What do you think about these three buff:

Age?

Overall Quality?

Score?

Soft boss or not, I wouldn't pass those either.

Wow,I can't say I have ever seen buffalo with such thick horns. Obviously extremely wide.

Just my opinion.

top pic- 4-5 yrs old.,a little soft,over 45",I would shoot him

middle pic- 6+ yrs,hard head but boss is not knarly,over 45", I would shoot him much quicker.

3rd pic- 6+yrs,hard head but not knarly boss,42-45",yes I would shoot him

Something is not right about the top pic,either the guy is small or its a huge bodied buff.IMHO
wesley

Most any buff with giant hooks is young and has soft bosses. Shoot 'em if you want.

That middle one was taken by Len Guldman who owns a nice gun shop here in the Denver area. He's not just over 45 he's over 50". I've laid my hands on those horns before.

He took him with Ridge Taylor(RIP) in Tanzania. Oh and that rifle...If I'm not mistaken it's Pondoro's old .450 the same one he took the elephant that he hunted with Ivan Carter last year.

Pic #1
Pic #2
Pic #3

isn't anybody going to suggest to run them down, pull a tooth and do a cut test to make sure they are old enuf??

I would shoot every single one, and anyone else who says, "oh they are too young, and soft bosses, I would pass!!! is a liar!"

Would I shoot any of those three? No.

Do I care in the least that these gents did? No.

I do not hunt for score at all. Hence, the score of these bulls means nothing to me.. so no, oryxhunter, I am not lying when I say that I would not shoot these buffalo. If they float your boat, knock yourself out!

three juveniles...just think if they lived to pass on there genes, Mature is the way to go.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
Would I shoot any of those three? No.

Do I care in the least that these gents did? No.

I do not hunt for score at all. Hence, the score of these bulls means nothing to me.. so no, oryxhunter, I am not lying when I say that I would not shoot these buffalo. If they float your boat, knock yourself out!

+1 Well said.

I like old scum cap old old bulls with lots of character.

quote:

I would shoot every single one, and anyone else who says, "oh they are too young, and soft bosses,

Agreed! OOPS, not the original intent of the post!
Peter

I've never killed a really big buffalo but I think to my untrained eye at least two of those bulls are quite young. I would not shoot them so I guess that makes me a liar. The pix appear to be older and I think even a few years ago safari operators were not that fussy about hard bossed bulls. Today I think most legitimate operators will encouage a client to only shoot a very mature buffalo.

Mark

I stand corrected, there are plenty of folks who wouldn't shoot these buffs...and they aren't liars!

However, interesting counter point to the idea that they need to be left to getting old to pass on the genes.

In a study following bison, an entire herd was dna tested, and parentage testing done on all offspring for 10 years. The results of that study were in fact...that 1 year old calves did in fact do 10-12 percent of the breeding, and 2yr olds did some breeding as well...

Further study indicated that these calves were breeding their mothers, sisters, aunts, and cousins...so the whole idea that only the old bull breed is completely not true, and infact, as young as these buffs might be...their genes are prolly found in a calf...

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I stand corrected, there are plenty of folks who wouldn't shoot these buffs...and they aren't liars!

However, interesting counter point to the idea that they need to be left to getting old to pass on the genes.

In a study following bison, an entire herd was dna tested, and parentage testing done on all offspring for 10 years. The results of that study were in fact...that 1 year old calves did in fact do 10-12 percent of the breeding, and 2yr olds did some breeding as well...

Further study indicated that these calves were breeding their mothers, sisters, aunts, and cousins...so the whole idea that only the old bull breed is completely not true, and infact, as young as these buffs might be...their genes are prolly found in a calf...

Well, you answered the question right there. Shoot the old f**kers like me that ain't of any use to the herd!

The same old argument is used about elephant bulls. Don't shoot the young ones because it eliminates the gene pool and don't shoot the old ones because it eliminates the gene pool. What phony baloney.

There is something strange about photo 1.

Look at the proportionate sizes of the hunter and the rifle, doesn't look right.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I would shoot every single one, and anyone else who says, "oh they are too young, and soft bosses, I would pass!!! is a liar!"

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I stand corrected, there are plenty of folks who wouldn't shoot these buffs...and they aren't liars!

I'm glad to see that you have come to realize that not all of us hunt for the same reason.

I have a question for you: if you shot the buff in picture 1 would you have the taxidermist mount him with the hair down the middle of the boss, or would you let him enhance the trophy by adding plaster to give it a hard boss?

Maybe the middle one for me on day 21 if I hadn't shot a single buff yet and I had three tags, in Tanzania. The deep curl to the rear is a sign of maturity.

As far as the others go, I would graciously and politely pass on #1 & #3. Although they are quite impressive as youngsters, they'd be even more impressive full grown, hard bossed and mature. I would have liked to see what both would have looked like two years later.

All three bulls are incredible, would have loved to see them in a few years. All would probably make top 20 SCI, I personally would not have taken them.

#1 is pretty green and though wide is not an attractive, fully mature buff... I would pass.

#3 is mostly silver up top, a sign he still needs to harden up some... would think about him but unless the PH was adamant and it was the last day, probably not.

#2 I would shoot in a minute if the PH said "take him"... but to each his own.

I also think it bad form to criticize another's trophy, so if any of these gentlemen were to drive up to camp with their bull in the bakkie, I would give them a hearty "well done" and a "please share the story"...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Luyt:
All would probably make top 20 SCI[QUOTE]

John, you got that right. They ARE all SCI top 20 (photos 1 & 2 are tied at 6th overall, and photo 3 is 11th overall). Plus you caused me to start this thread when you wrote (on another thread) " ... on the Buffalo scoring issue. It needs to be addressed, just look at the pic's of the top scoring buffalo in SCI's record books over the past 10 years.”

So I did look. I don’t think SCI encourages the shooting of younger bulls, but their scoring system seems to. It just doesn’t seem right.

I’ve never had the privilege of hunting Cape Buffalo – though I have been to Africa six times and hunted in three African countries. But if and when I ever do get to hunt buff, I’ll be looking for the gnarliest, nastiest, fight-worn, scarred old dugga. Records be damned.

quote:

I also think it bad form to criticize another's trophy

Yeah, if you want judgments from the peanut gallery, post photos of your own stuff not some innocents.

Hard to tell absolutely from the photograph but #2 might fit the bill. 1 and 3 no thanks.

All are too young and were victims of the size is everything mentality.

Buff are particularly vulnerable to this mindset since very young ones can be very wide.

Age before inches, my friends, age before inches.

When will we learn? Record books do not tell the whole story.

Jbrown,
I dont know what I would do, to be completely honest, I'm looking to plan my first buff hunt here in the near future...I have shot plenty of plainsgame...

I normally don't get down to the nitty gritty with my taxidermist, I guess we will have to see.

However, again, it is easy to make claims sitting here at the computer vs on the sticks!

quote:

So I did look. I don’t think SCI encourages the shooting of younger bulls, but their scoring system seems to. It just doesn’t seem right.

Steve did you happen to notice that bull number two was in the top five SCI buff? Check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Luyt:
All would probably make top 20 SCI[QUOTE]

John, you got that right. They ARE all SCI top 20 (photos 1 & 2 are tied at 6th overall, and photo 3 is 11th overall). Plus you caused me to start this thread when you wrote (on another thread) " ... on the Buffalo scoring issue. It needs to be addressed, just look at the pic's of the top scoring buffalo in SCI's record books over the past 10 years.”

So I did look. I don’t think SCI encourages the shooting of younger bulls, but their scoring system seems to. It just doesn’t seem right.

I’ve never had the privilege of hunting Cape Buffalo – though I have been to Africa six times and hunted in three African countries. But if and when I ever do get to hunt buff, I’ll be looking for the gnarliest, nastiest, fight-worn, scarred old dugga. Records be damned.

Man, IMO, it would be hard to pass up any of the three.
It is a nice sentiment to imagine what these bulls would look like in a few years, but unfortunately the opportunity would most likely never come up. Sometimes it just comes down to the "it's there, you're there" scenario. Take it or never see it again.
Really, my ideal buff is like the one Ross Seyfreid took with his Selous plated Gibbs Farquharson. His horns dropped enough to rest on the ground even with his chin. Super nice looking.

I don't actually own a trophy measuring tape.

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
I don't actually own a trophy measuring tape.

I bet you do



Nevertheless I can assure you that those you posted won't make it in top 10 SCI book ...but would strike on top of first & only page of "mouse93's-thin sheet"

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:











I don't actually own a trophy measuring tape.

REAL TROPHIES!

Makes the ones posted before look like cows!

Saeed don't forget the one you got last year - I sincerely envy you on this one and just hope to (someday) get anything near it...:





Still I congratulate you!

My warrior

Mike Was the hole in his head your first shot?

Now for comparison's sake look at the photos posted at the top of the thread...and then scroll down and look at the one's posted by Phillip A. and retreever.

Blend the width and curl drop from the opening post to the hardened bossed buffs of those posted further down. If you can imagine that image, that's the kind of buffalo SCI would like you to harvest.

Sure the record book is great to enter, but with a little perseverance and a tad more selectivity a discerning hunter can accomplish both goals.

We face the same dilemna with eland hunting. It's sorta easy to make the book with a younger male because their horns tend to be longer, but their heads are bald often lacking any tuft.

The mature eland trophy has a full tuft of hair and with perseverance and persistence, a hunter can find nice length and a full tuft of hair.

In the end it's up to the hunter to decide his own trophy. The physical attributes I prefer above are based on experience hunting them. On my first dangerous game safari, I can easily see myself smoking any of those young three above, but now it's different. I'm looking for the complete package in a buffalo. I hope to get him one day. I think his nickname is "Ninja" and he's lurking somewhere in Masailand. I'm also hoping he has the name "Moja" written on him somewhere.

I can attest to the fact that Phillip A does not own a tape measure!!! Steve (Sharari) had to do all the measuring on my critters when I was hunting with them in April. Steve measured for his records I could not tell you what anything I got measures. check the pictures on Phillips web site

there are some monster bulls in the Karamoja area of Uganda

Man yall are an entertaining lot. I love the self righteousness and prieching that gets batted around here. I really like how so many of us are now certified buffalo biologists.

I like how many here have been called "arm chair quarterbacks". When in reality that gives many of yall too much credit. See an "armchair quarterback" watches an entire football game from the safety of his living room and bashes all people involved drawing from his limited football experience he gained warming a sideline bench during highschool. Yall don't even know anything about what happened in the game. Yall see the photo of the guy standing in the end-zone, days later, and have no idea how he got there, but you bash him for being in the endzone. Just be happy for folks out there playing the game.Most of those guys would have shot the same buffalo you did but just by luck they saw something bigger and shot it instead. That is no reason to bash them.

By the way the 2nd pic that Philip A posted is one of the coolest buff I have ever seen. Did anyone notice that bull has had his eye gouged out. Muy Macho!

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
REAL TROPHIES!

Makes the ones posted before look like cows!

Absolutely!

Great old dugga boys, Philip A.

Those old boys are true trophy bulls!

And quality like that cannot, and should not, be measured.

Also great photos of Saeed's and Mike's old bulls.

No young and soft bull, no matter how wide, can top trophies like those.