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This was a good show. The gentleman hunted Bull Elephant and Buffalo. There has been discussion here before about when the PH should shoot. The client's first shot was echoed by the PH. Those of you who watched, do you think it was good follow up, or a bit premature? I thought the PH shot a bit early, but anchoring the game is important. Rich DRSS | ||
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IMO the PH's shot was a little quick. Having said that no one knows what they agreed upon before the hunt. As I have never hunted Elephant I'll assume it was the right thing to do  It is Dangerous game hunting. Probably best not to take chances. | |||
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Just my opine, one reason PH's like brain shots on elephant is that you can tell instantly whether the shot is on or not and thus whether a back up is warranted. The client's shot clearly did not brain the elephant and the PH fired. Looked appropriate to me. From earlier this season there was a hunter that told the PH not to back him up until be fired both barrels on his double. They approached the ele, client fired and missed the brain, client then proceeded to pull the front trigger again, by the time he sorted the triggers out, the elephant was headed off. Both he and the PH fired as the elephant disappeared. Tracked the elephant for the rest of the day and the next day before the elephant high tailed it to Moz and that was the end of the story on the trophy ele bull hunt. An expensive ($12,500) lesson to learn about back up shots on elephant bulls. [I did notice that the guy fired really quickly on his buffalo. The second shot was very quick but it looked to me like he was just cycling and firing and that not much aiming was taking place. Could be wrong.] Mike | |||
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The best way to avoid a PH from shooting the clients animal for them is to discuss the shooting situations beforehand. I don't want to put someone else's animal on my wall. That's why I wouldn't hunt with MS. DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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This is usually the kind of thing that is agreed to before hand by the hunter and the PH. I'm guessing that's what happened here. When you get bored with life, start hunting dangerous game with a handgun. | |||
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I usually don't comment on the TV stuff, but this same PH has been on TAA 2 weeks in a row. So this isn't about TV, it is about the PH. He immediately shot at pretty much everything there was a chance to shoot at on both shows. He didn't wait to see if the shot was right, etc. It was immediate. I didn't make a perfect brain shot last week with Buzz, but it took him a second or so to see that; this was like a guy shooting faster than you can shoot 2 shots on a double. I had a PH do it to me once, and he wasn't waiting to see if the shot was good or not. It was on a buffalo in Argentina, and I shot it behind the ear. It was crumbling, and the PH shot immediately, and gut shot it. I was pissed. I am all about not letting an animal get away wounded, etc. But good Lord...if a guy pays tens of thousands of dollars, give him the opportunity to kill the animal himself. Just my opinion... Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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Yes, the "Echo Syndrome" sadly seems to becoming more prevalent. Unless agreed upon in advance, I think if that happened to me; his gratuity would stay in my pocket and he would know why. But I would wait until the hunt was over before jeopardizing the rest of my safari. Rich | |||
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Rich, I agree, but I think I would tactfully try to convey my feelings, so it didn't echo again. In my opinion, it is robbing a guy of his experience unless it is definitely agreed upon. We have heard of this for years with bear guides in AK. If I paid $20k to shoot one bear in AK, and I hit him square in the shoulder, and my guide immediately shot him, it would rob me of the experience that I paid way too much for in the 1st place...again, just the opinion of a very imperfect shooter! Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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The client's rifle was scoped in some scenes and not scoped in others. What might have caused the removal of the scope or what might have been discused between PH and client when scope was removed we will never know. I know if I had to remove my scope, I would be wanting all the help I could get as I've never shot a big game animal sans scope. Whatever the deal was, the client looked happy. It was his safari, not mine. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Must not be an AR member, cause I've never heard anyone here admit it! ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, I agree, the guy this week seemed happy, and that is all that matters. I just thought it interesting that the PH was on 2 weeks in a row, and it seemed standard practice, and that wouldn't sit well with me. Good Hunting, Tim Herald Worldwide Trophy Adventures tim@trophyadventures.com | |||
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The hunter missed the brain shot so I can kinda see that one. But when the guy shot his buffalo it sounded to me like the PH shot as soon as the hunter did. I sure wouldn't want to hunt with a PH who is that quick on the trigger. I have only been on 5 safaris but my various PH's have never fired a shot. DRSS | |||
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When buff hunting, I think the only time,aside from immediate danger,that a PH should shoot at a clients buff is when it is evident that the buff has not been hit hard and will get away before the hunter has another chance to shoot it.A situation where the hunter and PH are trying to shoot the buff before the other guy does, can lead to the two approaching a wounded buff a little to fast, and end up in a charge,IMO.A PH should not get too "into" the hunt. | |||
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I was surprised at the quick follow up shot. Not sure what was agreed beforehand. | |||
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As has been said previously, we don't know what agreements were made between the PH and client with respect to follow-up shots. On the other hand, Mark Valero (the PH in this episode of TAA) does something else that really bothers me: He grabs the client by the shirt and drags him along to where he wants him to take his shot. I've seen some other PHs on TV do this as well, including personal favorites like Ivan Carter. If you ask me, if the PH can't communicate with the client to move in any other way but to take him by the scruff of the neck and manhandle him into position, then I would personally just as soon hunt with someone else. I grant you that perhaps these clients were thick, stupid, inexperienced, deaf, or some combination thereof; it may also be that the PH felt that their lives were imperiled and nothing else would do (although that doesn't seem to be supported by the accompanying video). But whatever the reason, it rankles me to watch - and would piss me off were it done to me. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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In the end, we have agreement; and this particular PH has established himself as an MS shoot-alike. Anyone from here considering him know knows what they are in for. That may be a good thing to remember. Rich DRSS | |||
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Rich, Give it a rest on all acounts! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Bill, I must have mentioned t his before. We were trying to shoot a buffalo cow for bait. We found a herd, and set ourselves up ahead of them. They were feeding to pass next to us, and we waited quite a long time. The cow we were after started walking towards us, but no clear shot because of the bush. She came clear about 10 yards from us. I pulled the trigger so hard - the rifle was still on safe! - I almost fell of the shooting stick! That scared the cow as well as the rest of the herd. Luckily, they only ran a few yards and continued feeding! Roy said "I have never seen a flinch like that before"! The cow got clear, and we managed to shoot it. | |||
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Will, I admitted to doing it last year never realizing I was the first AR member to do so. You did post that you were laughing your ass off.  The hunter seemed very happy. T thought he did a good job. | |||
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As to holding the back of shirt. This is a quick efficient form of communication. And often there are two factors that one may forget ,one is the human voice at close distance and the other is that often many hunters suffer from hearing loss. Understandably that some people just do not want to be touched or find it a distraction. A friend ,a fine hunter, is missing part of a leg and the shirt technique will not work for him as balance my bet thrown off. He would be on his butt. My hearing is terrible and when a PH speaks loud enough for me to hear... rocks run. The Game Ears are great but do little in my case. As others have said, we really do not know the all the story. Two in a row is fine with me,understanding the huge cost of production on the DG hunts over w/tail and most plains game and I like to see a complete story. On the other side, the Abroad Adventures takes it too far in dragging out a South African plains game and cull hunts like a dull sit-com series.. Elton Rambin Mail/Ship: 1802 Horse Hollow Rd. Barksdale, Texas 78828 Phone: 479 461 3656 Ranch: 830-234-4366 Check our Hunt & Class Schedule at www.ftwoutfitters.com 4 Rules of Gun Safety 1/ Treat all guns as though they are loaded. 2/ Never point the muzzle at anything you do not want to shoot. 3/ Do not put your finger on trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready to shoot. 4/ Be sure of your target and safe background. | |||
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Agree that none of us know what was agreed to before hand so hard to be the judge but in my opinion the PH did shoot awfully quick. A couple of other observations if I heard it right. Early in the show the PH commented that this was the clients first African Safari so that might have had something to do with the up front agreement or the PH feeling he needed to shoot quick. His shots were almost on top of the client and yes, he really dumped the ele, not the client. Hard to say on buff but what I thought was very interesting was the clients second shot on the buffalo. It really looked like an AD to me and not at all like the shot was either aimed or planned. The rifle was not hardly to his shoulder and his face no where near the stock. All in all, still one of the best hunting shows on TV. York, SC | |||
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This gentleman started his safari shortly after my safari started in Chewore South this year. Very nice guy, we went to visit and congratulate him at the kill site while the elephant was being butchered. He seemed extremely satisfied with his hunt. Mac Mac | |||
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Will he get any royalties? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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So, all carping aside; who killed the two animals? Your opinion, if you saw the show. Rich DRSS | |||
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The client. He shot first and would pay the trophy fees as he hit both animals. | |||
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Both clients in question had requested backup shots-both weeks-both animals. Mark has had a very hard year as wounded animals go. Damn near killed on one hunt where the client DEMANDED the 'ol "no one shoots my game but me" bit. The ass shot buff ran into thick stuff, and Mark could have plugged it if Mr. Ego had let him. Seven hours later when Mark killed the thing at the end of his rifle the client was enjoying a cool drink at the cruiser ( his request).Very easy to second guess boys, not that it slows anyone down though. Many clients are not accurate shots and IMO the most dangerous thing on dangerous game safaris is the client who has the "no one shoots my game" mentality. In close cover, regardless of species, the PH often has only milliseconds to determine if the clients first shot was a killer and whether to put in an insurance shot. In my own time guiding , I confess to having tugged a shirt or two. Usually I am close to game and cannot afford to be saying to an often time semi deaf client " the bull is 15 yards away Bill, take him on the shoulder " Everything from elk to elephant seems to be bothered by that. The shirt thing is an effective way to keep the client EXACTLY where the PH wants him when crunch time is at hand. If Ivan grabbed the guy by the jacket 200 yards out, thats another thing, but in the shadow of a bull elephant, lighten up boys. Dave Fulson | |||
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I think you nailed it with those last three words......."lighten up boys". | |||
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So the saying goes! If the PH is shooting shit before the bullet from the client gets there, what's the point? The client shoots a buffalo, mortally, how does the PH know what the hell is going on? If the PH feels he needs to shoot all the game, just get the client to sit in the cruiser and he can go do it from the start. If the PH doesn't want to shoot wounded buffalo off the tip of his rifle barrel, he should find another job. That ought to stir things up!  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Could be that the PH has had the chance to witness the clients shooting ability prior to the hunt. If he feels confident in his marksmanship and knowledge of where to shoot the animal, he may not be so trigger happy. It is probably not difficult to determine the mental state of the client (anxiety) prior to the final stalk. A nervous person can easily botch a shot. As in the case with the client in the show; He may have been reading this forum to much and was planning his second shot prior to the initial believing he needed to empty his gun in his target. No telling?? EZ | |||
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I don't know Dave! It seems pretty reasonable to me to endanger someone/several other people's lives just because my ego is too big to have another bullet hole in my animal or to admit I ocasionally make a bad shot!  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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The ultimate non-endangerment is staying home? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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BINGO!!!!!!!!! | |||
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Brett I will order two of Will's books and keep one for me and send one to you. We will then both know "how to do it right" under all circumstances. I am doing my first sky diving stint this year. I was going to use a parachute, but I might be deemed a pussy, so I think I'll tell the jump master to back off, keep his two cents to himself, and let me 'glide to the ground' like a REAL MAN. Dave Fulson | |||
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Well, there is only one way the PH will never shoot. You have to brain everything, assuming the PH doesn't shoot it again before it hits the ground. Otherwise the PH has the green light to shoot every time? So from now on there will only be brain shots, and if the PH can't get you into a position to brain buff and elephant, the PH will let it go? No point in putting anyone in danger, eh? ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Dave,
Perfect! Spoken by someone who has actually been there an done that numereous times. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Will - Regardless of whether you agree with Dave, that is pretty funny!!! | |||
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Well, I don't agree. Under the supposition that the PH never wants to take any chances, then he will always be shooting, no matter what I cannot understand why anyone would go to hunt dangerous game and expect the PH to shoot the instant after he does. Why they go in the first place is a mystery to me. If some guy wants the backup, fine but don't try to whitewash this by saying the PH has a right to blaze away at everything because of the potential danger. They want the big bucks but don't want the risks? Must be nice. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will - Maybe not everyone is as confident as you, maybe not everyone shoots like you, maybe not everyone is as brave as you, maybe some of them are on their very first DG hunt, and really want the PH's help?? I don't know, just saying. But, I can only tell you from 17 plus years of guiding experience, with hundreds of clients, many of them are simply NOT capable of getting the job done, period! What you could do is go to Africa, get a PH license and spend a few years guiding ALL kinds of hunters, from all walks of life, while hunting dangerous game, that CAN, AND DO, BITE BACK!! Then you can guide and hunt your way. You can let the hunter dictate everything that goes on, and if his shots put you in harms way. Well so be it, its your job right!! | |||
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I am not referring to these two hunts, but in general: Excluding extenuating circumstances such as a broken scope or suspect ammo what type of DG hunter requests that the PH backs him up? Isn't "testing our skill when it really matters" a big reason most of us hunt dangerous game? I guess some guys don't care if they finish the job themselves as long as they get their trophy. And if it's about "killing the animal cleanly" why not ask an appie and the game scout to back you up right along with the PH? Maybe it's a character defect, but I don't feel a bit shy telling a PH, "by all means, shoot if you feel it's absolutely necessary, but please do you best to hold off and let me finish my animals." I would wager that I'm a worse shot than most on this forum, yet I have never had a PH back me up including some really tense situations. I promise you it has taken some real testicular fortitude for my PH's to hold their shots a time or two. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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The ultimate being a butt head is being willing to needlessly risk someone else's life for your pleasure. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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