quote:

Originally posted by MJines:


I was referring to the hunt on TAA. The ele was not brained, was still on its feet and was starting to turn away. That is a classic case that calls for a back up.

That's the way I saw it too. Great white hunter only staggered the bull. He went down when hit by the PH.

As far as the shirt grabbing goes, I hope my PH guides me that way. What with jet ear and tinnitus I'd welcome not having to judge what I thought he just said.

there is a fine line between backing up and "Boom-Boom" faster than most can shoot a double. And this guy had a bolt gun. I guess it comes down to who kills the game.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
there is a fine line between backing up and "Boom-Boom" faster than most can shoot a double. And this guy had a bolt gun. I guess it comes down to who kills the game.

Rich

It is not a fine line. Shooting all the time is more a MS move than any dreaded fear of saving their momma from an enraged buff or elephant.

Rich, you did it again. You have all these guys pissing on each other back and forth and all the while you are probably throwing you're elbow out patting yourself on the back and laughing.

About 99% of my posts here the last couple of years are a question. They are meant to generate some serious discussion about what is "proper".
It is interesting to see how some people will try and justify taking shortcuts.
I hear this "gray area" thing and "situational ethics" bandied around; although nobody wants to admit that they do so.

Rich
DRSS

You ask questions and what you get is opinions. Everyone has one, just like a__ Holes. Seldom do these type of debates alter ones mind set. Their personal experiences may dictate their position.
It is just silly to think you can berate a individuals opinion and get them come around to see your perspective.
Rich, what you perceive as "proper" may not parallel anothers perception on a topic. If we entered these discussions with an open mind we might have a real think tank. There are no absolutes!
This forum is not going to establish the "standard" by which hunting is conducted. That is very arrogant.

EZ

quote:

Dave feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I heard Dawson say on one episode of Tracks that he fires a backup shot routinely whenever someone is on their FIRST dangerous game hunt/ FIRST dangerous animal.

Caleb,

100% for sure you are correct. AD made that statement on a TAA episode in the early days of the show when he and Paul were doing most of the hunting.

I can still see him sitting in the shade under a sausage tree wearing his "BUD" cap when he said that.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Here is the agreement that I have had with the PHs that I have hunted with.

They are ONLY to shoot when:

1. I take a brain shot on elephant and the animal doesn't go down at the shot then turns and runs. I ask them to heart/lung it as my ego isn't big enough to allow an animal that I wounded to escape. I'll eat the fact that my shot wasn't good enough.

2. When following a wounded DG animal. If possible he will get me in position for the shot if not he is to take it.

3. Any time he feels that animal is endangering any of the crew.

465H&H

Excellent ground rules. I have added a qualifier in RED.

I have also had an understanding with my each of my PHs that he may shoot any wounded animal we are after, dangerous or not, if there is no time to maneuver, and if he has a clear shot and I do not.

That would be my recollection also without going back and viewing the tape again. That also has not been my expereince in any of the places and different safari companies I've hunted with. I understand the theory that it prevents a wounded and dangerous animal from getting away and I welcome a back up as necessary but not a routine cover shot. What if the client misses totally and the buffalo is retrieved with only one hole in it????????

Mark

I can't always tell whether a well hit animal is mortally wounded or not. If it is a dangerous animal in thick cover a ph will likely tend to err on the side of caution and shoot unless you tell him otherwise. I wasted two safari days chasing my cousin's zebra once. Amazing how far they can go with an arrow in the lungs. Now I'm more inclined to let the ph shoot if he thinks it is necessary. Also some safari clients clearly aren't up to the physical challenge of chasing after wounded big game animals.

Tiny sample size - 2 buffalo 2 different PHs; I told each PH "use your judgment, if you think that you should shoot, do so." First buff - 5 shots to put it down, second - 2, PH didn't fire in either case.
Question - has ANYONE here actually had a PH shoot when you feel that he shouldn't have? Three pages of philosophy and hot air about something that I have yet to hear has actually happened.
re: TAA and MS - the clients involved seem to be quite satisfied with their PH's actions. My opinion is that we are spewing hot air about something that virtually never occurs.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
That would be my recollection also without going back and viewing the tape again. That also has not been my expereince in any of the places and different safari companies I've hunted with. I understand the theory that it prevents a wounded and dangerous animal from getting away and I welcome a back up as necessary but not a routine cover shot. What if the client misses totally and the buffalo is retrieved with only one hole in it????????

Mark

quote:

re: TAA and MS - the clients involved seem to be quite satisfied with their PH's actions. My opinion is that we are spewing hot air about something that virtually never occurs.

It occurs on TAA fairly routinely.

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
Tiny sample size - 2 buffalo 2 different PHs; I told each PH "use your judgment, if you think that you should shoot, do so." First buff - 5 shots to put it down, second - 2, PH didn't fire in either case.
Question - has ANYONE here actually had a PH shoot when you feel that he shouldn't have? Three pages of philosophy and hot air about something that I have yet to hear has actually happened.
re: TAA and MS - the clients involved seem to be quite satisfied with their PH's actions. My opinion is that we are spewing hot air about something that virtually never occurs.

The PH's I hunt with have two quotes I like.

1) We consider it a good year and job well doen if we never fire our rifles.

2) The last thing we want to do is shoot your animal.

This appears to be usual practice with some outfitters. You can see how they conduct business when they are constantly on TV.

Terry,

Though not in Africa...I had a "PH" in Argentina pull the shadow shot, boom/boom, immediately on an Asian buff back in March.

The buff turned to walk away in the open at 30 yards, and I put one right behind his left ear. Needless to say, collapsing...the immediate second shot, scared the crap out of me, and the "PH" gut shot the buff. I was pissed to say the least, and in my opinion, it ruined a good piece of video, and my experience.

Mike Robinson, I agree with your #1 and #3....which is discussed with PH ahead of time...#2....no....if he can get himself in position, he can get me in position!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Here is the agreement that I have had with the PHs that I have hunted with.

They are to shoot when:

1. I take a brain shot on elephant and the animal doesn't go down at the shot then turns and runs. I ask them to heart/lung it as my ego isn't big enough to allow an animal that I wounded to escape. I'll eat the fact that my shot wasn't good enough.

2. When following a wounded DG animal. If possible he will get me in position for the shot if not he is to take it.

3. Any time he feels that animal is endangering any of the crew.

465H&H

Excellent ground rules. I have added a qualifier in RED.

I have also had an understanding with my each of my PHs that he may shoot any wounded animal we are after, dangerous or not, if there is no time to maneuver, and if he has a clear shot and I do not.

I didn't add ONLY because there very well could be a situation that I haven't accounted for in tIhe above three agreed to rules. I trust that the PH will use his discretion and not shoot unless he really thinks it necessary.

465H&H

I think you HAVE to trust your PH. It's why you hired him. HIRED HIM! That means he works FOR YOU! However, some of them appear to abuse that trust.
The phrase "back up" means assist you if you need the help. It is entirely different from "I got your back.".

If you can't kill your game cleanly, you have failed the test.

Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?

Is it an inability to admit you screwed something important up that could get you or someone else killed?

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

If you can't kill your game cleanly, you have failed the test.

Rich

I stopped takin tests after my second go round in college.

I'm heading to Africa for a good time which will include hunting.

I gather, that means you flunked out of school...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I gather, that means you flunked out of school...

Rich

BZZZT!! Wrong answer, try again.

quote:

The PH's I hunt with have two quotes I like.

1) We consider it a good year and job well doen if we never fire our rifles.

2) The last thing we want to do is shoot your animal.

This is the type of PH I like hunting with!!!!!!!!

Frosty,

Brrrrrrrrrrp!! Wrong answer on your part


"I stopped takin tests...". That is hard to equate with staying in school after the end of that semester. Besides, it's taking tests.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Frosty,

Brrrrrrrrrrp!! Wrong answer on your part


"I stopped takin tests...". That is hard to equate with staying in school after the end of that semester. Besides, it's taking tests.

Rich

Rich,

Looks like you may have had trouble with reading comprehension if you did attend school.

"I stopped takin tests after my second go round in college."

Samir
Only if you shoot flawlessly, on every occasion, like ledvem. His PH must insist on sniper certification cards from perspective clients prior to booking. The rest of us have much to learn.
Thank GOD there are some here who are always on hand to point out how we do it wrong. How else will me and my dumbass team learn the right way to do things over there in that place we spend filming in from April to October .
I will pass on to my PH friends the wisdom I have learned here on my computer. As I do, I am sure they will bow to more experienced.

Priceless!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Samir
Only if you shoot flawlessly, on every occasion, like ledvem. His PH must insist on sniper certification cards from perspective clients prior to booking. The rest of us have much to learn.
Thank GOD there are some here who are always on hand to point out how we do it wrong. How else will me and my dumbass team learn the right way to do things over there in that place we spend filming in from April to October .
I will pass on to my PH friends the wisdom I have learned here on my computer. As I do, I am sure they will bow to more experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Samir
Only if you shoot flawlessly, on every occasion, like ledvem. His PH must insist on sniper certification cards from perspective clients prior to booking. The rest of us have much to learn.
Thank GOD there are some here who are always on hand to point out how we do it wrong. How else will me and my dumbass team learn the right way to do things over there in that place we spend filming in from April to October .
I will pass on to my PH friends the wisdom I have learned here on my computer. As I do, I am sure they will bow to more experienced.

Sounds like a DNC tactic. Don't address the subject at hand.

Many seem to be blindly in love with their PH's and willfully accept any of their actions. If anyone questions their behavior out come their lovers in defense of their accosted mates.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Samir
Only if you shoot flawlessly, on every occasion, like ledvem. His PH must insist on sniper certification cards from perspective clients prior to booking. The rest of us have much to learn.
Thank GOD there are some here who are always on hand to point out how we do it wrong. How else will me and my dumbass team learn the right way to do things over there in that place we spend filming in from April to October .
I will pass on to my PH friends the wisdom I have learned here on my computer. As I do, I am sure they will bow to more experienced.

I'm glad you got that out of the way! It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong! Rich will be happy to give you his cell number, so you can just satellite him from the field in the future with your hunting dilemas.

Brett

IMHO, anyone that never says he needs backup from a PH is either a liar or hasn't spent much time hunting dangerous game.

465H&H

quote:

IMHO, anyone that never says he needs backup from a PH is either a liar or hasn't spent much time hunting dangerous game.

465H&H

Exactly!

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
IMHO, anyone that never says he needs backup from a PH is either a liar or hasn't spent much time hunting dangerous game.

465H&H

quote:

His PH must insist on sniper certification cards from perspective clients prior to booking. The rest of us have much to learn.

Nope. But they have been hunting a hell of a lot longer than most of your guys.

They have and still do hunt with some of the most reputable companies there are.

And they are just Damn professional.

465
You'da man !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
465
You'da man !!!!

Not counting myself...but I know guys that have shot all there is to shoot in Africa over a lifetime. Including multiple...multiple buff, ele, hippo, ele, lion, and leopard that have not had anyone else shoot any bullets into there game.

Sorry...just a fact.

This whole topic of back up shots is interesting. Let's flip it around. Who backs up the PH and when?

I have seen lots of examples where there is an unexpected charge by an unwounded animal and the PH is forced shoot. I would say that in well more than half of those instances, the brave client can be seen beating a quick retreat to the rear leaving the PH to back up himself. Seems like it is a lot easier for the hunters to be brave and tell the PH, "Let me put as many badly placed shots into the animal as I can before you shoot", than it is to stand their ground when the shit hits the fan.

quote:

Sounds like a DNC tactic. Don't address the subject at hand.

Will...you are the man!!!

Dave,

elucidate for this benighted heathen. I agree with the idea that if the PH has to fire, the client failed.

Are you saying the PH must shoot as soon as the client fires? If you hunt, when does your PH shoot?

Obviously, my experience cannot compare with yours. I save for a year or more to go on Safari. Most of here have to. For me, hunting Cape Buffalo was a dream since 1957 (when I first read Ruark) that came true in 2008. Returning for a plains game hunt this April took 18 months to save for.

I guess we need to differentiate between people who have to save to go and people who look at it as a way to earn a living.

That is apparently the difference.

regards,

Rich
I kill my own stuff

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
This whole topic of back up shots is interesting. Let's flip it around. Who backs up the PH and when?

I have seen lots of examples where there is an unexpected charge by an unwounded animal and the PH is forced shoot. I would say that in well more than half of those instances, the brave client can be seen beating a quick retreat to the rear leaving the PH to back up himself. Seems like it is a lot easier for the hunters to be brave and tell the PH, "Let me put as many badly placed shots into the animal as I can before you shoot", than it is to stand their ground when the shit hits the fan.

Well...there are hunters and then there are Hunters.

Frostbit,

if you'd kept on takin(g) tests you wouldn't have flunked out the first time.

Rich