCI trophies have been gotten by either illegal or very shady means!

I know certain individuals who get prizes given to them by SCI who have gotten their trophies in ways none of us consider as hunting!

SCI needs to wake up - but don't hold your breath - or this is going to get really bad!

I was surprised when I opened the link and it was our local paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just an observation here. Maybe it has reached the point in time, where SCI/Boone & Crockett/Pope & Young and any or all organizations that give awards for trophy game animals, need to just recognize the animal and not the hunter.

I believe that B&C has discussed this a few times, the premise being to cut down on the competitiveness and reduce the instances of people, both hunters and guides/outfitters from crossing the lines of legalities and ethics.

Good idea in my mind. I also belive that the different species should have an aged attached. That is an age thatfor that species is passed its prime and done most of its breeding. massive points deducted for an animal under the age and points added for years over the age.

We are in an age of more hunters and less free range for the animals.

quote:

I know certain individuals who get prizes given to them by SCI who have gotten their trophies in ways none of us consider as hunting!

That's precisely why its called the "Inner Circle" - a Club within a Club; where the pecking order is decided amongst themselves

Never will they bite one another - their boxed skeletons and dirty laundry are a shared secret and its just a question of establishing whose turn it is for the next award or who will occupy which chair at the table.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Of course, since she is apparently highly regarded at SCI, I am prepared to assume that this was her only poached trophy. Surely she would never have done anything like this before...

I will bet anything to anyone that many, many Top SCI trophies have been gotten by either illegal or very shady means!

I know certain individuals who get prizes given to them by SCI who have gotten their trophies in ways none of us consider as hunting!

SCI needs to wake up - but don't hold your breath - or this is going to get really bad!

When the possession of the trophy is more important to someone than the process of acquiring it, the details of how they acquire it aren't important. To them.

I don't know this woman, or any of her circle, but I would automatically assume any trophy she displays was poached, or shot from a helicopter, or bought, or canned.

You must be joking. everyone knows SCI holds it's hierarchy to the highest possible standards. ask a former SCI president, who admitted in federal court to witnessing a moose shot in Russia from a helicopter. he did receive the door gunner award though, along with another former member who actually did the shooting and entered the moose in the famous SCI record book. WHAT A F--KING JOKE!

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
You must be joking. everyone knows SCI holds it's hierarchy to the highest possible standards. ask a former SCI president, who admitted in federal court to witnessing a moose shot in Russia from a helicopter. he did receive the door gunner award though, along with another former member who actually did the shooting and entered the moose in the famous SCI record book. WHAT A F--KING JOKE!

there is some hunters (done or still doing hunting shows) that have done the same and some here are highly speaking of them .... what is legal in some places is illegal in others places ,ethical or not that is a different story ....

quote:

there is some hunters (done or still doing hunting shows) that have done the same and some here are highly speaking of them .... what is legal in some places is illegal in others places ,ethical or not that is a different story ....

Medved:

Speak not in riddles - name them!

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

But, it is much worse when those who are supposed to be upholding our hunting ethics break the laws to satisfy their own glorification and self importance.

....holding office in an organization where, and I quote: "have PLEDGED themselves to further the ethical practices and fellowship of those who hunt big game; to work for the conservation of all animal life worldwide and to help educate other on those principles".

Well, the lady got caught out with the bear but it sets the mind wondering if there are any other trophies in the pile that were obtained in much the same manner?

Had she NOT been nabbed, she would have to-date been walking about at the shows with her chest puffed out and might even have been voted in as Chairwoman of the Awards Selection Committee and possibly the President of the Sables?

The other question is HOW she was found out - was it as a result of the shady outfitter getting dunked and subsequent investigations identifying the lady as one among other law-breakers?

SCI was left with little option other than recall the award which had been give to her.

Is she still a member of SCI? - something like this deserves nothing short of a lifetime ban - its what you get if you cheat in a fishing competition.

Oh yes, I almost forgot, MS got booted for something far less serious

Did Sullivan get him SCI membership cancelled?

I don't believe he got cancelled, just can't be an exhibitor. (I think)

Yes - so no relation to this at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Rule 303:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just an observation here. Maybe it has reached the point in time, where SCI/Boone & Crockett/Pope & Young and any or all organizations that give awards for trophy game animals, need to just recognize the animal and not the hunter.

I believe that B&C has discussed this a few times, the premise being to cut down on the competitiveness and reduce the instances of people, both hunters and guides/outfitters from crossing the lines of legalities and ethics.

Good idea in my mind. I also belive that the different species should have an aged attached. That is an age thatfor that species is passed its prime and done most of its breeding. massive points deducted for an animal under the age and points added for years over the age.

We are in an age of more hunters and less free range for the animals.

Who is going to accurately age all of these animals?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I know certain individuals who get prizes given to them by SCI who have gotten their trophies in ways none of us consider as hunting!

That's precisely why its called the "Inner Circle" - a Club within a Club; where the pecking order is decided amongst themselves

Never will they bite one another - their boxed skeletons and dirty laundry are a shared secret and its just a question of establishing whose turn it is for the next award or who will occupy which chair at the table.

Wipe the spittle away!!

Matt & other SCI supporters

Setting aside all the heated debate & pissing matches etc for a moment.

What do you guys think she & SCI should do about the situation?

For example, should she be stripped of this & perhaps all her other awards, should she resign or be expelled from the organisation, should there be an investigation into possible collusion etc?

I'm genuinely interested in what you guys think should happen now.

Anyone knows why a former president was kicked out of SCI?


Steve,

If there is any investigation about possible collusion in all the shenanigans that goes on at SCI, there won't be many people left at the top in that organization?

I hope someone will answer my question above!

Saeed

Perhaps that's what it needs but I seem to remember promises or at least comments of 'new broom' etc when the current President took over.

I'm really interested to know what the SCI supporters think what (if anything) should happen now though......

Steve,

The rot has been going on at SCI for years.

I remember every time a new president is being elected, we heard the same promise that things are going to be sorted out.

Never happened.

Never will from what we are seeing.

Saeed

I agree completely & I'm not even surprised nothing has changed.......... which is why I'm hoping the (usually so vocal) SCI supporters here will tell us what they think should happen now.

I'm not seeking ammunition or planning a secret agenda, I'm just interested in hearing their opinions.

I am going to continue my membership and support the best origination for hunter support there is in the world. Is it perfect, no but it does a great job supporting hunters rights. Everything cried about on here is miniscule in the large picture. The only place I see this bitching is on here. The anti's will always find something to bitch about.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed

I agree completely & I'm not even surprised nothing has changed.......... which is why I'm hoping the (usually so vocal) SCI supporters here will tell us what they think should happen now.

I'm not seeking ammunition or planning a secret agenda, I'm just interested in hearing their opinions.

Steve

It really doesn't matter what the membership says does it? SCI has proven to be totally disconnected to what their membership thinks as seen here. The members here have proven to be reasonable people in my mind. It will be the Inner Circle who will decide her fate, and I can guess what that decision will be. You are preaching to the choir here I think.

I don't mean to preach to the converted....... I'm just interested if people such as Matt & Ed etc think she should be stripped of this & perhaps other awards and/or expelled or if they think the punishment handed down by the court is sufficient etc.

I'm honestly not sniping, I'm just genuinely interested in hearing the opinions of those that are usually so very keen to support SCI.

I think she should lose the award and any others which were taken illegally.

I think they should keep her as a member. Her money spends as well as anyone else s.

Little doubt the record book promotes bad behavior by those with the record book mentality.

I agree that they are great at hunter support. My problem is that the people they appear before supporting the hunter will start to question their honesty in regards to protecting hunters rights. If you can't keep your own house in order, why would you continue to pay attention. I've been a member of SCI for many years, but doubt I will continue. I've found myself going back to the enjoyment of the hunt and to hell with the record books.

This is not unlike the entire Boddington fiasco. It does not matter how much "good" an organziation does or an individual does, if the integrity is compromised, the "good deeds" are valueless.

I understand that people make mistakes and accidents occur, but repeated unethical behavour when you supposedly hold yourself to higher standard is flat out wrong.

SCI needs to sort out what it truly represents and does before they get my dollars again.

As for Boddington, he has shown his colors and been exposed.

Forgiveness is always available assuming it is asked for.

I know the current President Craig Kaufmann since he was a regional rep., he always seemed like a honorable man. What he can do in the overall make up of SCI I sure don't know, but I do know he is not Mr. Money Bags although he is in the banking industry.

Yes I agree this lady should suffer the consequences of her actions as should the outfitter and guide. They led the way and she happily followed. I don't think the record books are devils hand books just some people succumb to their lure.

There maybe some ill gotten entries but I would say the vast majority of the top heads are hard won, maybe I am just naïve. I hope not as I still believe in the good of my fellow man.

Hell, I still post here after many years.

I don't know these folks but I don't see how SCI is implicated in this other than being the victim of a fraud. Although not a justification or excuse at any level, it also seems that the outfitter here bears the brunt of the responsibility, as he seems to have had a history of condoning or in fact encouraging this type of behavior. Guided hunters don't generally violate the law in this manner without the approval or encouragement of those they are hunting with. In the end it's the responsibility of the hunter to say "NO", no question, but we don't know what pressure was put on the hunter by the outfitter to violate the law in this instance.

EB,
I agree. SCI is the victim as well. However, when the problem is apparent and shown to be fraud, they need to deal with it. Raise the bar, set a high standard for ethical hunting and people will flock to your organzation.

I'll bet that every record book has at least it's fair share of dodgy and/or ill gotten entries scattered throughout them and although I'm not a fan of SCI per se, I tend to see them (largely) as a victim in this but a victim that might have indirectly encouraged the crime by having all the inner and outer circle nonsense etc.

As I've said though, I'll be VERY interested to hear what the SCI supporters think about whether she should have this and perhaps other awards withdrawn, should she be expelled from the organisation or not & should there be an investigation into whether there was any collusion or not...... and come to that, if there was, what should be done about it.

Steve, did you get my email?

Now to the discussion at hand. I don't know what is wrong with the Slams and Inner circles. If one wants to participate OK, it is on the individual (looking into the mirror each morning) to answer to themselves.

There are hard drugs available to everyone of us and it is on our shoulders to use or not to use. Life is full of such choices - why is SCI or any other organization responsible for members actions. The application has all the required statements. Oh I know all hunts that the hunter wants trophies from entered into record books must be filmed and the unedited film be provided to the committee with proper notarized certification as to the authenticy. Oh Hell there are ways and there are ways. Ain't life a bitch.

By the way locks are only for honest people.

Ed

No mate..... haven't had an email from you. Did you use numzaan@zoho.com which is my personal address?

I don't mean to criticise the slams & circles etc because I don't know enough about them but do wonder if such things might sometimes encourage unethical practices/behaviour....... what I'm most interested in though is what the supporters think should happen now though?

I'd like to think the organisation would strip her of all awards & kick her out entirely & ban her for life but that's from my perspective of a non member looking in & I wonder if members would agree with that or not.

Steve: I have already told you what I thought should happen to her. As a life member of SCI, she disgusts me. I believe that anyone that is caught doing this or is eventually found out, should permanently be banned and their awards surrendered and any entries be stricken from the books.

It would be interesting to know the details.


In that part of the world, it is basically daylight 24 hours a day that time of year. I wonder if this is a situation where she shot it a few minutes before midnight?

good for you! but the rest of the vocal SCI supporters have dodged the issue entirely with platitudes about the organization( but no mention of what should be done to the poacher) or ignored the question entirely….

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I don't mean to preach to the converted....... I'm just interested if people such as Matt & Ed etc think she should be stripped of this & perhaps other awards and/or expelled or if they think the punishment handed down by the court is sufficient etc.

I'm honestly not sniping, I'm just genuinely interested in hearing the opinions of those that are usually so very keen to support SCI.

Yeah of course she should be dressed-down by the club. If a member of my local hunting club was convicted of a wildlife offence I am pretty sure they would be ejected - SCI should be the same. SCI does have these processes and they do use them... it just seems like sometimes the wheels grind VERY slowly. That can happen with very large organisations like this.

Sorry I didnt reply earlier, I had to sleep for a few hours.

Matt

Do you mean you believe she should be stripped of this and/or all awards and/or kicked out/asked to resign and/or banned for life etc?

Well we dont know the full details but like I said; if it was my local hunt club she would probably be removed for life. SCI would ask her to show cause why she shouldnt be removed, for bringing the club into disrepute, etc. If they didnt like her reasons they would kick her out and remove whatever awards and record entries they wanted to. This has happened to a few other members in recent times, so it is not without precedent... and this woman has been charged with a pretty serious wildlife offence it would seem to me. To think SCI courts this kind of behaviour is just arrant nonsense. Can some cases get covered-up within arms of the organisation - yeah I am sure that happens sometimes. As in everything we deal with though - 99.9% of users/members behave in a lawful manner.

It seems to me from what is written in this thread that the hunters made poor choices with the outfitter they booked. How often do we hear of that happening - inside and outside of SCI? Ignorance isnt a defence though eh??

The facts are a court of law found her guilty of the charges reported so to me that's pretty straight forward.

What I'm trying to find out isn't what other clubs would do, it's what individual SCI members/supporters believe should happen now?

Do they think the organisation should strip her of all awards & kick her out entirely & ban her for life or do they not and if not, what?

I'm not having a dig at SCI (in fact, I rather see them as a victim in this), I just want to know what others think but it seems everyone (except Larry) is a bit chary about stating an opinion.

Well I think SCI should follow their procedures - but if the news report is accurate then yeah I would kick her out, for sure.

shakari, after being found guilty in a court of law,and in violation of SCI ethics. This should be permanent removal from membership, and removal of all records from the books. This violation goes to the core of sportsmanship in hunting, and fair chase. As a member of SCI that is my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Well I think SCI should follow their procedures - but if the news report is accurate then yeah I would kick her out, for sure.

if the news report is accurate??? the idiot and her son pleaded guilty. they admitted to changing the date on their camera to indicate a legal kill, they admitted to falsifying the date on the tag, they admitted to falsifying the kill date on the SCI record submission. it should take SCI about 15 seconds to ban her for life, take back any awards and delete ALL of her previous records. my best guess is that a year from now, she will still be a member, albeit perhaps minus the Diana award. as EVERYONE knows, the SCI Ethics committee moves at glacial speed- IF IT MOVES AT ALL. JUST ASK DAWIE GROENWALD!

I've been an SCI supporter for a while.

Sorry, she was found guilty in a court of law.

Revoke her awards. SCI Lifetime ban. I would keep her animals in the book, but change the hunter's name to "unethical hunter, fair chase hunt in question" and leave it at that.

While she may be a fine person, given the fact that she sits on the Diana award committee she knew what she did was wrong. Sure, folks make mistakes, and I can appreciate that- so no lifetime hunting ban, but SCI's reputation has been damaged by this; they do need to start policing it. If she is as good a person as the one poster said, even this would be nothing compared to the regret she has that she did this.

You know, it is one thing to do something wrong without knowing it.

But, it is an entirely different matter if you purposely mislead and fabricate facts so you can be honored and presented as a model hunter!

What she and her outfitter did is utterly disgusting.

It has absolutely nothing to do with hunting.

I understand that she also shot a big kudu in some sort of paddock in South Africa.

And we also know the shady industry in South Africa that caters for clients like her.

By capturing animals to order, as long as the fit in the Top 10 SCI records.

I got it from someone at SCI.

They KNOW what is going on, but they are not doing anything about it, because it affects many of the so called "inner circle" members.

SCI does not won't to admit they have created a disgusting monster, and they keep feeding it.

At the expense of what we all call hunting.

What SCI should do is revoke every single trophy she has entered.

She should be kicked out of the SCI for life.

At the same time, they should investigate many others like her, and do exactly the same to them, and the specialized PHs and outfitters who cater for this sort of client.

And name and shame the bloody lot!

That will be a start of an organization showing that they do actually care about hunting and hunters.

And not about the few self glorifying individuals who have been doing everything to bring the organization down.

ABSOLUTELY!