Received an email from John Jackson of Conservation Force:

Today (12 February) an inspector (USF&W) seized two Botswana elephant tusks because they were mounted on bases. Nothing else like scrimshawing.

He also seized a lechwe because it had been made into a rug instead of mere skin.

The saga continues.

I'm sure the claimed reason will be something like the importer applied for import of trophies rather than worked trophies and by adding bases and/or something like felt backing or similar they have become worked trophies.

USF&WS really are a bunch of tossers and I'm astounded no individual or organisation has taken them on in court to make them understand they are servants of the people rather than masters.

Steve,

John Jackson spends his whole life in court fighting the USFWS and has done so for a great many years. You may be interested in a recent ruling which you can read here http://www.safarinewsreel.com/blog/?cat=4 Start at part 1.

The death of common sense or a hidden (maybe not so hidden) agenda?

Zig Mackintosh

Zig,

I was really (in my own subtle way) referring to the larger organisations.

I appreciate JJ does his best but I reckon he'd need considerably more money and backing than he currently has to achieve anything really significant.

USF&WS have been a rule unto themselves since at least the 1980s and I reckon it's gonna take a great deal of time, money and effort to knock them off their perch.

Steve,

You are right in that money is always tight for Conservation Force. One of the reasons that we have produced the elephant down listing from CITES Appendix I to Appendix II in Tanzania and Zambia DVD is to try and free up some of JJ time to tackle other issues. If elephant are down listed in these countries there will be no need for a CITES permit but more importantly USFWS don't get to decide if the ivory can be imported or not into the USA.

I don't know if you have had the time to read JJ blog about the Federal court case ruling but it seems to be a worrying trend. I think that taking on the US government in court is a daunting prospect however big the organization taking them on is! They don't have to worry about going over budget.

Zig Mackintosh

Zig,

I scanned it rather than read it properly and CF are certainly doing their best and as you say, it needs a big organisation with a lot of money to challenge the Govt/USF&WS etc....... but as I see it, it needs doing.

To me, the other issue that needs addressing with some urgency is the Moz elephant import situation.

I'll look forward to seeing the DVD.

Steve just can't miss an opportunity to take shots at Organizations, but NEVER at individuals as he is too PC. Wouldn't want to hurt someones feelings, well there may be some expections to the rule, eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Steve just can't miss an opportunity to take shots at Organizations, but NEVER at individuals as he is too PC. Wouldn't want to hurt someones feelings, well there may be some expections to the rule, eh.

What a bunch of horseshit.

Steve,

As you know the Mozambique elephant story is a long and complicated one. The USFWS basically wants every elephant in Mozambique accounted for.

In the coming months we will be running a series of video interviews on the Safari Newsreel website with a number of different people involved in the less glorious side of hunting. People such as such as Susan Recce, of the National Rife Association, Congressman Jeff Crane, of Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation (this foundation does a tremendous amount for the rights of the hunter which goes unheralded)John Jackson, Ron Thomson, Shane Mahoney and a number of others.

I will be sure to alert AR members as and when we air these interviews.

Zig Mackintosh

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Steve just can't miss an opportunity to take shots at Organizations, but NEVER at individuals as he is too PC. Wouldn't want to hurt someones feelings, well there may be some expections to the rule, eh.

If there's one thing I've never been in my entire life, it's politically correct.

You REALLY need to get a life Einstein.

And do me a favour. don't send me any of your ridiculous, rambling accusatory PMs because I don't read 'em before I delete 'em anyway.

Zig,

I'll look forward to it.

Here it is again!

SCI squeezes literraly millions from Africa every year, and the only thing they do is support outfitters and so called PHs who supply "trophies" captured on demand for thier score in the SCI record book!

Every time we ask what has SCI done for African hunters we get given the run around.

PROOF! That is what we want to see.

Conservation force and JJ are the only ones doing anything that can be said to be constructive for the African hunting community, while SCI is using them as the goosae that lays the golden egg!

SCI didn't do us any favors in Moz after the areial shooting incident. I think their(USFW) current policies are "payback" for the SCI heliocopter hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
SCI didn't do us any favors in Moz after the areial shooting incident. I think their(USFW) current policies are "payback" for the SCI heliocopter hunt.

Crane,

Can you elaborate on this incident?

I don't seem to recall anything about it.

I don't know the details here, but a CITES permit is very specific. I don't get it: do a lot of guys not even bother to read it?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I'm sure the claimed reason will be something like the importer applied for import of trophies rather than worked trophies and by adding bases and/or something like felt backing or similar they have become worked trophies.

USF&WS really are a bunch of tossers and I'm astounded no individual or organisation has taken them on in court to make them understand they are servants of the people rather than masters.

Steve that is a pipe dream in the USA! All government agencies are immune from lawsuits. So I guess that means they ARE masters rather than servants.

Mac,

Makes you wonder what this world will be like for the next generation huh!

Big Brother is slowly but surely taking over the world!

quote:

USF&WS really are a bunch of tossers and I'm astounded no individual or organisation has taken them on in court to make them understand they are servants of the people rather than masters.

You are correct there mate!!

quote:

Every time we ask what has SCI done for African hunters we get given the run around.

PROOF! That is what we want to see.

Amen!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Behring


Is this the helicopter incident you are referring too????

Why isn't the Congressional Sportsmen's Caucus targeted and encouraged to pressure USF&W through the 'power of the purse" to clean up their act - and change the law.

quote:

If elephant are down listed in these countries there will be no need for a CITES permit but more importantly USFWS don't get to decide if the ivory can be imported or not into the USA.

Not necessarily true- USFWS can refuse to issue import permits as they see fit. Ask anyone who has recently tried to import a polar bear from Canada or a cheetah from Namibia.

quote:

All government agencies are immune from lawsuits.

I sympathize with the sentiment expressed, but to be technically correct, that's not exactly it.

U.S. and state government agencies have been successfully sued countless times. It's usually in other areas of the law however.

There's an impressive array of hoops to jump through. There may be an administrative process first (I don't know if that's the case here), then federal court.

In other types of administrative law cases I've heard of, the attorney who's wins in challenging the government can receive a court awarded fee.

Having been through a similar experience last year, I can only empathize with the unfortunate hunter. I felt like a bone was removed from my body.

SCI was worse than worthless. The "advice" received From Nelson Freeman at SCI was completely off base. He suggested I ship the ivory back to the country of origin for redocumentation. Anyone in the US cannot export ivory without the proper documentation, so acting on that piece of wisdom is illegal.

You would think that an organization whose stated mission is would be the first and last call for those needing just this sort of help - "The staff and lobbyists, based in Washington, D.C., carry the voice of the hunter into the halls of Congress, the state legislatures, courts and international forums such as The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species, or CITES. " (Taken from the SCI website). HAH!

The subsequent release of my ivory happened when the paperwork was resubmitted correctly. The USF&W officers in Los Angeles were actually quite helpful in getting the permit correct. I also found them to be quite professional while doing their job. The analogy might be at registering a car at the DMV. If the numbers do not match, you do not get the registration.

A VERY good point was raised, that I hope other hunters take to heart - READ THE CITES PERMIT! One step further, have the shipping agents in Africa personally verify the conditions on the permit are met. This extra step ensured my leopard made it through OK. And I will not give any business to shipping agents who will not perform this simplest of jobs.

The real issue here as I see it is that the shipping agent is the culprit. Ignorance of the "worked" ivory is no excuse for allowing the export of a trophy only to be seized later.

I would like to know the names of those "agents" who failed their client - they are to avoided like the smelly fish dinner.

mrfudd,

The cheetah is listed on CITES Appendix I and whilst the polar is on Appendix II and it is not considered by CITES to be endangered, the USFWS have used the US Marine Mammal Protection Act to block the importation of legally hunted polar bear trophies into the US. Their logic is that because of global warming there is a potential that the polar bear will loose it's habitat and therefore will become endangered. This is the first time a species has been declared endangered before the fact!

But that is a whole different kettle of fish although the same organization is behind it, the USFWS.

Zig Mackintosh

So, what is the difference between a Lechwe rug and a zebra rug?

http://www.huntingreport.com/w...te.cfm?articleid=505

Link to seizure from The Hunting Report

Saeed- Kathi nailed it(thanks Kathi). I was having trouble remembering Behring. But I do think it was discussed here several years ago. I remember talking to several SCI folks who were livid over the incident and what the USFW and CITIES ramifications were going to be. As it turns out, they were spot on. And thanks for the greatest hunters venue going!

The directors of U.S. agencies are political appointees, and the actions of the career bureaucrats below them change according to the whims of each new director.

The best way to combat problems with the USFWS, BATF, IRS and other agencies is at the ballot box.

Our enemies in Congress and the guy now making those appointments need to be sent back to the rocks from which they crawled.

Bill Quimby

http://www.huntingreport.com/w...te.cfm?articleid=478

Another seizure from September 2009 of tusks

quote:

Originally posted by Zig Mackintosh:
mrfudd,

The cheetah is listed on CITES Appendix I and whilst the polar is on Appendix II and it is not considered by CITES to be endangered, the USFWS have used the US Marine Mammal Protection Act to block the importation of legally hunted polar bear trophies into the US. Their logic is that because of global warming there is a potential that the polar bear will loose it's habitat and therefore will become endangered. This is the first time a species has been declared endangered before the fact!

But that is a whole different kettle of fish although the same organization is behind it, the USFWS.

Zig Mackintosh

Seems to me that if the concern is one of higher temperatures in the acrtic, polar bears do not have a need for their coats since they would be just too hot with them....

X2!

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
The directors of U.S. agencies are political appointees, and the actions of the career bureaucrats below them change according to the whims of each new director.

The best way to combat problems with the USFWS, BATF, IRS and other agencies is at the ballot box.

Our enemies in Congress and the guy now making those appointments need to be sent back to the rocks from which they crawled.

Bill Quimby

I'm afraid that the anti-hunting sentiment at USF&WS is a lot deeper than that. Witness, if you will, the plethora of problems we all had during the Bush years, despite his attempts to bring them to heel.

The reality is that leftists tend to gravitate toward government careers -- they BELIEVE in big, intrusive government -- and toward those same government careers where they can have maximum influence over whatever specific areas they feel driven to influence -- ie animal rights; environmental issues; whatever. So, it's really only natural that, in this post 1960's world in which we live, that USF&WS would be staffed by lots of anti-hunting zealots.

Not all of USF&WS employees are unreasonable of course -- I've had many good experiences with the Service -- but, the odds against good experiences are getting longer all the time.

"Stealing" a hunter's hard-earned trophy ivory on the basis that installed bases for display change its status from "trophy" to "worked ivory" is BS -- and an unexplained and dramatic shift from decades of prior practice. This kind of thing only happens when a political agenda is at work. Unfortunately, the courts have ruled that the hunters has absolutely no legal claim on trophies declared contraband by the Service -- a true Catch 22, where the Service gets to be policeman, judge and jury by simple self-proclamation.

quote:

Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
The directors of U.S. agencies are political appointees, and the actions of the career bureaucrats below them change according to the whims of each new director.

The best way to combat problems with the USFWS, BATF, IRS and other agencies is at the ballot box.

Our enemies in Congress and the guy now making those appointments need to be sent back to the rocks from which they crawled.

Bill Quimby

I'm afraid that the anti-hunting sentiment at USF&WS is a lot deeper than that. Witness, if you will, the plethora of problems we all had during the Bush years, despite his attempts to bring them to heel.

The reality is that leftists tend to gravitate toward government careers -- they BELIEVE in big, intrusive government -- and toward those same government careers where they can have maximum influence over whatever specific areas they feel driven to influence -- ie animal rights; environmental issues; whatever. So, it's really only natural that, in this post 1960's world in which we live, that USF&WS would be staffed by lots of anti-hunting zealots.

Not all of USF&WS employees are unreasonable of course -- I've had many good experiences with the Service -- but, the odds against good experiences are getting longer all the time.

"Stealing" a hunter's hard-earned trophy ivory on the basis that installed bases for display change its status from "trophy" to "worked ivory" is BS -- and an unexplained and dramatic shift from decades of prior practice. This kind of thing only happens when a political agenda is at work. Unfortunately, the courts have ruled that the hunters has absolutely no legal claim on trophies declared contraband by the Service -- a true Catch 22, where the Service gets to be policeman, judge and jury by simple self-proclamation.

You are correct, of course, and the two politically appointed USFWS directors I knew personally probably would agree with you also.

However, both were able to nip in the bud some awful things their liberal underlings were conspiring to do.

For example, one of them came unglued many years ago when I called to tell him some of his people were working on a proposal to list all javelinas, including those in the U.S., as "threatened" because of alleged uncontrolled hide hunting in Central America.

He issued an official order and the proposal went away.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:

quote:

Originally posted by OldHandgunHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
The directors of U.S. agencies are political appointees, and the actions of the career bureaucrats below them change according to the whims of each new director.

The best way to combat problems with the USFWS, BATF, IRS and other agencies is at the ballot box.

Our enemies in Congress and the guy now making those appointments need to be sent back to the rocks from which they crawled.

Bill Quimby

I'm afraid that the anti-hunting sentiment at USF&WS is a lot deeper than that. Witness, if you will, the plethora of problems we all had during the Bush years, despite his attempts to bring them to heel.

The reality is that leftists tend to gravitate toward government careers -- they BELIEVE in big, intrusive government -- and toward those same government careers where they can have maximum influence over whatever specific areas they feel driven to influence -- ie animal rights; environmental issues; whatever. So, it's really only natural that, in this post 1960's world in which we live, that USF&WS would be staffed by lots of anti-hunting zealots.

Not all of USF&WS employees are unreasonable of course -- I've had many good experiences with the Service -- but, the odds against good experiences are getting longer all the time.

"Stealing" a hunter's hard-earned trophy ivory on the basis that installed bases for display change its status from "trophy" to "worked ivory" is BS -- and an unexplained and dramatic shift from decades of prior practice. This kind of thing only happens when a political agenda is at work. Unfortunately, the courts have ruled that the hunters has absolutely no legal claim on trophies declared contraband by the Service -- a true Catch 22, where the Service gets to be policeman, judge and jury by simple self-proclamation.

You are correct, of course, and the two politically appointed USFWS directors I knew personally probably would agree with you also.

However, both were able to nip in the bud some awful things their liberal underlings were conspiring to do.

For example, one of them came unglued many years ago when I called to tell him some of his people were working on a proposal to list all javelinas, including those in the U.S., as "threatened" because of alleged uncontrolled hide hunting in Central America.

He issued an official order and the proposal went away.

Bill Quimby

Leftists the world over suffer from incurable insomnia --

How can they sleep, knowing that there's somebody, somewhere, enjoying himself without their permisiion.