I don’t know about you guys, but when the PH tells me to shoot a certain buff or any other animal, I am too busy trying to put the crosshairs on its vitals instead of looking at its horns. That spit second it takes to look at its horn could have been your only chance to shoot.

I guess what baffles me is this, why do we have to call trophies that are way past their prime??

Now I saw prime, in a general sense... do you guys hunt elk that have completely broken off tips and poor body condition bc they are super old??? Mule deer with just spikes? bears with no hair...how about gemsbok that have broken horns???

How about you sheep hunters, are you guys shooting rams with broken off curls, just knobs on their heads?

This mighty than thou..I shot a cape buff with no horns left...and that makes him a trophy.

WHY, why is he more of a trophy???

I thought trophies are trophies because you got out there and harvested them, in a legal manner...not because you found the blind one, with both his horns knocked off.

different strokes for different folks

quote:

Originally posted by samir:
I don’t know about you guys, but when the PH tells me to shoot a certain buff or any other animal, I am too busy trying to put the crosshairs on its vitals instead of looking at its horns. That spit second it takes to look at its horn could have been your only chance to shoot.

My only buff so far is much like #2, fully formed, but soft boss.

Was that what I wanted to take, no. Was I checking his bosses, nope my scope was on his shoulders on a broadside shot.

Most importantly I'm not letting the soft boss ruin my memory of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
WHY, why is he more of a trophy???

No worries there - it is still each to his own - Lou Hallamore (Nyati the book):

"Does the trophy look good? If the answer is 'yes' then take it, for at the end of the day the buffalo hunt in itself overrides the number of inches the trophy measures"



Now from my point - just my point that counts for me only and doesn't apply to anyone else...

I can't help it but the way I was brought up (I come from a hunting family - Xth gen. or something as far as I know) I was always thought to look beyond "The Trophy" - to look at any animal as a whole not just at "something" that carries The Trophy. Besides, after taking a couple of trophies, I soon got the point in amount of effort+luck needed to bag an animal according to its age - it is that simple - the older the animal, the rariest, wisest, experienced...it is, the more effort/luck it is needed to bag it + you know that taking out an older specimen helps in management aspect - I haven't heard anybody object taking out an old animal so far - tho many grunted and rised their eyebrows on soft/hairy bossed buffalo - one should listen to the grapewine around campfires...tho still the Lou Hallamore's quote applies.

So if I may explain my point in picture - look at that Buffalo




Look BEYOND it's horns - Hey don't look at those folks - (those gnarled bosses are just plain great tho) never mind the broken tip and lack of spread...LOOK at it - it is A BUFFALO not a set of horns! Try to imagine...that animal should count what? - 20 years? Meaning 20 years of fighting the droughts, lions, hunters...you name it - it is all written on His face...that guy has seen it all and at the end it is your privilege to take HIM (count the odds that are saying that you are coming on a hunt for a couple of days from tens of thousands miles away/on his teritory against his 20 years of excperience on the ground)...can you feel it? I sure do - still no worries - Lou's quote still aplies...

It seems like, all things considered, it's sort of like PBR scoring - about 50% bull, 50% ride (hunt).

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I guess what baffles me is this, why do we have to call trophies that are way past their prime??

Now I saw prime, in a general sense... do you guys hunt elk that have completely broken off tips and poor body condition bc they are super old??? Mule deer with just spikes? bears with no hair...how about gemsbok that have broken horns???

How about you sheep hunters, are you guys shooting rams with broken off curls, just knobs on their heads?

This mighty than thou..I shot a cape buff with no horns left...and that makes him a trophy.

WHY, why is he more of a trophy???

I thought trophies are trophies because you got out there and harvested them, in a legal manner...not because you found the blind one, with both his horns knocked off.

I would like to argue that there has been a major shift in hunting for size & tape measures in the last 50 years or so and this is largely driven by "Americanisation" of hunting world wide. Yes there are a few American exceptions - but by and large I believe this is the case.

Americanisation has its mark in skinny models with big implants, cars with big engines & poor design, motorcycles with big noise and poor performance, rifles & calibers with big velocity and limited craftsman skills & aesthetic ...the list goes on. Again please read my disclaimer about exceptions above.

The example of a bull elk as a trophy is a classic case & is applicable to all big game species in the US. The focus on big racks, typical, non-typical etc. just results in the herd being managed. You do not often see really old animals with declining antlers. I remember many years ago Boddington hunting the Apache reserve in New Mexico which had been closed to hunting for many years & taking a huge bull elk with massive antlers way beyond its prime. That is a classic example of such animals just not being available in the US any more.

I suppose it is like comparing a wife of 20 years with a "trophy" wife of a celebrity in a glossy magazine....that is what sells in today's commercial world....very "American" if I may say so.

If I see a beautiful buffalo (and those in the first pictures posted are beautiful in the curvature, proportions, and general harmony of the horns and probably the body), I'd rather see it again the next time I come around.

I'd feel bad to kill it just so I can hang it over my fireplace: it's an animal in pefect health, going about his business, and he did nothing to pick an argument with me.

An old buff who has clearly lived his life, seen many fights, got through everything a buff can go through and overcome it, gets my respect. But he's old, his horns can't really open the belly of a lion or chase an opponent anymore, and before next season he'll probably end up chewed alive by lions, or worse by hyenas after getting a battering from a bullying youngster. A shameful death for the old bugger.

I'd rather give him one last fight, one last occasion to stand up and face something, and a swift death.

I think he deserves it.

Now, I live where I can just hop in my car and drive down to some place where i can see the buffs, and if I want more African memories I just go and pick them round the corner. I do understand that someone would like to fix that moment in time and look at it once in a while.

I'm not judging anything about trophies, just giving my humble opinion about the whole thing.

If it isn't about the horns why are you shooting bulls?

Because they have bosses! Which is still horn

I won't believe any of yall's selfrighteous dribble about your crusade for the perfect buffalo untill someone posts up a picture of a pathetic grey skinned almost hornless cow buffalo, and then state her to be the grandest trophy you have ever taken. Or even better that you have booked your COW buffalo hunt this year and you a praying you will find a hornless grandma to poke a hole in. Most cow buffalo I have ever dealt with have been as smart or smarter than the bulls I have dealt with, so the hunt should be just as gratifying. Right? This is a childish arguement involving people's tastes.

I can remember a PH asking me what I was looking for in my first buffalo. Did I like heavy bosses, or drop, or long hooks, or wide? I smiled and told him I want it all. I set my sites very high for buffalo because I know it will be a very hard order to fill. And the harder it is to find the buffalo I want, then the longer I get to spend looking for him. And thats what it is about for me. Playing the game. Lots and lots of time playing the game, and once in a while I win big.

Ben

Oryxhunter has a point. I wouldn’t shoulder mount a really old buff with horns worn to nubs. Not that I wouldn’t shoot it, but I’d get it skull-mounted. Those really old buff just look too sad.

There seems to be a time in a buffalo’s life when it would make the best trophy.

What a small world.

The buffalo in the middle of SteveGl post was actually killed by my wife. It is one of the finest buffalo I have ever seen. We actually went in to kill this buff not knowing how large he was. He had tried to flatten a gamescout a few hours before and we went to "sort" him out. Everything went down real fast and when we finally walked up on him only then did we realize how monsterous he was. He is the only completely solid bossed buffalo I have ever seen with horn tips as long as his. Great width, Great drop, great bosses, and super long tips. It really is a dream buff.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
What a small world.

The buffalo in the middle of SteveGl post was actually killed by my wife. It is one of the finest buffalo I have ever seen. We actually went in to kill this buff not knowing how large he was. He had tried to flatten a gamescout a few hours before and we went to "sort" him out. Everything went down real fast and when we finally walked up on him only then did we realize how monsterous he was. He is the only completely solid bossed buffalo I have ever seen with horn tips as long as his. Great width, Great drop, great bosses, and super long tips. It really is a dream buff.

Ben

Yes. Great Buff. Congrats to your wife. Also, I thought that TriState did an extraordinary job in capturing that buff's attitude. I've used that photo before - got it from the rear cover of African Hunter magazine (without anyone's permission of course). Plus, it's got a gashed, scarred lip which just adds to its character.



: : :

Well once again, people, want to put certain animals in certain categories....

Buff on a pedistal... I would love to see their Bongo pictures, of a bongo with just broken nubs on their head, ot Lord Derby with two giant busted studs poking out! You never hear about how great of a fighter they need to be!!!

Phillip A "I'd feel bad to kill it just so I can hang it over my fireplace: it's an animal in pefect health, going about his business, and he did nothing to pick an argument with me."

I would venture to say, that 99% of all the animals I've killed, and hopefully 95% of the animals I've eaten have been in good perfect working health, free of disease or anything else.

Now, I've yet to have any animal pick a fight with me, granted I dont live in africa...but just because you stumble across some "famous scrumcap", how in the world does that constitute picking a fight? Again, this boils down to once you shoot enough buffs, that are prolly very nice, you don't mind wasting a few dinks...but Trophy hunters...(NOW THIS IS ONLY CERTAIN PEOPLE, ridiculous, you have to qualify every statement on AR, because someone is waiting to pop off, "Ohh not me...blah blah) who are paying big bucks to come hunt don't want to just shoot CULL, past prime buffs and pay mucho grande bucks to do so!

I would love to see oufitters, start advertising "very large broken off scrumcap buff hunts, 10 days, 12.5k, plus 2700 trophy fee, guaranteed spreed less than 24", old, sick, [might pick a fight with you]....when I see that at the "evil lords convention [SCI, I say this in Jest, because I'm an SCI supporter]" or DSC (for some reason, no one ever has anything negative to say about DSC [interesting side bar], then I will start to believe that indeed is what MOST people want to hunt.

NAKIHUNTER- if you want to start crapping on americans, saying we've doomed the hunting world by looking for inches, lets not forget who published the 1st big game record book, good of James Rowland Ward...and he's a british guy...maybe great grandpa to some Kiwis. His book is reveered as the "holy grail for hunting records".... Even SAEED made a comment in the past few days, about how it's the only "good record book" (paraphrasing)

You can complain that americans have turned it into an inches game...but if you look throughout history, life has always been a competition, and now since it's not a question of how many soldiers have you slain, or how many kingdoms have you conquered, it sometimes falls into the "How big was he" category.

Same goes for how many points did you score in last nights game, even more incredible, MY TEAM BEAT YOUR TEAM....ALL BLACKS WIN! Have you never celebrated your team's victory over another?

Ironically, if us American's have Americanized world hunting so terribly, amazing that so many outfitters fly to the States every January to try and PANDER to us Americans who have destroyed the integrity and tradition of hunting. They too must be considered guilty...

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
lets not forget who published the 1st big game record book, good of James Rowland Ward...and he's a british guy...maybe great grandpa to some Kiwis. His book is reveered as the "holy grail for hunting records

From the Rowland Ward website:

The Book, the name by which Rowland Ward ’s Records of Big Game is known to all hunters around the world, is the one universally accepted and objective source which establishes what a trophy animal really is, whether you are hunting in Australia or Austria, Brazil or Botswana, China or Czechoslovakia. Rowland Ward ’s Records of Big Game was established over 100 years ago to set down details of game animals as a matter of interest to the Sportsmen.

It was not and is not there to establish records in the sense of biggest or best, nor to glorify the hunter. It celebrates the animal and it does not matter whether the animal’s horns, tusks or teeth were picked up in the veld from one that had died of natural causes, was killed by a predator or was shot by a hunter.

By establishing the benchmark for what constitutes a trophy (particularly where the standards are high), The Book makes a most valuable contribution to ensure that trophy hunters concentrate on those big, old, lone males which have long since passed on their genes to younger generations.

The Book also serves as an excellent and objective conservation tool. It stands to reason that, where trophy standards have increased over time in a particular region, in all likelihood, sound conservation practices have been applied, while the converse is probably also true. These facts, in turn are also valuable research tools for the hunter in deciding where, when and with whom he wants to hunt a particular species.

In addition, The Book is a valuable source of knowledge on the distribution of game and its taxonomic features as well as an historical, geographical and biological record which few other sources can match.

: : :

Steve,
I've read the website, and agree that that was Rowland Ward's mission...but again, if that was the only reason for it's existance why would they put people's name's in it, vs. just listing the measurements...

People love to compete on any level, and size of hunting trophies is no different!

Since Cows pass on genes too, what Cow horn specs should I shoot the next time I have another cow for bait permit. How about Cow specs for those in culling operations?
Now that I have been a smartazz, I would NOT shoot Buff #1, probably not shoot Buff #3 and likely shoot Buff #2.....decisive bloke aren't I !
After a hunt in TAN for PG, my PH and friend John Greeff had a couple of days off so I took him and me on our first photo Safari. Went to the Crater, while shooting hundreds of pics, John said I sure am glad we can't hunt here. I gave him a quizzical look and he said their bodies are so damn big I don't know how to judge their damn horns! John had only been in TAN a few weeks on his first gig there with TanWiCo.

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
.....NAKIHUNTER- if you want to start crapping on Americans, .....,.

.........Same goes for how many points did you score in last nights game, even more incredible, MY TEAM BEAT YOUR TEAM....ALL BLACKS WIN! Have you never celebrated your team's victory over another?

Ironically, if us American's have Americanized world hunting so terribly, amazing that so many outfitters fly to the States every January to try and PANDER to us Americans who have destroyed the integrity and tradition of hunting. They too must be considered guilty...

I apologize if I came across as American bashing. I was just trying to make a point about the commericlisation of everything in the last 50 years & the US is the capital of all modern commercialism. Yes history is full of domination & dominance - each era & each culture has its legends & contests.

The rugby & sport analogy really appeals to me. Do I remember any of the games where we won by 20 or 30 points. Hardly. But I remember the great game of 2000 when Taine Randall passed to Jonah Lomu for the winning try in the last second of the game, after the Aussies had fought back form 23-0 or some such deep hole after just 20 minutes. Yes, I remember John Eals kicking the winning goal in the last second of the game, in the Wellington wind, to break our hearts.

In cricket I remember the real contests and the performance against top opposition. Yes we Indians love to take it to the Aussies. Who remembers or cares about Hayden scoring 380 against Zimbabwe? I would any day prefer to watch Border or Waugh fight out a great knock than watch Ponting bully average bowlers. Yes Ponting is a top player but his record is best in good conditions. He has few performances that were real tough battles. Border & Waugh built their reputation on success in adversity. That is just my personal view & not a criticism of Ponting.

If you read my thread again you will see that my discussion was about the philosophy & not about right or wrong. I would have shot any of those buffalo if I had the chance. If I had a choice, I would take hard big boss over spread. I would also take deep hooks over spread because I just like big boss and big hooks.

By the way the world record buffalo according to JA Hunter is a cow with 62 inch spread! Would I pass up on such a cow? No certainly not. Would I book a hunt for a buffalo cow with 50+ inch spread? Certainly not.

CRICKET???? People actually watch Cricket??

I should get at least a four for that response!

Not sure about the direction this debate has taken.

It's not that the oldest buffalo are necessarily the absolute best buffalo, from a trophy perspective.

It's more that they are far, far better trophies than the younger and soft ones exemplified by the first three shown above.

IMHO, the best buffalo trophy would be any of the first three bulls after a few more years of of growth and maturation.

Just at or after the "leaving the herd to be a dugga boy" stage. When the boss is fully formed and fully hardened. When the horn tips are broomed and the curls are at their deepest. When they've sown their oats and improved the gene pool to the maximum for future generations.

Old, hard, deep and wide is best, no argument there.

But if I may presume to speak for the "age before inches" faction, what we mean is that old - even, or especially, old and beat to hell and back - is far more preferable than young, soft and wide.

BTW, Nakihunter, I think this problem is all the fault of the Kiwis.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
........
But if I may presume to speak for the "age before inches" faction, what we mean is that old - even, or especially, old and beat to hell and back - is far more preferable than young, soft and wide.

BTW, Nakihunter, I think this problem is all the fault of the Kiwis.

Yes we Kiwis have the world's biggest red stags - 68 inch main beam, 45 point on each side, 50 kg of neck muscle so the stag can carry the weight of the antler. The profile of the stags now have a long & "S" shaped necked and the taxidermists are now using new design moulds for the mounts!

The man with the biggest d#*k and $250,000 cash can shoot the stag by pressing "Enter" on his key board and the trophy will be delivered at his door in 6 months.

Is a specific caliber, bullet and rifle manufactor required before I press enter and then shoot?

mouse93- Spot on!!!!! Thats what it is about!!!

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Look BEYOND it's horns - Hey don't look at those folks - (those gnarled bosses are just plain great tho) never mind the broken tip and lack of spread...LOOK at it - it is A BUFFALO not a set of horns! Try to imagine...that animal should count what? - 20 years? Meaning 20 years of fighting the droughts, lions, hunters...you name it - it is all written on His face...that guy has seen it all and at the end it is your privilege to take HIM (count the odds that are saying that you are coming on a hunt for a couple of days from tens of thousands miles away/on his teritory against his 20 years of excperience on the ground)...can you feel it? I sure do - still no worries - Lou's quote still aplies...

Just out of curiosity - did you have it mounted? Photo?

: : :

quote:

Originally posted by Oryxhunter1983:
I would shoot every single one, and anyone else who says, "oh they are too young, and soft bosses, I would pass!!! is a liar!"

I did turn a close to if not 48" young bull down in Karamoja.

Actually that is a lie...I didn't turn him down...we never even considered shooting him.

Lane,
I think I have a picture of that bull. His he have shallow curls but really long horn?

quote:

Originally posted by SteveGl:

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Look BEYOND it's horns - Hey don't look at those folks - (those gnarled bosses are just plain great tho) never mind the broken tip and lack of spread...LOOK at it - it is A BUFFALO not a set of horns! Try to imagine...that animal should count what? - 20 years? Meaning 20 years of fighting the droughts, lions, hunters...you name it - it is all written on His face...that guy has seen it all and at the end it is your privilege to take HIM (count the odds that are saying that you are coming on a hunt for a couple of days from tens of thousands miles away/on his teritory against his 20 years of excperience on the ground)...can you feel it? I sure do - still no worries - Lou's quote still aplies...

Just out of curiosity - did you have it mounted? Photo?

: : :

That is a photo of one of my buffalo. And no, I did not have it mounted. I already have far too many buffalo mounted.

Saeed,
To many mounts is a problem I wish I could have

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
........
But if I may presume to speak for the "age before inches" faction, what we mean is that old - even, or especially, old and beat to hell and back - is far more preferable than young, soft and wide.

BTW, Nakihunter, I think this problem is all the fault of the Kiwis.

Yes we Kiwis have the world's biggest red stags - 68 inch main beam, 45 point on each side, 50 kg of neck muscle so the stag can carry the weight of the antler. The profile of the stags now have a long & "S" shaped necked and the taxidermists are now using new design moulds for the mounts!

Nakihunter, you are a good sport.

We have some whitetail deer "ranches" here in the USA that can certainly compete on the "freak" scale.

And highly well known by their videos which prove there is nothing to hunting Whitetails. Elk Sheep or Turkey.